Holy Jumping-Heads, Batman.

wordmonkey · Sep 30, 2007

If this has been discussed (and it likely has) just point me to the right thread.

However, what are the folks thinking on jumping between first and third person in a book.

A couple of examples I can think of are a Robert B. Parker "Spencer" book where it's all in Spencer's (first person) perspective - then the odd chapter jumps to the POV of the serial killer (third person).

Then the recent "Book of Fate" by Brad Meltzer has a first person narrative, then it jumps away to other people and scenes that are all third person.

Isn't this cheating? Trying to have your cake and eat it? Does anyone else find it jarring?

scarletpeaches · Sep 30, 2007

I find it jarring too, and 'cheating' is the word I was looking for. I can't quite figure out why, though.

Maybe it's because there are rules - or perhaps I should say guidelines - for both methods and trying to mix the two is like trying to combine the best of both worlds and yes, as you said - like having your cake and eating it. Not going along with the restrictions each POV would dictate and slip-sliding out of it by - as if by magic! - cherry-picking the best bits of another POV.

James Patterson does this a lot.

sneakers145 · Sep 30, 2007

IMO there is nothing wrong with switching POVs between chapters. Who says a book has to have only one POV? Most thrillers have at least two (the protag and the antagonist); most I read have between 2-4, occasionally more.

I've only read one where there was a first person and several third persons, and it was done well. That was Billy Straight by Kellerman.

As long as it's not being done within a scene, or the POV isn't switching every other line, I don't see the problem.

GerriB · Sep 30, 2007

And the problem is?

Most of the books I read have multiple POVs. In fact, it's rare that what I read has a single POV. Both styles have advantages and disadvantages, but it's neither cheating nor cheap. As long as the POV change is clear, write on.

Good luck!

Sage · Sep 30, 2007

I haven't read many books with the jump from first to third, & I always thought it was kind of weird, though not any more jarring than jumping from third to another third, so it was okay. However, my current WIP has it. I love my MC's 1st person POV, and wouldn't trade it for anything, but there are times when I absolutely must go into another POV because she was completely out of the picture, & if the audience doesn't know what's going on, there's much less suspense. It was a really hard decision to let that one character's POV intrude every so often, but I decided it was best for the novel.

Really, why would it be cheating any more than using multiple 3rd person POVs? And if it's done right (just like w/ multiple 3rd person), it shouldn't be jarring. In fact, if there are only two POVs used at all, it should be more clear right off the bat that you have switched.

The Lady · Sep 30, 2007

I read a book recently called "The Interpretation Of Murder" by Jed Rubenfeld. It gets off to a cracking start in first and then switches, well into the book, to third.
Yes, it was jarring and very.
Later he does a scene in third where his first person character is actually present. Took me ages to figure out what was going on and why. There didn't appear to be an actual why? Just because, seems like.
Then he commits the ultimate crime.
First person character is trapped in an underwater situation where he might have to chop of his own arm to live.
Seeing as he has been ruminating philosophically about death and action and inaction all through the book, it might be interesting to be in his head at this stage.
Are we?
Noooooo.
It's done in third and all we get are his flippant jokes. What started out as a very strong book turned into a very weak one. I'm amazed his editors let it through. The man can write. He just didn't, not for an entire book.
So, I will not be using this method. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work.

Claudia Gray · Sep 30, 2007

I've seen the approach used well. I admit that sometimes it's jarring, and The Book of Fate was one example that didn't work for me. But other times it's okay, and occasionally -- as in Olga Grushin's brilliant The Dream Life of Sukhanov -- the device can be turned to extremely good effect.

In none of the above cases is it "head-jumping," though.

PeeDee · Sep 30, 2007

If it works, use it. If it doesn't work, kill it.

Easy!

OctoberRain · Sep 30, 2007

I always thought that "head-jumping" referred to switching to a different POV within one scene. Is that not correct?

I've read a lot of books with multiple third-person POV's, and even multiple first-person POV's, but these occurred within separate and distinct chapters. For the most part, it's never bothered me so long as I know who's head I'm in. But is this still considered head-jumping?

I'm writing my first novel, with 80% of it from the MC's POV (written in third person), and the rest of the chapters written in third person from other characters' POVs. The reason for the switches is because I feel these minor characters can move the story forward, or add to the story, in ways that the MC simply can't. Is this not okay?

wordmonkey · Sep 30, 2007

Well, when I said head-jumping, I didn't mean in the POV sense.

The heading-jumping was referring to a more literal sense. I'm actually in someone's head, seeing the world through their eyes. Then suddenly I'm dumped out and in a more omnipotent floating perspective.

And my feel that it's a cheat is in the sense that if I write in first person, I assume the restrictions. That the reader can only know what the talking character knows. And the trade is that I get to write and really nail a character, really sink into one person and play it for all it's worth.

And I find it jarring as a reader, 'cos I'm settled into that head, I know that voice, I know the thinking and I know the whole vibe, and then suddenly I'm dumped out, naked, wet and crying, into the world at large.

But that's just me.

Sage · Sep 30, 2007

wordmonkey said:
The heading-jumping was referring to a more literal sense. I'm actually in someone's head, seeing the world through their eyes. Then suddenly I'm dumped out and in a more omnipotent floating perspective.

Oh, first & 3rd-omni? Yeah, that would be a lot more jarring.

PeeDee · Sep 30, 2007

It could be made to work. It could be made intentionally jarring. It could be cool.

BUT...it could also just be disastrous, so I might just leave it alone, unless I had a specific idea for using it.

JeanneTGC · Sep 30, 2007

PeeDee said:
If it works, use it. If it doesn't work, kill it.

Easy!

These, truly, are words to live by. This advice solves most problems I've ever had while writing (and in other areas of life, too).

PeeDee · Sep 30, 2007

Maybe less literally on the killing bit, at the end. Or at least, don't tell me.

kristie911 · Sep 30, 2007

I know you guys hate James Patterson but he does switch between 1st and 3rd in his Alex Cross books. I don't find it jarring at all...once I understood what was going on. I think he does it pretty well actually.

Please don't neg rep me for bringing JP into this discussion.

PeeDee · Sep 30, 2007

*I* don't hate James Patterson. I'm not a much of a fan of his books, but I enjoyed what I read, and I like James Patterson the man enormously. I would love to go out to dinner with him and just talk.

JeanneTGC · Sep 30, 2007

PeeDee said:
Maybe less literally on the killing bit, at the end. Or at least, don't tell me.

Oh, okay. *kicks the dirt* Pete takes all the fun out of the great advice...

heyjude · Oct 1, 2007

Any Harlan Coben fans? He does this well. I actually quite enjoy the 1st to 3rd.

Bruce Baker · Oct 1, 2007

First person/third person jumpimng...

Maeve Binchy did it in "Whitethorn Woods", which I'm reading now. She can do no wrong in my eyes, yet it is still jarring. By the way, if anyone wants to take the RIDE OF THEIR LIFE in a book, read "Scarlet Feather" by her...just sayin' :Sun:

Devil Ledbetter · Oct 1, 2007

Bruce Baker said:
Maeve Binchy did it in "Whitewoods", which I'm reading now. She can do no wrong in my eyes, yet it is still jarring. By the way, if anyone wants to take the RIDE OF THEIR LIFE in a book, read "Scarlet Feather" by her...just sayin'

Heh, my mom loved that Binchy book, and passed it over to me. I can't get through it. It's all tell, tell, tell.

I'm now reading Hi-Fidelity and Into The Wild simultaneously. That's less jarring than Whitethorn Woods.

JimmyB27 · Oct 1, 2007

Iain Banks, a guy who can do no wrong in my eyes, did it in Feersum Endjinn and there's just no way I could not like that book - the first person POV character, Bascule, is just so endearing. And this is a book with another 'oddity'. The whole of Bascule's POV is written in a phonetic sort of manner - hence the title.

Bruce Baker · Oct 1, 2007

Thank you for correcting me..."Whitethorn Woods". I won't tell you how "Into the Wild" ends...it's not pretty.

GeorgieB · Oct 1, 2007

heyjude said:
Any Harlan Coben fans? He does this well. I actually quite enjoy the 1st to 3rd.

I also enjoyed the one book that Robert Parker switched from 1st to 3rd. Not jarring at all.

jmho.

GeorgieB · Oct 1, 2007

heyjude said:
Any Harlan Coben fans? He does this well. I actually quite enjoy the 1st to 3rd.

I also enjoyed the one book where Robert Parker switched from 1st to 3rd. Not jarring at all.

jmho.

ajkjd01 · Oct 1, 2007

I wrote my current WIP all in first person, but all of a sudden there was a scene between two secondary characters that was so cute and funny and just plain fun that I hated the idea of cutting it. After working long and hard to find a way to keep it (which just didn't work), I ended up inserting third person chapters from the perspective of different secondary characters. I've kept a chart of how it flows, so that the third person chapters follow a logical pattern (2-3 chapters of first person, then 1 chapter of third person from secondary character A, 2-3 chapters of first person, then 1 chapter os secondary character B, etc., keeping a rotation of the secondary character chapters.).

I've found that I like what it's doing....making the story richer and more intense in some parts, and allowing character building that I hadn't had a chance to handle in a first person perspective story. It's taking longer to finish than I'd planned.

How do you guys feel about something like that? There's no head-hopping within chapters, each chapter is consistent with one character's perspective.

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