Humor in Fantasy

[Haphazard]

"Jokes are against the rules, except for very bad combersome jokes cracked by guards, mercenaries, other peoples, and servitors. (It is believed that the Management in fact thinks that these are very good jokes, and treasures them.) Everyone else must be deadly serious, although the small man, some wizards, and most bad kings are allowed to have a sense of humor -- see also Thieves' Guild."

--"Jokes," The Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Diana Wynne Jones

Your standard, stereotypical fantasy novel does not have much humor in it. And, for a measure, this makes sense -- humor is created by twisting things that are familiar in new and inventive ways. Many times, a writer must assume that the reader knows little about the world in fantasy (with the exception of urban fantasy, but they usually don't have this problem. We're not talking about them here.), and therefore jokes and humor are difficult. However, metahumor, for example what many do is take the typical fantasy story, as described in The Tough Guide To Fantasyland, and poke fun at the model rather than keeping humor within the story. Often, though, too much of this will break the suspension of disbelief.

I think fantasy should be funnier. Anybody else getting to work on that? And how much metahumor will break the story?

[Azraelsbane]

One of my MCs is a riot. Out of 10 beta readers not one complained, and she was the favorite character of three of them.

I get bored if I read 500+ pages of seriousness. If you stand back and look at the big picture, life is funny. It doesn't matter what world you live in, the basics of life are generally the same. Sex, relationships, personalities of others... All laughable in one way or another. ;)

Now, I'm not a fan of forced humor, but that's a totally different story. :)

[auntybug]

My fantasy books are geared at the 4th grade(ish) level. My 2 MC's are comic relief for sure. I can't imagine it without the humor. (of course I'm still in a slush pile so I'll keep you posted!)

[Esopha]

Okay, so I've got two words for you. Ready?

Terry.

Still with me? Yes?

Pratchett.

:D

[TheIT]

I love the Tough Guide to Fantasyland. Such a great way to point out all the cliches.

My fantasy work has humor running through it on many levels. My characters deal with some pretty nasty events, and sometimes they choose to laugh rather than cry.

[Haphazard]

Okay, so I've got two words for you. Ready?

Terry.

Still with me? Yes?

Pratchett.

:D

I've read so much of him...

But he's not what I'm talking about. Most of Pratchett's stuff is poking fun at typical fantasy conventions, and also satire of current and historical issues. There's a fair amount of meta humor there, too, and also because he's written so many books he can get away with humor within the world, too, because people are familiar with it.

Get it?

[Haphazard]

I love the Tough Guide to Fantasyland. Such a great way to point out all the cliches.

My fantasy work has humor running through it on many levels. My characters deal with some pretty nasty events, and sometimes they choose to laugh rather than cry.

Half of what I'm writing for NaNo is meta, but the meta is somewhat serious, at least at points -- the fact that the world is so sparsely developed causes actual problems, especially for the main character. Mostly, I was pondering the book and thinking of something I plan to include -- a main character counting down on his watch (set to the church bells, of course) to the daily tavern brawl. After a week there, he can count it down to the accuracy of a half a minute.

[Esopha]

I've read so much of him...

But he's not what I'm talking about. Most of Pratchett's stuff is poking fun at typical fantasy conventions, and also satire of current and historical issues. There's a fair amount of meta humor there, too, and also because he's written so many books he can get away with humor within the world, too, because people are familiar with it.

Get it?

Aah, so you mean fantasy books that are humorous without being satirical?

I got nothing.

I definitely agree that fantasy needs more funny. I started out writing in a Pratchett-esque vein because I wanted to have some fun with writing, but then I got bored and decided that there wasn't enough of what I wanted in my books. IE: witty banter, stupid politics and general insanity. I think my work is pretty funny. But then, I laugh at all my own jokes.

[Azraelsbane]

This isn't a good example, seeing as it's ripped directly from my novel and not something on the shelves, but here's the type of humor I deal with in my world. Note that Morghan is actually from the 21st century/our world. The cliche in the end is not out of character for her.
---

“Listen, there’s a reason I don’t deal with Arden, and Azrael insisted on being more than just transportation for this. I tried reasoning with him, but he won’t allow me to go alone.”

“Won’t allow you?” Michael laughed, but the sound held little humor. “Since when do you let anyone dictate what you can and can’t do?”

Morghan shrugged. “Some nonsense about marriage being a compromise.” She waved her hand in a flippant gesture. “He pulls shit like that out of his hat every now and again. What can I say? The man has a way with words…” A wide smile curved across her face. “Among other things.”

[Sage]

My most recent novels aren't funny plot-wise, but my MC occasionally jokes her way through horrible situations.

Sometimes it just makes the sitch worse.

[Doodlebug]

I know I've gone on about Neil Gaiman ad naseum in the other thread, but I think some of the stuff he writes is pretty funny.

[Haphazard]

Aah, so you mean fantasy books that are humorous without being satirical?

I got nothing.

I definitely agree that fantasy needs more funny. I started out writing in a Pratchett-esque vein because I wanted to have some fun with writing, but then I got bored and decided that there wasn't enough of what I wanted in my books. IE: witty banter, stupid politics and general insanity. I think my work is pretty funny. But then, I laugh at all my own jokes.

My last year's NaNo was pretty funny (at least people told me so), but it was mostly satirical of how horrible an Evil Overlord's Fortress of Doom would be.

Witty banter is great when it's actually witty. Most fantasy, I think, forces this too much, and it turns out not witty at all. If you can do good witty banter, I salute you.

I mean, the only things I've got for my novel are the precisely-timed bar brawls, the fact that my MC was horribly injured just before the story started and apparently the wounds on his will make him look "err... 'distinguished'" when they're healed up, and generally a character that talks a lot without saying anything at all. For all the meta I'm including, it doesn't really sound that funny.

[Deirdre]

My only short fiction sale thus far has been humorous fantasy. Then again, what else would you expect for a short story titled "A Sword Called Rhonda"?

[AceTachyon]

Eddings threw in a bit of humor in the Belgariad.

Rick Cook's Wiz Zumwalt books and the Myth Series also do the funny. I seem to recall Lawrence Watt-Evans also doing humorous fantasy.

Also Esther Friesner's "Chicks In Chainmail" anthologies.

[Deirdre]

Also Esther Friesner's "Chicks In Chainmail" anthologies.

Which is, btw, where Rhonda was first published.

My take on humor in fantasy and SF: the characters still have to take their world seriously; the humor needs to be in the absurdity of the premise (I have one of those making the rounds) or in the characters' interactions.

(I think that's what Haphazard was getting at.)

[Haphazard]

The characters still have to take their world seriously; the humor needs to be in the absurdity of the premise (I have one of those making the rounds) or in the characters' interactions.

(I think that's what Haphazard was getting at.)

Aha! Thanks. XP. I was having trouble finding the right words.

But the question is, how much absurdity can you get away with before the story can't be taken seriously anymore?

[Deirdre]

But the question is, how much absurdity can you get away with before the story can't be taken seriously anymore?

That tolerance level is different for each reader, alas.

[Azraelsbane]

That tolerance level is different for each reader, alas.

I agree with this. So much varies from one reader to another. You're never going to please them all, no matter how hard you try. :)

[Deirdre]

I agree with this. So much varies from one reader to another. You're never going to please them all, no matter how hard you try. :)

What I've learned from running humor through critique groups:

If the number of people who think it's too over-the-top is approximately equal to the number of people who think it's not funny enough, you're probably in the ballpark for most people, as long as there are some people who don't belong in either camp.

On the piece that I'm currently fluffing before submitting it to its next market, one person thought it needed to go Ionesco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ionesco), and another thought it needed all the humor taken out. Most of the other people thought it was right in the ballpark.

One person took great relish when they mentioned they loved the (unstated) pun that's central to the story's plot and half the room -- who hadn't gotten it -- lost it. I thought one of them was going to fall out of his chair. :)

[rugcat]

A certain type of snarky humor is a hallmark of a lot of urban fantasy.

[Azraelsbane]

What I've learned from running humor through critique groups:

If the number of people who think it's too over-the-top is approximately equal to the number of people who think it's not funny enough, you're probably in the ballpark for most people, as long as there are some people who don't belong in either camp.

On the piece that I'm currently fluffing before submitting it to its next market, one person thought it needed to go Ionesco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ionesco), and another thought it needed all the humor taken out. Most of the other people thought it was right in the ballpark.

One person took great relish when they mentioned they loved the (unstated) pun that's central to the story's plot and half the room -- who hadn't gotten it -- lost it. I thought one of them was going to fall out of his chair. :)

I alluded to William Blake in one part of my current work. I thought it was one of the most clever things I'd ever written, but about half of my betas didn't get it and thought it was a typo, so I think I'm going to have to take it out. Heh. ;)

[Esopha]

I think this part of my current WIP is funny.

"Ms. Elizabeth Voix-Caton, sir."

Of course, you have to read it to get why. :D (Hint: It's a pun. A very obvious pun. Think about it...)

[jchines]

I've tried to include both satirical humor and more character-driven humor in the goblin books. Several people beat me to mentioning Friesner's Chicks anthologies. There's also Andromeda Spaceways, which does humorous SF and fantasy. Some of that is also satirical, but not all.

And just like any particular subgenre of fantasy won't appeal to all fantasy fans, any particular style of humor isn't going to be funny to everyone. Heck, one of my beta readers even had the gall to suggest that not everyone would appreciate privy jokes...

[badducky]

And for all you punsters out there,

Piers Anthony's Xanth books are a hoot.
Watch out for the Pineapple Bombs!

[ajkjd01]

A certain type of snarky humor is a hallmark of a lot of urban fantasy.

Yes it is.....and seems to be growing in popularity.

My thought....humor's fine as long as it's appropriate for the world it's occurring in.

[Deirdre]

I alluded to William Blake in one part of my current work. I thought it was one of the most clever things I'd ever written, but about half of my betas didn't get it and thought it was a typo, so I think I'm going to have to take it out. Heh. ;)
I vote for leaving it in, if only for those of us Blake fans.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Humor in fantasy? Thraxas by Scott Miller about a medieval-like sorcerer investigator. The first novel won the World Fantasy Award.

As for my own, I have a wise-cracking unicorn in it. Sort of a 4-legged Don Rickles.

[J. R. Tomlin]

What I've learned from running humor through critique groups:

If the number of people who think it's too over-the-top is approximately equal to the number of people who think it's not funny enough, you're probably in the ballpark for most people, as long as there are some people who don't belong in either camp.

On the piece that I'm currently fluffing before submitting it to its next market, one person thought it needed to go Ionesco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ionesco), and another thought it needed all the humor taken out. Most of the other people thought it was right in the ballpark.

One person took great relish when they mentioned they loved the (unstated) pun that's central to the story's plot and half the room -- who hadn't gotten it -- lost it. I thought one of them was going to fall out of his chair. :)
Well, I hate to say it but if there is one thing I HATE it is novels that are based on a pun.

I enjoy novels where the character can see humor in the kind of things we all find funny. The Wiz books had a lot of humor and mostly it was well done, for instance.

But if the premise is ridiculous why would I read the book? That is the author saying "You're stupid to read this book" in which case my temptation is to slap the author and toss the book in the trash.

[Jeff Colburn]

I've heard editors for years say they want to see more humor in fantasy.

Have Fun,
Jeff

[Nakhlasmoke]

I don't write humour, but sometimes things come up that I find funny, in a darkly twisted kind of way. They are only funny in context though. Actually, they're not funny at all...what was I rambling on about...

Are you saying you want to see more humorous fantasy books like Pterry's. or that there should just be more humour in the average fantasy book?

[aadams73]

My fantasy novel--which is just about done--is really heavy on the humor. I can't write straight so I'm stuck with the funny. Hopefully someone out there will like it.

[Voyager]

Steven Brusts, To Reign In Hell is laced with gems like this. Two angels, Yaweh and Satan are having a discussion.

Satan: "I'll want to go back to the Hold soon. It's quite a walk."

Yaweh: "All right. But can you wait until tomorrow? It's been a long time since you've slept under my roof. We'll be having some pin-dancing tonight."

[Azraelsbane]

Steven Brusts, To Reign In Hell is laced with gems like this. Two angels, Yaweh and Satan are having a discussion.

Satan: "I'll want to go back to the Hold soon. It's quite a walk."

Yaweh: "All right. But can you wait until tomorrow? It's been a long time since you've slept under my roof. We'll be having some pin-dancing tonight."

I think it's way too early for me. I don't get it. I get that this could be taken as a conversation between God and the Devil (by the names), and I come up with the "pins and needles" thing, but I don't really find it funny. Anyone want to give me a hand? I hate when I don't get the joke.

[Momento Mori]

Azraelsbane:
I get that this could be taken as a conversation between God and the Devil (by the names), and I come up with the "pins and needles" thing, but I don't really find it funny. Anyone want to give me a hand? I hate when I don't get the joke.

I think it's a reference to the conundrum regarding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Regarding humour in fantasy, I don't think anyone has mentioned Robert Rankin - his humour isn't my cup of tea, but he's got a big readership.

MM

[nevada]

Myth Inc was funny and that was fantasy. I think it was called Myth Inc anyway. Read them a long time ago. Demon and guy can jump dimensions? at one point someone called him a claad hopper cause he was from claad. Weird the things that stick in your head. lol

[Nakhlasmoke]

Well then Miles, stick to early Pratchett (Colour of Magic) and you'll be fine.

Or not.

It's hard to tell.

Comedy is that much funnier when it's played up against some seriousness. Joke after joke after joke with no depth becomes a tad flat after a while.

[Saanen]

I can't write anything without at least some humor stuck in. And I definitely don't want to read books that are humorless. Terry Pratchett and Diana Wynne Jones are two of my favorite authors, and it's not a coincidence that both are very, very funny.

I used to read those Myth Inc. books by Robert Aspirin, back when I was in high school. I got tired of the snide tone, though. Maybe I should pick one up for old times' sake.

I think the best fantasy books incorporate humor, with the possible exception of LOTR (and even then, the hobbits provide some quiet comic relief). Part of the charm of the Harry Potter books, especially the early ones, is that they're actually very funny in places.

[Deirdre]

I loved the Myth books when they first came out, even with the snide tone.

[J. R. Tomlin]

I read a couple of the Pratchett books, but I find his tone unpleasant. I want the humor to be within the world and not saying that I'm stupid to be reading the book because fantasy is stupid, which seemed to be the take that he has on it. But then because I didn't care for the tone, I haven't read most of his books. Maybe some are better. I just couldn't plow through them to find out.

I found the humor in the Wiz books by Cook to be perfect. He could see the humor in the situation without spoiling the fantasy.

Edit: But then taste in humor is extremely varied which may be why a lot of publishers shy away from it too.

[TheKnightWhoSaidNi]

Any humor in my books is very light. I have actually looked around, trying to see if there was an area where I could insert some 'yuk-yuk' humor, or a big comic relief character, but it didn't strike out at me as being appropriate for the story, so I didn't. There are a few amusing lines, I think, but for the most part anything which isn't deadly serious is more lighthearted rather than funny.
For example, I introduce a cute critter in the third book. It's not particularly funny, but it lightens the mood a bit, and it does serve a small purpose in a later conflict.

[Zelenka]

All my fantasy writing tends to have some humour in it. Admittedly in my earlier books this was the most atrocious humour ever, silly stuff that only I found funny I expect. I like to think I've improved. Now I just tend to have characters with a sense of humour, a lot of banter, that sort of thing.

My current book is quite dark for the most part, so I like to have some humour in it just to stop it from becoming extremely depressing, both for me as a writer and for anyone reading it. Occasionally my characters in other books have told jokes, but they've been reworked versions of ordinary jokes, just with fantasy elements substituted for normal ones so that the punchlines still work.

Jess