Comparing your work to...

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seun

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...your other work.

I've been very happy with a couple of my short fiction pieces over the last couple of months. On the other side of that, another few pieces have been crap. I know the best thing to do is judge each piece on its own merits but it's proving hard not to compare the good with the crap and wondering why the pieces that didn't work failed.

Anyone else do this or am I just being anal?
 

Marlys

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I think it's a great idea to compare something that works with something that doesn't, and try to figure out the relative strengths and weaknesses. I'm not sure why you would even hesitate.
 

dolores haze

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Post a piece you think is crap, and get others opinions of why it doesn't work. You're probably just staring at it saying "this is crap" over and over. And, Lord, do I know that feeling.
 

III

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I think short stories are more prone to this since they have to stand on their own, whereas within a novel each chapter has the support and context of the other chapters and the overall story, so you can have a "weaker" or "slower" chapter that gives texture to the story. That's a big reason why I don't feel like I could even write a good short story.
 

WendyNYC

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I'm doing something very different for me right now -- attempting a humorous piece. but I'm finding that, hmmm, maybe I'm not so funny.
 

seun

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Post a piece you think is crap, and get others opinions of why it doesn't work. You're probably just staring at it saying "this is crap" over and over. And, Lord, do I know that feeling.

I'm not that brave :D Seriously, I wouldn't post anything here that I wasn't happy with myself.

I suppose I like to judge each piece on its own strengths. That's been difficult recently and I'm not sure why.
 

ccarver30

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Well, I am re-writing my novel and whenever I read the first version, I cringe. It was so complicated and just, well BAD. I knew it all along too, but just wanted to finish it. I finished it, queried it and realized it was garbage.
TrainWreck.gif


I am soooo happy with how the rewrite is going. I LOVE my story now. :D
 

Jamesaritchie

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...your other work.

I've been very happy with a couple of my short fiction pieces over the last couple of months. On the other side of that, another few pieces have been crap. I know the best thing to do is judge each piece on its own merits but it's proving hard not to compare the good with the crap and wondering why the pieces that didn't work failed.

Anyone else do this or am I just being anal?

Are you sure you're right? The short story that I think is my absolute best has never sold anywhere, to anyone, for any amount of money. It doesn't even pull in good rejections. But the short story that I feel is one of my all-time worst pieces of writing not only sold first time out, it has been reprinted several times.

Honestly, I don't think the way a writer feels about his own work means a thing. The only thing that matters is how editors feel about it.
 
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I don't want to EVER read another post by seun which contains the word 'anal'.
 

seun

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Seeing as I can't get agents or editors to look at my stuff, I'm the one who's right.

For now, at least. :Shrug:
 

CaroGirl

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Are you sure you're right? The short story that I think is my absolute best has never sold anywhere, to anyone, for any amount of money. It doesn't even pull in good rejections. But the short story that I feel is one of my all-time worst pieces of writing not only sold first time out, it has been reprinted several times.

Honestly, I don't think the way a writer feels about his own work means a thing. The only thing that matters is how editors feel about it.
You always say that, but I think that's very unusual. Most professional writers have a clue when they've written a gem (and conversely, when they haven't). What do you believe is so great about the story you can't sell and so awful about the story that sells well? Why are you so off the mark with your own stories?

Maybe I'd have a better idea if ever managed to sell anything of mine, huh?
 

PeeDee

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I wrote a short story that I thought was too sappy, had too crummy of a resolution, didn't go anywhere, was just dumb, dumb, dumb. So I didn't try to sell it. I let it sit for almost a year, maybe a bit longer.

Finally, I needed to send a story to a market, and I didn't have anything else available...so I did a quick spell-check on the first draft, tidied it up for a few minutes, and sent it out.

It published straight away. Easiest sale I've ever had.

:)

...

But yes, I do make the comparisons. I can't help it. Right now, I'm writing my God in the Machine series. It comes fast and easy and sweet. I never burn out. I produce 10-20k in it a week. I delight in it.

And yet, I turn around, and I write a novel...and I trudge and trudge and trudge along and it takes me six months to write seventy thousand words (which took me about five weeks to do, Robot series wise). So why the disconnect? I poke and I poke and try to figure out why.

(I have some ideas on that point.)

It's natural to compare. The trick is to assume that you probably aren't a trustworthy judge. :)
 

musicalzoo

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I had a MS I thought was crap a few months back. deleted it. fast forward a few months, and I realize it was pretty decent. Flip out thinking I would have to re write the whole thing.

find a roughdraft in some obscure file.

my point: we all go through phases when we think out work is crap. maybe it is, maybe it isn't. and if it is, as long as you see your work getting progressively 'less crappy' over time, you're moving in the right direction! :)
 

Jamesaritchie

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You always say that, but I think that's very unusual. Most professional writers have a clue when they've written a gem (and conversely, when they haven't). What do you believe is so great about the story you can't sell and so awful about the story that sells well? Why are you so off the mark with your own stories?

Maybe I'd have a better idea if ever managed to sell anything of mine, huh?

I don't think most professionals do have a clue whether they've produced a gem or a. . .what's a bad thingie opposite of gem? Okay, blown analogy.

Anyway, I think what most professionals writers have is confidence that comes with a good sales record. Sometime in the next few months, I should pass the 100 sales mark on short stories. This means I have confidence in my ability write stories that will sell. It does not mean I have a clue which ones will and which ones won't. It merely means I give each one a serious chance, no matter what I think of it on a personal level.

I find this to be very common with writers who have sold a lot of short stories. Almost all of us still write stories that will only sell to low or no pay magazines, and stories that will not sell at all. If we really knew what was wrong with the stinkers, or even that they were stinkers, we wouldn't send them out in the first place. I mean, even Ray Bradbury still writes short stories that receive a whole string of rejections.

I've also talked to a fair number of writers who are stunned at the story selections editors of best short story anthologies make. The editors frequently take stories the writer thinks are among the worst he sold, and reject stories the writer thinks are among the best he sold.

As for those two stories I mentioned, the one I think is bad just reads flat to me. The characters seem mostly cardboard, and nothing seems to flow well at all. But I couldn't see a way to fix the problems, so I let them stand. The only reason I sent it out is because a rather famous short story editor once said, "It is not the writer's job to judge his stories. Judging stories is the editor's job, so send him the story and let him do his job."

The story that I like so much seems the opposite. I love everything about it. To me, it reads like the perfect story in every possible way. Good beginning, good pace, good, smooth, polished writing, good characters, good dialogue, great ending, etc. But no one wants it. No one even likes it. One editor I respect greatly even sent a little note saying this story was not up to my usual standards.

So I gave up trying to judge my own fiction a long time ago. Honestly, I have not the faintest clue whether something I write is good or bad, salable or unsalable, gem or other thingie. I write them, I fix and obvious problems, if I can, which is not always the case. Sometimes a story just reads terribly to me, and the more I tinker, the worse it reads. So I sigh and drop it in the mail. And I've gotten over being surprised when that's the story an editor loves.
 

Shady Lane

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Christmastime is my favorite ms, as you can probably tell if you glance at my sig and see how many queries I've sent out compared to how many I've sent for Singleton. And yet Singleton has a better success rate.

We don't know anything.

ETA: Okay, I'm not sure if it's mathematically a better success rate, but you get what I'm saying.
 

Raphee

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I don't think most professionals do have a clue whether they've produced a gem or a. . .what's a bad thingie opposite of gem? Okay, blown analogy.

Anyway, I think what most professionals writers have is confidence that comes with a good sales record. Sometime in the next few months, I should pass the 100 sales mark on short stories. This means I have confidence in my ability write stories that will sell. It does not mean I have a clue which ones will and which ones won't. It merely means I give each one a serious chance, no matter what I think of it on a personal level.[qoute]

This would apply to novels as well I assume. I am low on confidence right now.
 

CaroGirl

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I don't think most professionals do have a clue whether they've produced a gem or a. . .what's a bad thingie opposite of gem? Okay, blown analogy.

Anyway, I think what most professionals writers have is confidence that comes with a good sales record. Sometime in the next few months, I should pass the 100 sales mark on short stories. This means I have confidence in my ability write stories that will sell. It does not mean I have a clue which ones will and which ones won't. It merely means I give each one a serious chance, no matter what I think of it on a personal level.

I find this to be very common with writers who have sold a lot of short stories. Almost all of us still write stories that will only sell to low or no pay magazines, and stories that will not sell at all. If we really knew what was wrong with the stinkers, or even that they were stinkers, we wouldn't send them out in the first place. I mean, even Ray Bradbury still writes short stories that receive a whole string of rejections.

I've also talked to a fair number of writers who are stunned at the story selections editors of best short story anthologies make. The editors frequently take stories the writer thinks are among the worst he sold, and reject stories the writer thinks are among the best he sold.

As for those two stories I mentioned, the one I think is bad just reads flat to me. The characters seem mostly cardboard, and nothing seems to flow well at all. But I couldn't see a way to fix the problems, so I let them stand. The only reason I sent it out is because a rather famous short story editor once said, "It is not the writer's job to judge his stories. Judging stories is the editor's job, so send him the story and let him do his job."

The story that I like so much seems the opposite. I love everything about it. To me, it reads like the perfect story in every possible way. Good beginning, good pace, good, smooth, polished writing, good characters, good dialogue, great ending, etc. But no one wants it. No one even likes it. One editor I respect greatly even sent a little note saying this story was not up to my usual standards.

So I gave up trying to judge my own fiction a long time ago. Honestly, I have not the faintest clue whether something I write is good or bad, salable or unsalable, gem or other thingie. I write them, I fix and obvious problems, if I can, which is not always the case. Sometimes a story just reads terribly to me, and the more I tinker, the worse it reads. So I sigh and drop it in the mail. And I've gotten over being surprised when that's the story an editor loves.
That was a great answer. Thanks James.
 

Garpy

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I echo James' thoughts here. I personally have no idea on whether I'm writing crap or something worthwhile.

The only analogy I can think of is that writing is like singing along to your favourite song whilst you've got headphones on. You know you're singing, you know people can hear you...you've got no idea however, whether it was in tune or not until you take the headphones off and ask 'how was I?'
 

CaroGirl

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I echo James' thoughts here. I personally have no idea on whether I'm writing crap or something worthwhile.
The only thing I'm having a problem with is the contradictory advice that 1) you need to learn to self-edit; 2) you can't judge the quality of your own work. If I can't judge the quality of my work, how am I supposed to self-edit it? To edit, I need to know what works and what doesn't, but I'm apparently not qualified to know this about my work. I know I'm probably boiling it down too much, or I might be talking apples and oranges, but I don't think so. I'm sure that to be a professional writer you have to be able to judge the quality of your writing somewhat in order to be able to edit it into publishable shape. No?
 

Jamesaritchie

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The only thing I'm having a problem with is the contradictory advice that 1) you need to learn to self-edit; 2) you can't judge the quality of your own work. If I can't judge the quality of my work, how am I supposed to self-edit it? To edit, I need to know what works and what doesn't, but I'm apparently not qualified to know this about my work. I know I'm probably boiling it down too much, or I might be talking apples and oranges, but I don't think so. I'm sure that to be a professional writer you have to be able to judge the quality of your writing somewhat in order to be able to edit it into publishable shape. No?

The two things do seem contradictory, don't they. But I know when some things are wrong with a story. I know all the mechanical aspects, for example. I think I know when a sentence reads horribly. I think I know when the writing is choppy and doesn't flow. And I do think, "Well, this would read better if I did this, or there would be more suspense if I did that, etc." Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, but I think such things, and make changes accordingly.

What I don't know is whether it works as a story. It's those nebulous elements such as story, characterization, imagination, etc., that I haven't a clue about. I simply cannot tell whether I've written a story that anyone, anywhere, would enjoy reading.

For me, the answer to "If I can't judge the quality of my work, how am I supposed to self-edit it?" is that I simply do the best I can do, and that has to be enough.

The thing is this; I don't think anyone else can judge the quality, either, except in relationship to what that particular editor, and most of his particular readers, will enjoy.

An editor knows what he likes, and if he's any good, he also knows what the majority of his readers will like. But even he doesn't know what another editor will like, or what the majority of that editor's readers will like.

Really, I try to please editors as much as I try to please myself, simply because I have no idea how to judge the true quality of anything I write.

I mean, don't we all think what we write is good? The slush piles are filled to overflowing with bad stories, and this includes huge numbers of stories that have been read by many beta readers, by hired editors, by critique groups, etc. I have no doubt the beta readers, the hired editors, and the critique groups are telling the writers the stories are now good enough, that they like the stories, that the stories should be submitted, but the large majority of stories in any slush pile remain terrible, even when beta readers, hired editors, and critique groups have all had a go at them.

I doubt any of us would submit a story we knew was bad, knew didn't have a chance in hell of selling. If any of us, or if beta readers, hired editors, or critique groups could judge quality, could judge what works and what doesn't work, any better than we can, the slush piles would be overflowing with good stories, not bad ones.

Editors, I think, judge mechanical qualities very well, and story/character quality better than most of us, but it's also true that even most stories that editors buy soon vanish without a trace, and the stories that do survive and last are as much a mystery as the ones that vanish.

We do the best we can, as writers, and as editors, and we hope it's enough.
 

qdsb

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I suppose this distinction between judging and learning is the key.

We can't know with certainty what themes or qualities or trends editors might find most appealing at any given time.

But we can look at our own body of work in order to learn what our individual shortcomings as writers might be...to see how a certain technique or character or imagery may be handled better in one story than in another.
 

Will Lavender

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For me, if the writing is effortless then I know I've got something. If it's a slog every time I sit down at the computer, I simply go for as long as I can and then throw it out.

I've killed parts of seven novels this summer. Almost half a million words sent to the recycle bin and deleted.

If I can open a Word document after 100 pages and reread what I've written with interest, then I know I'm on the right track. I've never bought into the "If it's difficult, that means you're doing something right" adage. That has never been true for me. If writing or storytelling is difficult for me, something's wrong.
 
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