Is giving exposition/backstory via a conversation acceptable?

Ivonia · Feb 12, 2005

As I decided to add more backstory to my story, I found myself in a little situation. The backstory isn't 100% neccessary, but I threw it in in case anyone wanted to find out more about how the bad guy came into power (from the good guys' point of view). I already give a little hint of how the bad guy will come to power, but I wanted to add this in to make it more complete, flesh it out completely, so if readers were to make a history chart, it would make total sense (yeah, it's a big SF/fantasy epic I'm writing).

For example, lets say that this is WW2, and the young hero is joining the war against the Nazi's. His uncle gives him some last minute advice and tells the young lad more about how Hitler came into power, and how tensions increased and how WW2 eventually broke out. (This is just an example, although my story is pretty close to this example). The hero won't really hear any of this stuff from the army when he joins, all they'll tell him is that the Nazi's are evil and must be stopped. But by having the story told to him by his uncle, he can see why the Nazi's came to power, and why exactly they're evil.

Would having the uncle tell the hero more about the bad guys and how they came to power be okay in a conversation? The hero is having trouble sleeping before he ships off and has a talk with his uncle about events prior to the war, and why it most likely started. His uncle also gives him advice on how to be careful out there, and not to judge people so quickly, as his uncle believes that not every bad guy out there is truly as evil as they seem to be.

I am trying to make the conversation interesting, I already had them talk once, and the uncle gives the hero backstory to his father and theories as to why he disappeared (no one knows for sure in the story), and why his uncle had to raise him and his sister (and no, this isn't a ripoff of Star Wars, I've come up with my own stuff). It seemed to work well, and I want to give readers the impression that the hero's uncle is wise and looking out for him regardless of what he decides to do with his life.

So, in your opinion, is having backstory explained via a conversation okay, as long as it's not just mindless banter?

The only other way I could really show this stuff is if the hero reads a history book, but I felt it was boring, and that if the backstory comes from the uncle, the hero will take it to heart more, since he trusts his uncle a lot.

Plus by having his uncle tell him these things before he leaves for training, when the hero does encounter these situations, he will be wiser (late in the story I have the hero let a bad guy go even though he could simply kill the bad guy, but I felt I should explain this more, which is why I had his uncle tell him about the not every bad guy he meets is truly evil, and his heart will let him know when that happens. This particular bad guy will also play a vital role later on in saving the hero's life in the second book outline I have planned so far, so it's not like I'm letting the hero let the bad guy go just to show that the hero is a "good guy". Almost everything that occurs in my story will have a cause and effect result, and I'm not just making certain things happen just because "OMG It'll Be TeH WiNz" if I do that).

Sorry for droning, hope that I was able to ask my question somewhere in this topic hehe.

SRHowen · Feb 12, 2005

Just don't

start it with "As you know . . . " or tell it if the reader already knows that the character listening knows the information--then it's an obvious info dump.

Shawn (does this board have a spell check?)

reph · Feb 12, 2005

Apparently not, Shawn,

no spell check. You're on your own.

Hey, wouldn't it be useful if people who see colors around letters saw a distinctive color around misspelled words?

James D. Macdonald · Feb 12, 2005

As you know, Bob...

"For as you know, Bob, we are both androids and so must change our batteries each four hours."

This is a dreaded (and dreadful) way of putting in backstory or information that the characters all know perfectly well but the reader needs to know. (Or the author figures the reader needs to know. Usually the reader will do just fine not knowing it.)

If the story started way back when, then start telling your story way back when. Otherwise, only put in conversation the things that those two people would naturally converse about.

(This is why writers often bring in Strangers as characters -- so that people can explain stuff to the New Guy.....

"Why's Sylvia ripping up the napkins?"

"Dunno, exactly. She's been that way ever since her skiing accident back in '97.....")

SRHowen · Feb 12, 2005

ditto, James--looking at my post it almost looks like I was saying to do it that way. I wasn't.

This bites, my ie explorer spell check doesn't work here either.

:Headbang:

Shawn, who will be making many many spelling goofs--or making less posts since I will have to cut and paste or look like an idiot.

Hmm, I like the idea of putting the old post counts on the sig line---

Mistook · Feb 12, 2005

I would think you really have to make that conversation between the uncle and the young soldier very believable or it will seem like an info dump. If I were doing it, I'd first try to make it clear that the kid has gleened some of the broader strokes from reading the papers or hearing people talk.

Something like, "I don't know if I understand why Hitler is called a dictator. I seem to remember hearing that he was elected into office?"

"Yes, he was, but after he was in, he manipulated the system to remove all the checks to his power."

"Couldn't the German people see he was evil?"

"You have to understand, after WWI, Germany was in terrible shape..."

---

Okay, maybe that's not the most believable conversation either, but maybe you get my point.

PixelFish · Feb 12, 2005

I once killed a novel with an entire chapter that was an info dump in a conversation. I got through that chapter and sort of withered away upon re-reads. Not pretty. Because of this, I try to work out the info-dump information well in advance now and sprinkle it in tiny pieces all of the landscape of my story.

mistri · Feb 12, 2005

I tend to info-dump everywhere during my first drafts - dialogues, internal monologues, whereever. I try and cut it well back in revision, so that it seems as natural as possible. Otherwise it goes. Most of the time the story will still make sense to the reader anyway.

James D. Macdonald · Feb 12, 2005

Infodumps

MISTOOK said:
Okay, maybe that's not the most believable conversation either, but maybe you get my point.

This is all great stuff for the author to know, but I don't see a single reason to put it into the book, in conversation or any other way.

If it doesn't advance the plot, support the theme, or reveal character, why put it on the page?

Canada James · Feb 12, 2005

Spell Check

reph said:
no spell check. You're on your own.

Hey, wouldn't it be useful if people who see colors around letters saw a distinctive color around misspelled words?

Here's an add on that'll work on any form.

http://www.iespell.com/

Canada James

preyer · Feb 12, 2005

this is one of the eternal questions of writing, eh? --how to i do an info dump without *seeming* like i'm info dumping?--

obviously, there's some information that needs conveyed to put the characters in a setting. like jd, i tend to be very minimalistic. conversations are tricky: it has to sound very realistic for me to believe, and even then, well, knowing the gimmick, it doesn't tend to work well for me. were i just a reader for entertainment, i can't honestly say how it would set with me. it almost smacks of describing appearance by looking into a mirror if not done to perfection.

i just got done with a scene where i describe a secret history to my protagonish through conversation, but, fortunately, that's not only a history lesson for the reader, but one for the hero, too, so in that case i think i got away with it for the most part.

if it's the best way to convey the information, go for it, eh?

maestrowork · Feb 12, 2005

Iespell is great. There's also Hot Lingo if you don't use IE.

Back to the topic... I think backstories through conversation is fine, if you can put them in a dramatic or characterizational context. Don't stop the story by having the characters engaging in "let me tell you a story" mode. Basically, you need to keep things going and keep things interesting, and keep things real. The best conversation not only convey the backstories/info, but should also develop characters and their relationship together.

I just wrote a scene where two brothers were talking while they were on their way to retrieve a body. The conversation includes back stories but they are done in real conversation, not "this is what happened. Then this happened." The purpose of the conversation, hopefully, serves these purposes:

- make the transitional scene more engaging
- show the relationship between the two characters, and their personalities
- reveal back stories and more about the character's background or philosophies, etc.
- foreshadow future conflicts

When in doubt, just write the scene out. Then go back and read it out loud. See if that works. If "it works," anything is possible.

Ivonia · Feb 12, 2005

Thanks for the replies!

Yeah, I'm trying to be careful that it doesn't sound too much like an info dump. The reason I put this conversation in is because the hero's uncle has been watching the news and other events that have occurred during his lifetime. The hero's uncle even mentions that why didn't the hero study his history books to learn all this, to which the hero replies that the history books he had at the time didn't have this info (could I get away with this explanation? You know how history books don't always have all the info, esp. if it's recent, like within 10-20 years or so).

The beginning of my story in fact shows the bad guy's leader before he becomes their leader. I show how he gets his power from (an ancient evil demon), and then after that, you don't really "see" him anymore. However, by what the demon promises him, readers should be able to tell that it's not going to be good.

Fast forward 50 years, and that guy is now the leader of his race, and attacks the good guys.

The hero's uncle tells him about how the bad guys were once good, but their leader and his immediate successors were all killed some 35 years earlier (apparently by the good guys, although I sprinkle it with enough evidence so that readers can doubt that), and the bad guy initially wins an election, but is determined to have rigged it in such a way that he would've won.

He gets ousted, and vows to return, which he does, with the power given to him in the beginning of the book (supernatural help of the demon), and after a brutal twenty year civil war, he wins (the good guys don't send military aid, but they send supplies to try and help the "not so bad" guys, but they eventually lose, since the demon gives the bad guy such power they couldn't possibly hope to win against it), and begins to expanding his "empire".

Unfortunately for the hero, the expansion includes invading territory the good guys have control over, and the bad guys use various excuses as a reason to invade (similiar to "excuses" Hitler used to invade other countries for example).

The hero's uncle gives him another warning, that he should not be so quick to judge all the bad guys as evil, since he knew some of them before the civil war, and they seemed nice and well-intentioned. Kind of like how not all Germans were neccessarily evil Nazi machines/drones, some of them probably saw how bad Hitler was, but were really unable to oppose him, and I want to add something like this to my story, so that readers don't just see a neccessarily "black and white" story. Just like not all good guys are always "good" either (I'm adding a sub-plot for this, to give the hero more challenges he needs to overcome).

Of course, the hero doesn't know any of this. All he knows is that the bad guys attacked them, and killed his sister in their first attack, which is what ultimately brought him into the war. The military will also probably not tell him this stuff either, all they will tell him is all bad guys are evil and must be vanquished immediately, regardless of what happens. The military is concerned about winning the war, not about saving "good" enemies, particularly when the enemy is much stronger than they are. But the hero will learn later that things are not always what they seem.

Sorry, I guess you can see why this is sort of complex for me, but I'm hoping to make it a good story, one that people will talk about and remember for a long time.

Writing Again · Feb 12, 2005

As you know...

I picked up something early on as a kid that effected this type of exposition. Two men, both in the same unit, both in the same battle, got to arguing over "What happened -- Because I know -- I was there -- I saw it all."

Having one person lecture another on facts they both know is boring -- Having two characters disagree about something that should be common to both of them can be interesting if it does not go on too long.

These two could not even agree on whether the fight started at dawn or after breakfast.

Then a younger guy jumped in with what his uncle had told him about the battle, and both of them jumped on that saying how his uncle could not have done the things he'd said he'd done.

So I'd say yes, it can be done, but do it as exposition of character, not as exposition of narrative or backstory.

Anatole Ghio · Feb 12, 2005

maestrowork said:
Back to the topic... I think backstories through conversation is fine, if you can put them in a dramatic or characterizational context. Don't stop the story by having the characters engaging in "let me tell you a story" mode. Basically, you need to keep things going and keep things interesting, and keep things real. The best conversation not only convey the backstories/info, but should also develop characters and their relationship together.

Yes, I agree with this. If the Uncle has to tell the nephew certain facts in order for the story to make sense, do it in the context of a conflict occuring bewteen the uncle and the nephew. These questions should be paramount in you mind as you order the scene: what does this reveal about the uncle's perspective of the world, what does it reveal about the relationship with his nephew, what is the status between the two characters and what changes between them at the end of the scene. Any information revealed by the uncle should be in this context and if doesn't fit, it should be taken out.

Another way to do an info dump is to use the law of contrast. Use one characters info dump and intercut it with a tension inducing scene; such as a mathmatics professor delivering a lecture on vital math points as the main character secretly searches the auditorium for a hidden bomb. By intercutting from the main plot at dramatic high points and going to the info dump scene and then back again, you build tension by drawing it out and can do an info dump under the guise of sceneic description.

Hey, if there is no spell check for this board, where can I get a spell check program for my Mozilla Firefox?

- Anatole

P.S. We have my lovely Arial! yayyy!!!

maestrowork · Feb 13, 2005

I think Hot Lingo works with any browser... not sure though.

Writing Again · Feb 13, 2005

Remember this rule: Don't tell the backstory until the reader wants to know it.

So first get the reader curious about what really did go on back then and you can tell it in any interesting manner (flashback, telling, etc) and the reader will stay with you.

Birol · Feb 13, 2005

Star Wars & Backstory

Ivonia,

You mentioned Star Wars in your original post. Think of that story for a moment.

The first three movies (Chapter 4 through 6) were undeniable hits. There are still fans who enjoy watching them. The next three (Chapter 1 through 3) have not been so well received. Why? Because they are nothing but the backstory for the original trilogy. And while the fact that Darth Vader was really Luke's father was a dramatic, tension-building twist, it was explained well enough to satisfy the audience in the brief conversation between Obi-Wan and Luke in Return of the Jedi.

The audience did not have to have three new movies made to explain the full details of how Anakin Skywalker turned into Darth Vader because they/we had already accepted it as fact and moved on. While it was necessary for George Lucas to understand how the transformation happened so he could properly reveal it, his audience didn't particularly need that information.

Mistook · Feb 13, 2005

I have to say, with Star Wars, the newest trilogy is simply an example of an author losing all his inspiration. Everything in the two new movies we've seen leans on the classic trilogy like krutches. It's just sad. My lifetime of imagination into what the "Clone Wars" were all about, really blows away the tired chiche's on the screen.

Not to mention gigantic plot loop holes. Darth VAder builtC3P0? Give me a f****ing break! Threepio was obviously a mass produced model, according to the original movies - he wasn't some kit-job, but yet Lucas wants me to swallow that Anakin built him from spare parts. I'm sorry! The shiny, gold body plates didn't come from Radio Shack, and what about the fact that threepio is fluent in thousands of galactic languages? How did Anakin pull that off?

Why is it that in the original Star Wars movie, when stranded on Tatooine, C3P0 doesn't say, "My, but I find this desert world quite familiar! I believe this was where I was born?"

Why, when Vader sees Threepio with Han Solo in Cloud City, doesn't the dark lord of the sith say, "Hey! I built you!"

It's just silly!

Now, don't get me started on Jarjar Binks! I may do things I'll regret.

preyer · Feb 13, 2005

george lucas raped my childhood! sorry, just had to be the billionth person to say that.

try reading the classic trilogy's novelizations without gagging. if there's a writing 'rule' you're not supposed to break, it's in there.

story and filmmaking-wise, you can see where GL was headed in ROTJ. years of being a hermit billionaire warped all sensibilities he had as a story-teller. it's nothing to do with the fact we know how the characters wind-up, it's got everything to do with bad writing and style over substance. for awhile, you could slap a label saying 'mynock spit' on a jar of vaseline and sell ten million units. then the movies came out. it's also interesting to note how when you're surrounded by yes-men how everything you crap smells like roses. then lies begin to become retro-truths and you're the only one who can see the halo around your head. hopefully, being trounced by 'spider-man' was a wake up call.

anyway, it's probably safe to say that information streams is an art form, one vital to well-rounded writers. surely there are a thousand ways of doing it. seems to me the key here is knowing various ways of doing it and how best to implement a given choice in the context of the scene. inobtrusive, interesting, succinct as possible, and meaningful i assume are the ways to go on that, eh? if you write a novel set in the distant future, there's a real good chance that at some point you'll just have to flat-out give some backstory or description that's not a subtle gimmick. cd's aren't going to be around forever, so you're going to have to break down and give up a few words to describe that it's evolved into a cigarette-sized tube... but since you can't smoke in the future (which is bullsiht), maybe it's a pen-sized tube. i guess what i'm driving at here is the length and importance of the information is a great determining factor on what kind of info-dump to choose, too.

is the info-dump nature of a lot of prologues why so many people seem to have such an aversion towards them?

SRHowen · Feb 13, 2005

Here's an add on that'll work on any form.

You must have missed my post--iespell does not work in this forum. I have it. It tells you the spell check is complete with no words marked wrong. I'll live, I do in other forums with no spell check.

Shawn

HConn · Feb 13, 2005

Ivonia, all that matters is whether it works or not.

What you're describing doesn't sound like it will work.

Try telling the story without the information. If the story works, fine. Otherwise, try to make it dramatically interesting.

Did you ever watch Terminator? You don't get the explanation about Skynet and the cyborgs until well after you're curious what's going on. Two naked guys appear from nowhere. Both hunt for the same woman. Both arm themselves. Both fight like crazy, but one seems unkillable.

See what I mean? By the time we came to the explanation, the audience had a powerful hunger for it. What's more, the explanation itself was cool, making it fun to listen to.

You need to give exposition at a time the audience wants it.

katdad · Feb 13, 2005

Portion out the backhistory

Using a conversation to fill in the backstory is a very good way to inform the reader of past events.

Just don't do it all at the same time, or you'll put your audience to sleep before your protagonist nods off.

You might also have a "training video" shown to the trainees, or barracks chat, or maybe they're watching the TV news. These are several ways to fill in details. And don't do this all at once -- portion it out and blend it with the story line.

On a side note, You added an apostrophe to "Nazi's" at least twice. There seems to be some strange "apostrophe demon" that possesses people and makes them add an apostrophe to any nouns that end in "s".

If this is an accidental thing, please focus on your English grammar sufficiently until you can exorcize that apostrophe demon.

Nazis = plural, as in "The Nazis were not the nicest people I've met."
Nazi's = possessive, as in "The Nazi's uniform had lots of metals."

katdad · Feb 13, 2005

Spell checker

reph said:
no spell check. You're on your own.

The best spell checker is between your ears anyway.

You can tell people who have watched too much TV and have not read enough by their habitual misuse of homonyms. Since these words sound the same, the absorbing young mind cannot discern between "their", "they're", or "there", for example. And let's not forget the "its" vs. "it's" trap.

Maryn · Feb 13, 2005

It's vs. Its: A Battle Between Giants

katdad, allow me to introduce you to one of my dearest online friends, Bob the Angry Flower: http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif

Unfortunately, this poster isn't hung prominently in every classroom and place of business where English is written. I have asked for the T-shirt repeatedly, but my family insists I'm a grammar freak and a punctuation Nazi.

I suspect they're right.

Maryn

Is giving exposition/backstory via a conversation acceptable?

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