Breaking every rule of first screenplays: is it worth doing?

is it worth doing? i say go for it! it's all about execution... but not only do you have to do it right for something like this you have to find the perfect producing market or attachment (like john woo for example).

1) It's mostly Asians. No white people in pivotal roles. This is no "Last Samurai" or "Shogun" where white-guy-goes-to-Japan-and-saves-the-day.
2) It's an historical drama.
3) It needs a lot of old style Asian boats (that is: expensive to produce)

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these are hardly breaking the rules:
1 - this has been a problem with african movies for years but most recently films with no white hero have done well with the critics and the public: the last king of scotland and hotel rwanda vs black diamond. it's a politically correct trend to not assume the audience needs a great white hope - so don't give them one.
2 - this is not a rule breaker. it's just difficult to find a producer who wants to tackle a period piece. but they make one good one every year. like i said you have to find the right producing market.
3 - not expensive like sci fi boats and if made in china they'd be really, really cheap

Why straight to Hollywood? The story sounds terrific, and your excitement is infectious. But there's a well established Chinese/Hong Kong film industry. Is there a reason you think they wouldn't be interested?

Just as there is NO SPOON

there are no RULES. (other then industry standard format.)

There are only obstacles to be faced and overcome.

If this is a story you can write, want to write, then do it!
Worry about filming it later.

And I agree with Nikee 100%. The white save the world hero is so overdone and so stupid.

All your hero needs is a fantastic character arc, great motivation, a worthy advesary, and a human connection with the rest of us mere mortals.

I say go for it, a good story is always worth writing. Make the characters memorable and relatable and you won't have a problem what their skin color is.

Billingsgate said:

Of course I thought of that. The Hong Kong film industry doesn't have budgets these days. Modern-day piracy has pretty much killed the film business in HK. From several hundred films a year in the 1980s down to under 40 a year now, mostly low-budget gangster movies. And, quite simply, I can't write in Chinese, and the HK/China film industry is geared for the local Chinese market.

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Oh, I see. That's a shame about the HK budget situation.

I say write it. It sounds great. I loved Bertolucci's "The Last Emperor". It had Hollywood funding, English language, Euro director, Asian cast (and crew?), and China let them film on location. It can be done.

Maybe, when you're ready to start shopping it around, you could hedge your bets, and have it translated into Chinese. There's obviously some constraints working within the Chinese system, but the more options the better.

Good luck.

Billingsgate said:

And, quite simply, I can't write in Chinese, and the HK/China film industry is geared for the local Chinese market.

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You don't have to write in Chinese, it can be translated (A UCLA Grad student who doesn't speak Cantonese wrote 'Fulltime Killer' starring Andy Lau). And that's completely not true about the HK/China market. Have you checked out the film festival rosters lately? There's usually more Chinese films than American films. China has been making huge, expensive, crossover movies for years now (Hero, The Promise, John Woo's Red Cliff movie). Nothing in Asian is geared to the local market anymore. At the very least it's geared Pan-Asian (which is why every movie stars one mainlander, one hk star and one Korean).

Also, Hollywood is pumping money into the Chinese film industry. Warner Bros and a couple other studios are very active over there and own sound stages and fund films.

Given it was based on a best selling novel, but Geisha did get made with an Asian cast. And it wasn't that long ago that Crouching Tiger made $100mil. Keep an eye out for how Woo's Red Cliff (big budget, all Asian) does. And there's long been talk of a Zheng He movie which would be in the same vein as yours. Keep an eye out for it and see how it does. If any of these are successful, then all Asian cast action movies could be all the rage very quickly (after Gladiator there was a fire sale on Sword & Sandal).

Historical drama doesn't break the rules, Hollywood loves historical dramas. Big budget isn't necessarily a problem either, it just changes how you try to sell it (like you're not going to find a low budget producer or production company). You'll never know what Hollywood wants so just write what you want and go from there.

Billingsgate said:

A story has fallen into my lap - based on a true story - that is so exciting that I'm determined to do something with it. Yet it seems to break all the received wisdom of what movie makers might want. I'm vacillating over whether to put in the enormous energy it will take to write it.

On the plus side: it's the epic life story of a way-larger-than-life real historical figure, which involves kidnapping, slavery, piracy, incest, greed, one of the largest naval battles in history, as well as the personal journey of this person from lowly peasant to the peaks of power. The story, which I have been researching from obscure texts and academic papers, is almost ready-written for the screen. There are bad guys and high-ranking corrupt officials, shocking treachery, a heart-wrenching four-way love story with a hugely surprising twist, lots of chases and close calls, intrigue and suspense, and even a happily-ever-after ending. Sounds like a natural for a Hollywood blockbuster, right?

Here's where it breaks the rules:

1) It's mostly Asians. No white people in pivotal roles. This is no "Last Samurai" or "Shogun" where white-guy-goes-to-Japan-and-saves-the-day.
2) It's an historical drama.
3) It needs a lot of old style Asian boats (that is: expensive to produce)

Am I nuts to pursue this? My own experience is in writing TV animation and ultra-low-budget sitcoms. This would be my first attempt at a feature-length screenplay (add that to the list of things going against me). I don't have the knack to write it as a novel, and a documentary approach would suck the life out of the story. It just seems ready-made for the big, wide screen.

Anyone have feedback? Am I wasting my time even thinking about this story until I someday, hopefully, have some solid big screen credentials?

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Okay, here are my thoughts -- and please don't be discouraged.

First -- any reason that you can think of not to make the movie, presume that whoever you send it to, they will think of that reason too, plus other reasons.

Therefore, you must have, in your thinking, as you're writing, counter-reasons -- reasons why, in fact, they *have* to make this movie. And if those reasons aren't there, ready at hand, in your mind and on your lips, you're in trouble.

Hollywood not only shouldn't have reasons for not making this movie -- they *need* to make this movie. They've got to make this movie immediately. This is the movie that they've been waiting for.

Why, it's just like a huge, recent successful franchise, say, oh, I don't know, maybe -- Pirates of the Carribean? -- only different.

And Hollywood likes that.

As for there not being any Westerners in it.

Come close. Here's a secret. Shhh.

This is a story. Yes, I know all about the research. And historical accuracy. That's all great.

It's a story. And if you want to have a significant character or two who are non-Asian -- you just write them in. Then they're there. And that solves that problem.

But they've got to be significant enough that they can be "star" cast -- because if it's going to be a big Hollywood movie, it's going to have to have major star names, and that means major non-Asian stars, presumably male and female. So the parts have to be big enough and significant enough to the story to justify that kind of casting.

Does this tamper with history?

Hell, in Gladiator, they had the main character kill the Emperor of Rome in the Colosseum.

So yes -- but that's life.

The alternative is to write the whole thing as a novel, hope that it becomes an enormous bestseller and then gets bought and adapted to the screen.

But as someone mentioned, they tried that with "Geisha" -- and it bombed -- and that's a reasons *not* to make this movie with an all-asian cast.

You don't want reasons for not making the movie.

NMS

Have you considered the Japanese or Korean film industry? I get the impression your story is set in China, but stories set in China can appeal to those audiences too.

You say it would be expensive to produce b/c of the boats. It would probably be quite expensive to do in the contemporary Hollywood studio feature style. OTOH, there are probably ways to do it cheaper with models, green screen, computer animation, on set recreations, etc.

Done cheaper it might make a good serial for Korean or Japanese television. They do like historical costume dramas, especially in Korea.

Since you think it's a great story, go for it. Passion counts for a lot. If it's unmakeable as a feature, it could be makeable as a paperback, a graphic novel, a TV serial.

What the hell??
Go for it. Another string to your bow.

K

If the story is as compelling as you indicate, there is no reason not to follow it through.

The question that came to mind isn't related to what you posted. You say it is based on a true story. Are you wanting to write the actual true story or base your screenplay on the true story? If it is the actual true story, are the rights available? On the other hand, if you are just basing it on the true story, you have so much leverage there... you could make it in outer space with an all green cast, who travel on solar pirate ships. If you're making the choice of how much to "base" it on... well have fun! You have a blank canvas with some great details already filled in.

Billingsgate said:

A story has fallen into my lap - based on a true story - that is so exciting that I'm determined to do something with it. Yet it seems to break all the received wisdom of what movie makers might want. I'm vacillating over whether to put in the enormous energy it will take to write it.

On the plus side: it's the epic life story of a way-larger-than-life real historical figure, which involves kidnapping, slavery, piracy, incest, greed, one of the largest naval battles in history, as well as the personal journey of this person from lowly peasant to the peaks of power. The story, which I have been researching from obscure texts and academic papers, is almost ready-written for the screen. There are bad guys and high-ranking corrupt officials, shocking treachery, a heart-wrenching four-way love story with a hugely surprising twist, lots of chases and close calls, intrigue and suspense, and even a happily-ever-after ending. Sounds like a natural for a Hollywood blockbuster, right?

Here's where it breaks the rules:

1) It's mostly Asians. No white people in pivotal roles. This is no "Last Samurai" or "Shogun" where white-guy-goes-to-Japan-and-saves-the-day.
2) It's an historical drama.
3) It needs a lot of old style Asian boats (that is: expensive to produce)

Am I nuts to pursue this? My own experience is in writing TV animation and ultra-low-budget sitcoms. This would be my first attempt at a feature-length screenplay (add that to the list of things going against me). I don't have the knack to write it as a novel, and a documentary approach would suck the life out of the story. It just seems ready-made for the big, wide screen.

Anyone have feedback? Am I wasting my time even thinking about this story until I someday, hopefully, have some solid big screen credentials?

Click to expand...

Dear writer, non of these rules that you mention exist. The only thing that exist or ever existed is respect for the audience to be taken in by the art of storytelling. If you believe this story needs to be told, then tell it. Have courage to increase new territory for cinema.

Lastly if your story is as good as it sounds, and you don't write it, be rest assured that I will.

that's not breaking rules, t hat's just not casting white folk. which can be done.


here's what you need to add to your sp to really break rules:

1) kill your protagonist in the first 10 pages.
2) vampires. lots and lots of them.
3) make it about making a movie.
4) or about being a screenwriter that can't get paid.
5) a western.
6) Use Voice Over's a lot.


combine all of those, and you will have successfully ignored every guideline touted by any guru, book, or message board postee.
Good luck!

WL,

you forgot:

We see.

As for there not being any Westerners in it.

Come close. Here's a secret. Shhh.

This is a story. Yes, I know all about the research. And historical accuracy. That's all great.

It's a story. And if you want to have a significant character or two who are non-Asian -- you just write them in. Then they're there. And that solves that problem.

Click to expand...

actually, that just perpetuates the problem. the problem that white men think they should always be the hero. don't do it! the future trends are going against that non politically correct direction anyway.

then later, if you get some interest and tom cruise will do it but he won't get the plastic surgery to squint his eyes then you can compromise in your rewriting the white dude in there

NikeeGoddess said:

actually, that just perpetuates the problem. the problem that white men think they should always be the hero. don't do it! the future trends are going against that non politically correct direction anyway.

then later, if you get some interest and tom cruise will do it but he won't get the plastic surgery to squint his eyes then you can compromise in your rewriting the white dude in there

Click to expand...

You want to reduce this down to a problem of racism. It isn't. There are African Americans who can open movies in the U.S. market who are as big as any "white men."

But as far as Asians, you've got two. Really, one and a half. Jackie Chan and Jet Li. And Jet Li is iffy.

From what the original poster described, Jackie Chan would clearly be completely inappropriate for a movie like this.

That leaves one possibility. That is, a movie of this scale, in order to be viable in an American market, has to have a star that is recognizable to an American audience or it won't get made. If that "one possibility" isn't interested, that's it. Game over.

This is like a book that came the way of a company I worked for a number of years ago. It was a great book. A great character. But the whole point of the character was that he was this big huge guy -- a detective who was over six feet tall and weighed like three hundred pounds.

That point was central to his character, to the story -- you couldn't change it.

Well, at the time, who could you cast. One guy. John Goodman. That was it. There wasn't anybody else who had any name value who could have played that part.

So what do you do? Lay out the money to option this book and develop a screenplay -- and then hope that maybe this one actor will be interested? And if not, throw it out?

And even if he had been interested in it, that's no guarantee that the movie would have been made, because it's not as if John Goodman necessarily meant a slam dunk.

That would have been crazy. So we passed on it.

And that's why a script like this would likely be passed on.

It's not a question of racism. It's question of dollars.

Put 25 million into a Jet Li action movie -- you get a decent return.

Put a hundred million dollars into a huge epic starring Jet Li that would need to earn something around half a billion dollars to justify its costs?

Hold on. Let's check what Jet Li's movies generally make -- what his name brings in.

Sorry. Pass.

And that's if -- and it's a big if -- that you could get Jet Li.

Who else? Chow Yun Fat? Great actor -- in Hollywood terms, as a lead -- as a star who could open a movie in the U.S. -- his name means nothing.

And that's why they're not going to buy this movie. Not because they're racists -- but because it's a tentpole movie -- a big summer movie, and you put a big summer movie with an all-asian cast and no recognizable names and no other "I.D." factor against X-Men Four and Iron Man 2 and Speed Racer 2 and Harry Potter 7 -- nobody will go to see it.

And while we're on the subject -- this idea of "I'll do it my way and if they insist on my changing it, then I will" -- is a toxic approach.

You remember what your Mom used to say about first impressions? This applies to script as well. Your script will have one shot to make its best first impression. The idea that - well, I think they won't like it, but I like, so I'm leaving it in but I'll change it if they pay me to --

-- what they'll most likely do is simply not pay you at all, but simply not buy your script.

If you think that "they" won't like it -- what you're really telling yourself is that something in your script isn't going to work for "them" -- by which you mean your audience, the people you are writing your script for. Not the people in the theatres, but the people who buy scripts.

And if it isn't going to work for "them" -- then you have some work to do. You need to find a way to make it work for them. And if you work hard enough, maybe you can find a way to make it work for them, and for you too.

But it's ridiculous to write a script that works for you, that isn't going to work for them. Because all they do is look for reasons not to buy your script, and if you give them one, they won't.

NMS

relax dude!

okay billi so that's about 10 who say "go for it" and 1 who says go the old school nothin' gonna change in hollyweird way. it all comes down to you.

Mamet has some interesting things to say about this in Bambi vs Godzilla.

The basic dilemma is write- like -everyone- else vs write- differently.

Mamet comes down on the side of write-differently, but of course, he would.

The next big breakthrough, the next Reservoir Dogs, for example, will most certainly come from someone who writes differently. But so will the 999 failures.

I subcribe to the get-something-made school, with the goal of staying true the story and the characters while getting it done within budget. Everything doesn't have to be a blockbuster feature film. In fact, some stories don't work in the big budget feature film mode.

Oprah Winfrey made Toni Morrison's Beloved into a big budget feature. It bombed. The story could have been told more effectively, with more room for novelistic detail, as a 12 episode miniseries, with a cost of say 2 mil an episode. It would have reached a wider audience too.

odocoileus said:

The basic dilemma is write- like -everyone- else vs write- differently.

The next big breakthrough, the next Reservoir Dogs, for example, will most certainly come from someone who writes differently. But so will the 999 failures.

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I agree but this exemple proves that if you want to make it different you have to make it cheap also.
I'm not sure that a studio can take risks both in the budget and in the screenplay of the movie and that's what Billingsgate hopes. Honestly you cannot make "Being John Malkovich in space"...


... but that would be fun!

nmstevens said:

You want to reduce this down to a problem of racism. It isn't. There are African Americans who can open movies in the U.S. market who are as big as any "white men."

But as far as Asians, you've got two. Really, one and a half. Jackie Chan and Jet Li. And Jet Li is iffy.

...

That leaves one possibility. That is, a movie of this scale, in order to be viable in an American market, has to have a star that is recognizable to an American audience or it won't get made. If that "one possibility" isn't interested, that's it. Game over.

Click to expand...

But here is the problem with this approach -- there are a couple threads now about writing for particular actors or who you think will be a big actor -- but the truth is you don't know.

All you need is one Asian actor to break through on the market and make a big splash and then studios will be dying to find product for that actor.

After Rush Hour was a success, they had to scrape together Shanghai Noon to get Jackie Chan in another buddy action comedy. If, at the time, you had a buddy action comedy with an Asian guy, I promise you you would have been able to sell it.

You never know when another Esther Williams is going to break through and there'll be an insane demand for movies featuring synchronized swimming.

The point is that you can't predict the market. It doesn't make sense to write a romantic comedy for Meg Ryan because she's a big star and then by the time you finish it, get an agent and get a production company interested she's no longer viable at the box office.

While there'll always be a market and a need for scripts featuring attractive white male in his late 30s, not everyone wants to write that movie. Anyone in their right mind would tell you that writing Driving Miss Daisy would be a waste of your time (an old lady and a black guy?), but you never know.

The point is, the Asian market is absolutely on the rise. They opened Spider-man 3 in Japan before they opened it here because the market is so important. You can tell how important the Asian market is simply by how much money the studios are pumping into it. Look at the trades on any given day and read about big budget Asian-Hollywood co-productions.

And Pan-Asian films have been very very successful in the past few years, showing that they are their own market and they don't even need Hollywood. And because there are stars in Asia that are bigger in Asia (and not just in one country, but in a dozen countries) than Hollywood stars are, it's only a matter of time before they cross over.

For instance, Rain (a singer/actor from Korea) is going to be in the Wachowski's Speed Racer -- who is to say he won't break through over here? In Time's reader poll of the most 100 influential people in the world this year, he ranked no.1. -- above Presidents and Hollywood movie stars. He had almost half a million votes, twice as much as the candidate who came in second (Stephen Colbert). It's only a matter of time till he breaks through.

I think there is definitely a future and a market in Asian stars. And I also think you should write whatever you want. It's impossible and generally a waste of time to try to write for what you think the market is.

NikeeGoddess said:

relax dude!

okay billi so that's about 10 who say "go for it" and 1 who says go the old school nothin' gonna change in hollyweird way. it all comes down to you.

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You have ten who say go for it, and one who says go the old school way. But you've got to consider the one who says go the old school way is the only one with significant credits under his belt. This isn't wikipedia - it's not about consensus, it's about credentials.

Sadly, there are very few Asians who are percived to be able to open a movie (perception is reality). The big three right now are Jackie, Jet and Chow.

The up-and-comers include Aaron Yu, Leonardo Nam and John Cho - all of these guys got their start playing second (or third) fiddle to white boys in well reviewed movies. They'd need to play the lead in a low budget movie that opened EXTRAORDINARY well to become box office names (Kal Penn is on his way up, he followed this strategy in films before ducking into TV).

Newcomer Rain is promising and amazingly talented, but they clearly don't trust him to carry the movie - it's called SPEED RACER, not Speed Racer's South Korean pal.

It sounds like the original poster is passionate about this idea, and to that end, he can always write it - it might even work as a sample, but there is a brass tacks reality to the business.

Breaking into Hollywood is nigh-impossible, why make it harder by spending a year of your life developing a spec that (at present) is uncastable?

nothing is uncastable. have you seen apocolypto? no white guys, no stars, no hollyweird actors... and it was nominated for 3 oscars.

and imo credentials don't have that much weight unless they are one who can greenlight or pass. something like this could get greenlit with a john woo attachment. forget the actors - it's not your job anyway - find a director or producer who can share your passion.

zeprosnepsid said:

But here is the problem with this approach -- there are a couple threads now about writing for particular actors or who you think will be a big actor -- but the truth is you don't know.

All you need is one Asian actor to break through on the market and make a big splash and then studios will be dying to find product for that actor.

After Rush Hour was a success, they had to scrape together Shanghai Noon to get Jackie Chan in another buddy action comedy. If, at the time, you had a buddy action comedy with an Asian guy, I promise you you would have been able to sell it.

You never know when another Esther Williams is going to break through and there'll be an insane demand for movies featuring synchronized swimming.

The point is that you can't predict the market. It doesn't make sense to write a romantic comedy for Meg Ryan because she's a big star and then by the time you finish it, get an agent and get a production company interested she's no longer viable at the box office.

While there'll always be a market and a need for scripts featuring attractive white male in his late 30s, not everyone wants to write that movie. Anyone in their right mind would tell you that writing Driving Miss Daisy would be a waste of your time (an old lady and a black guy?), but you never know.

The point is, the Asian market is absolutely on the rise. They opened Spider-man 3 in Japan before they opened it here because the market is so important. You can tell how important the Asian market is simply by how much money the studios are pumping into it. Look at the trades on any given day and read about big budget Asian-Hollywood co-productions.

And Pan-Asian films have been very very successful in the past few years, showing that they are their own market and they don't even need Hollywood. And because there are stars in Asia that are bigger in Asia (and not just in one country, but in a dozen countries) than Hollywood stars are, it's only a matter of time before they cross over.

For instance, Rain (a singer/actor from Korea) is going to be in the Wachowski's Speed Racer -- who is to say he won't break through over here? In Time's reader poll of the most 100 influential people in the world this year, he ranked no.1. -- above Presidents and Hollywood movie stars. He had almost half a million votes, twice as much as the candidate who came in second (Stephen Colbert). It's only a matter of time till he breaks through.

I think there is definitely a future and a market in Asian stars. And I also think you should write whatever you want. It's impossible and generally a waste of time to try to write for what you think the market is.

Click to expand...

Foreign markets, such as the far east are important as a *percentage* of big budget American films. They would never justify, on their own, the making of a hundred million dollar movie.

And in the same way, a movie like "Dragon Wars" can make a certain amount of money in American theatres, but never enough money *here* to justify an American studio making such a movie.

The importance of American movies in Asian markets isn't going to translate into Asian stars grabbing a significant slice of the U.S. market.

Certainly, if you're writing a script now, you'd be looking to sell it -- when?

Six months from now (presuming the strike doesn't shut everything down)?

A year from now?

Well, between now and then, what are movies in production with male or female asian leads that might be released and make enough money to propel those male or female asian leads to star levels in the American market?

I don't know of any.

And even if there were one or two such movies and they both miraculously hit and propelled their stars into those realms -- what would we have?

Now, instead of two Asian actors who were bankable in the U.S. -- you'd have three, or maybe four.

Look, I can buy two lottery tickets and in the process double my odds of winning.


Yes, my chances are, in fact, now twice as good as they were. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that they were good.

And that's presuming very unlikely set of circumstances to begin with -- namely that some currently unknown or little known Asian stars break through and become bankable in the near future.

NMS

NikeeGoddess said:

nothing is uncastable. have you seen apocolypto? no white guys, no stars, no hollyweird actors... and it was nominated for 3 oscars.

and imo credentials don't have that much weight unless they are one who can greenlight or pass. something like this could get greenlit with a john woo attachment. forget the actors - it's not your job anyway - find a director or producer who can share your passion.

Click to expand...

Brilliant - all you need to do is be Mel Gibson, and you to can make a movie like Apocalypto.