Word count

paulm · Sep 28, 2007

I know this is probably not the right way to do things but I think aiming for 400 pages paperback as a length for my (first) novel is a good target.

How many words do you think I'm aiming for (I'm talking about a simple word count as given by a word processor)?

I've seen that estimates are made on the basis of 250 words per page but most novels seem to have many more than this, even in paperback.

Del · Sep 28, 2007

You're right. That isn't the right way to go about it.

250 words per page is the standard. And if you used a 12 point font with double spaced lines that is about what comes out on a page in a word processor.

Just write the book. Don't worry about the words. Keep your mind on the story. You are the only one that can write it. Anyone can cut or add words as needed (though lengthening a book sounds weird to me).

Azraelsbane · Sep 28, 2007

I think somewhere around 100k is 400 pages, but it really depends on a lot of things.

Also, I'm with Del on just writing it. My 1st draft was 102k and after editing it's 88k. After beta reads, I have three new scenes to add, so it will likely be bumped back around 100k. You never know what edits/rewrites are going to do to your word count, so it's best to just write it out first.

MidnightMuse · Sep 28, 2007

You're right, it's not the way to go about this. File this under: The Last Thing I Should Worry About.

Write your story. Edit the crap out of it. Check your word count and compare that to your genre's average. Submit query.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Del · Sep 28, 2007

And 80 k to 120k is expected for a first novel. Any more and you might have a hard time selling it. Pages are money. Say it with less.

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 28, 2007

Write it first, as the others have said, then worry about things like word count when you're submitting it.

My current WIP ended up at 68,000 words and has swelled to over 85,000 in editing as I fleshed things out.

Del · Sep 28, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
My current WIP ended up at 68,000 words and has swelled to over 85,000 in editing as I fleshed things out.

You swell? I deflate. Usually about half.

Prawn · Sep 28, 2007

100K is about 400 pages. Much longer than that and it is harder to market it, especially for a first time novelist.

Sunkissed27f · Sep 28, 2007

Take in to consideration: the font, font type, font size, blah blah blah.

So either way there is not a direct science to it unless you want to do an experiment into each different font and its characteristics.

Also, the margins can create less wordage per page, too. And paragraphs, heading and footing for Chapters and page numbers. Sorry, my technical brain at work here.

Sunkissed27f · Sep 28, 2007

I guess you could narrow it down if you wanted, but each authors writing style if different....get my meaning yet?

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 28, 2007

Delarege said:
You swell? I deflate. Usually about half.

Maybe you need viagra.

Um, yes, I start out short. I tend to write rushed and leave a lot of details out as I write and these I go back and fill in later. I also tend to realize as I'm revising that I didn't explain why someone had this reaction or why that was crutial and I end up adding scenes to explain those.

Azraelsbane · Sep 28, 2007

Delarege said:
You swell? I deflate.

I deflate then swell... Do you think I should go to a doctor?

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 28, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
I deflate then swell... Do you think I should go to a doctor?

Is that called yo-yo editing?

Azraelsbane · Sep 28, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
Is that called yo-yo editing?

Hehe. I usually cut out all my extraneous words (and I overwrite a lot the first time around), but then I add some new scenes, so the word count goes up. I don't end up exactly where I was to begin with, thank God.

preyer · Sep 28, 2007

here's a page i stumbled on

http://members.aol.com/ESinclair1/page6.html

in it it's got a rough estimate on home many pages 'x' number of words equals.

if you care to really get into it, ten characters should equal one inch of space. count how many spaces are on a horizontal line and divide by six. six is the average amount of characters for a single word as far as editors are concerned. that number is how many average 'words' per line you have. i want to say the normal average is 11-14, give or take.

some publishers specify where they want the margins. generally, the standard is at least one inch margins all the way around. unless noted, the size is 10 or 12 point, usually 12 (this is the one i'd stick with). i'd also use the courier font (this is the font required usually, if they bother mentioning it), as it's nonproportional, meaning each character occupies the same amount of space with no kerning (kerning is adjusting the space between characters. pick up a book and you'll notice some characters 'overlap' another character's space to some extent. you'll see how obvious it is with lower-case 'j's, as in 'adjourn.' you can't see it here because it's more of a typography thing.)

hope that actually helped answer your question.

The Grift · Sep 28, 2007

"How many pages should my novel be?"

"As many as it takes to tell the story."

If a publisher likes your book but wants it to be X amount longer or shorter for whatever reason, it will get that way before going to print.

preyer · Sep 28, 2007

true. but, editors require there to be a word count. if all you did was hit 'word count' on your WP, that could be waaay off what the editor is actually asking for. will it break the deal? probably not. will it impress the editor that you can't do simple math? probably not. not that he would think this necessarily, but i personally prefer to do things that don't make me look lazy and/or like a moron. call me crazy.

and i should mention that some editors might not care about a more accurate general word count and the 'word count' button will do just fine. i'd guess these fine folk aren't your more traditional publishers.

also note that when you're doing a word count like i laid out, even if you only have one word on a horizontal line, you get 'charged' a whole line's worth of words. for an editor, 'word count' is about how much *space* is used, not how many words are there... or aren't there. an entire page with a single word is counted as 250 words (or whatever your average is ~ 250 seems to be a fairly standard estimate).

i'll add that i think there's a little psychology behind doing things this way. not only is it what editors are most likely used to, but the effect is it reads 'fast,' which, so i've heard, is a good thing in this situation.

aadams73 · Sep 28, 2007

Here's a good guide to word count. Funnily enough, it falls within 300 words of Word's count in my current ms.

The rule of thumb is 250 x number of pages for TNR and 200 x number of pages for Courier.

Azraelsbane · Sep 28, 2007

aadams73 said:
Here's a good guide to word count. Funnily enough, it falls within 300 words of Word's count in my current ms.

The rule of thumb is 250 x number of pages for TNR and 200 x number of pages for Courier.

Hmm, I didn't realize the 250 thing didn't apply to Courier. My actual MS Word count is 88k, using the 250 method it's 100k, but if I use the 200 method it brings me down to 80k. That's a huge difference (I'm using courier).

Devil Ledbetter · Sep 28, 2007

aadams73 said:
Here's a good guide to word count. Funnily enough, it falls within 300 words of Word's count in my current ms.

The rule of thumb is 250 x number of pages for TNR and 200 x number of pages for Courier.

Aadams, I could kiss you for saying this! I composed my MS in Courier 10, knowing I was supposed to switch it to 12 before submission. I completed my MS today, switched it to twelve, and by the page count x 250 method, ended up with 115,750 words. My MSWord word count is only 89,700. That's a 26,050 discrepancy. I thought I was losing my mind.

I even checked the words-per-page with the 12-point font and they were in the neighborhood of 200 in every case.

By your method, my word count is 92,600. I am much relieved.

Azraelsbane · Sep 28, 2007

In my case this is rather upsetting, as 80k is far too short for fantasy, in my opinion.

I've checked my pages and they average around 230 words per page. I think it depends on the style of writing, though heavy dialogue actually shoves book form page number up instead of down, so the number of pages/characters the agent/publisher would be looking for would actually be higher than the real word count. I'm sure I'm not making any sense here, lol.

blacbird · Sep 28, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
In my case this is rather upsetting, as 80k is far too short for fantasy, in my opinion.

You might want to communicate this to Ursula LeGuin. It's really too bad her Earthsea series is such a failure because the books are too short.

caw

preyer · Sep 28, 2007

good point about the courier 'standard' word count per page.

Azraelsbane · Sep 28, 2007

preyer said:
good point about the courier 'standard' word count per page.

Might not want to give people that above link anymore, preyer, as it says the 250 word per page is for 12 pt courier with over 1 inch margins. So if this stuff is correct, that page is wrong.

blacbird · Sep 28, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
Might not want to give people that above link anymore, preyer, as it says the 250 word per page is for 12 pt courier with over 1 inch margins. So if this stuff is correct, that page is wrong.

Echo this. There must be fifty other threads here on this topic, and you'll find the double-spaced Courier 12-pt. 250 WPP estimate mentioned on just about every one of them. If you don't believe it, type up a page of pure full-paragraph descriptive text, and count it. You'll get 25 lines of right around 10 words per line.

Now, as has also been mentioned, dialog will word-count much less, owing to the white space that is obvious from just looking at the page. But, white space doesn't equate to zero in terms of number of pages occupied by a given piece of writing. White space is space taken up, just the same as if it were occupied by words. That's one of the rationales behind using the 250 WPP estimate; it gives you (and an editor) a more accurate estimate of the length of a finished, printed book or story or article than your word-processor's word-count may do.

caw

Word count

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