the 'rules' of writing, i.e. what you'll find in a critique....

Status
Not open for further replies.

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
first off, i don't mean for this to be another endless debate on the value of a critique (or lack thereof). if you don't use critiques or give them, there's really not much for you to add, eh?, so why start a fight?

nor is this meant to be the end-all-be-all of 'how to write effectively.' it's just put down here to be some handy advice for those who may not think they're ready for a critique, though some of the 'rules' we tend to spout usually help the material out. it's not comprehensive (at least on my end), so feel free to add. note: if you're concerned about critiques and choose to challenge the very notion of them, there's about a dozen other recent-ish threads to choose from. this ain't one of 'em unless there's an issue with a specific 'rule.'

that said, here are few of the most common 'rules' you'll find broken:

POV ~ regardless of how poorly written a published book is, it's most certainly got a handle on the POV (point of view).

tense ~ like POV, the worst authors (bad writers often call themselves 'authors') have a handle on the tense. very often inexperienced writers will slip from present tense to past tense without realizing it.

beginning a sentence with an '-ing' word ~ sometimes a writer has the character start off the sentence doing something that ends in '-ing' and towards the middle or end has the character performing a different action at the same time. for example: 'Looking out the window at the falling snow, Biff painted the ceiling with blood.' not the best example, but the idea is that the character can't be doing two things at the same time.

active/passive voice ~ in this sense, 'passive voice' contains 'passive' verbs (for lack of a better term, but it's pretty well understood). these are 'to be' verbs, such as 'had' and 'were.' 'was,' while not technically a 'passive verb,' tends to make a sentence *sound* passive. of course you should use the voice appropriate for the story, it's really a warning to use passive voice when you *choose* to, not writing 100k words of it because you're ignorant that such a thing exists. you're always going to need these 'passive verbs,' 'was' in particular (eventhough it tends to be one most over-used), it's just that our critical advice is to not make it excessive.

prepositional words ~ words like 'up' and 'down' and 'out' are often used excessively. 'up' is perhaps the biggest culprit on average. it's really pointed out to keep the sentences from being repetitive.

dialogue tags ~ there are plenty of ways the reader can be clued in on as to whom is speaking, and this isn't a list of those. typically, dialogue tags have a bad reputation because they're pointless, such as, "'...do we?" Biff asked,' when biff is the obvious speaker.

info-dumps ~ this is another major problem for new writers, giving the reader excessive exposition/background usually in the form of a prologue (which is why a lot of people hate prologues, i think, lol) and/or huge chunks. again, you have to be the judge of what your target audience expects, but generally three long-winded paragraphs what doesn't seem to have much to do with nothing at the moment isn't advisable. our typical advice is to break the information up, drop a line here and there, keep some for later, and hide it by showing the information.

show, don't tell ~ here's another major error critiquers either get giddy by pointing our or miserable because they see so much of it. lines like, 'biff felt frozen,' will almost invariably get flagged. the idea in the particular example is we want to feel biff's frozeness so we can relate to his situation and character better. showing is also a good way of hiding some of your exposition.

purple prose ~ all of the above have some level of subjectivity to them, though they are what they are 90% of the time. purple prose, on the other hand, i feel has a lot more subjectivity about it. adverbs and adjectives are what makes bad purple prose sound ridiculous. some people like certain levels of purple prose, some hate it all and decry it as poor writing making vain attempts at pulling at heartstrings by creating absurd idyllic situations. or something like that. the best advice i could give is make it appropriate for the story and your audience, but know that excessive purple prose doesn't tend to help the story as much as stroke the author's ego. as with any of these things, your best bet is to research them and find out how, when, where and why these are or aren't the best option. in a critique, most of us point out what we consider to be purple prose and leave it at that.

editing for word count ~ again, this is pretty subjective, just like how the writer decides to arrange his story. you'll hear a lot about reducing the story by 10%. sometimes this is excellent advice, sometimes not so much. sometimes 10% isn't near enough. the benefit of excising 10% is you can get rid of a lot of small, needless words ('passive verbs' and pronouns spring to mind), and can result in you rethinking your prose forever. one of the caveats i've run across is making sure to remove words and not rewriting the sentence that begins with an '-ing' word (see above). one of the benefits is it can help remove a lot of passive voice if you're prone to writing that (which is very common). very often you'll see commentary such as, 'this is a little wordy.' usually the critiquer has a point, but it's up to you how wordy or how sparse you want it.

those are some of the main 'rules' i can think of off the top of my head, and these are all very common 'mistakes.' granted, a lot of a critique advice is written in stone just as a lot of it is pure opinion. with the exception of purple prose, these are more in the middle, but leaning towards the stoney part slightly, imo (some more than others). and it's true that you'll find these broken quite often in published stories and, hey, that's fantastic, but it's like i've always said, 'my critique isn't the fast track to getting published, but there's a good chance it'll make it a better story.' the idea is not to write out of ignorance, rather make the story the best you can by choosing all, some or none of the 'rules' and make it more attractive to the editor and audience. after all, it makes no sense not to write better than the next guy if you can help it, eh? that is, is it likely to hurt the story if you remove the passive voice? probably not, but it's a decision you have to make ~ smart writing is about excercising the right options. you have to know what those options are.

anyone care to add to the 'rules'?
 
Last edited:

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
11,724
Reaction score
2,085
Website
peterdamien.com
I think I'll add to the rules in a minute, but I just want to say, preyer, that I wouldn't object if you kept doing these lengthy posts-about-things. They're useful and accurate and generally wonderful.
 

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
thanks, pd. i hope it helps someone consider their story for such things and gain the confidence of seeking peer approval.
 

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
11,724
Reaction score
2,085
Website
peterdamien.com
Actually, if I add anything, it's just to bitch about Info Dumps. boy do I hate them. They almost never work. I see them in short stories every now and then -- whether I'm slush reading, or just reading casually in the SYW area -- and my immediate reaction is always 1) This can be integrated elsewhere 2) This whole entire scene can be cut without exception.

The problem comes from the writer being disconnected a bit from the reader. So there's some major chunk of history that the WRITER feels is important for the reader to know. The writer knows this because he already knows that information, he knows how he views the story through it, he must get it in.

The READER, however, has started the story without that information and has formed his own opinions and colored the story his own way. So then along comes the info dump, be it back story or motivational or scientific, and it screws things up.

- It pulls the reader out of the story, because the momentum goes thud.

- It's probably boring, or it wouldn't be an info dump. Cleverly disguise it as a conversation. A good conversation.

It's like having a boring intermission in the middle of Braveheart to explain how, 100 years prior, the socio-political climate of England and Scotland led to the tension which caused William Wallace and the others to revolt. If you had an intermission like that, it would be silly. It would be John Cleese, at a desk in the middle of nowhere, going "And now for something completely different..."
 

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
11,724
Reaction score
2,085
Website
peterdamien.com
thanks, pd. i hope it helps someone consider their story for such things and gain the confidence of seeking peer approval.

The confidence to see peer approval,

The serenity to take peers' comments into consideration peacefully

The wisdom to know changes to make.

That would make me happy. :)
 

zornhau

Swordsman
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
1,491
Reaction score
167
Location
Scotland
Website
www.livejournal.com
Filtering and Time-line Violation

I think a lot of the so called rules are really the elaborations of: "All characters, personified forces and the outside world must be seen to take sequential turns."

The biggy which hurts to read is "filtering": redundant words drawing attention to the POV character's role as POV:
Eric saw the big Viking and thought that the axe looked dangerous so drew his laser pistol. It seemed to him that the world contracted to just that double-headed blade...etc
Another is Time-line Violation:
Eric died when the big Viking hit him repeatedly with an axe.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,159
Location
The right earlobe of North America
My experience with info-dumps is that, commonly, most or all of the "info" presented in such a crude manner is unnecessary and can be jettisoned to great benefit.

caw
 

JoNightshade

has finally arrived
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
7,153
Reaction score
4,140
Website
www.ramseyhootman.com
This is not really a rule, but seeing an obviously unedited first draft posted is kind of annoying. You should make sure your work is the best you know how to make it before asking for critiques. That way you know you're getting advice that really helps you. If all people are commenting on is stuff you already know about and were "going to change," then what's the point of the critique?
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
When I critique, I try not not to focus on the rules. Sure, there are rules such as grammar or spelling, and best practices such as POVs, show vs. tell, etc. But in truth, and from my experience, they're not separate good writers from bad writers. I've read great writers who couldn't spell worth a damn, or place commas anywhere they please, but you can simply tell they write very well by what they have to say and how they get you into the story "despite" all the errors.

Rules, guidelines and best practices are there because they're tried and true ways of communicating ideas and keeping your readers engaged, and it's beneficial for new writers to learn and master them just as a new painter should master the concepts of colors and brush strokes. On the other hand, I don't want to stress these mechanics when I critique a piece of writing. Instead, I look at the content and the way all the wheels and cogs work together.

For example, info dump is generally not the best way to tell a story, but if it's done well, I'm not going to say "take it out because info dump is 100% bad." I try to look at how well a technique or executive work within the context and construct. Does it serve its purpose, or does it take me out of the story? There are times when we are too hung up on rules that it deflects us from what really is important in writing.

One other thing is purple prose -- I agree it's very subjective. There are some clearly bad ones because they fail to communicate what is being said. It takes the readers out of the story and all they see are words, yada yada. On the other hand, writers such as Michael Chabon have been accused of being purple (someone even went as far to say Chabon was the King of Purple Prose) and yet I find their prose gorgeous, intricate and complex.

Writers, at times, can let their biases affect their ability to effectively critique work. They immediately stop reading when they see things they consider "poor" writing: use of adverbs, POV confusion, sentence fragments, a misplaced comma, etc. We start to nitpick. I know I do that, and it's taking more effort for me, now, to get lost in a book than before I became a writer. Many readers simply don't care.

So here are my rules, from a readers' perspective:

1. Does it serve its purpose in the context, style, genre, effect, etc.?
2. Does it keep me engaged in the story? Does it take me to another world (even if it's a world similar to mine)?
3. Are the characters real? I don't care if it's SF/F or horror or mainstream; give me realistic characters.

These are the three basic rules I abide by when I critique a story. Grammar, spellings, POVs, etc. can easily be fixed, but these three things are probably the hardest to accomplish.
 

seun

Horror Man
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
9,709
Reaction score
2,054
Age
48
Location
uk
Website
www.lukewalkerwriter.com
I'm sure I've seen someone here with a signature that basically says the rules of writing are all bollocks.
 

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
lol, that's true.

and you're right, conversations are one of the most common ways to hide your exposition. as a writer, i see it constantly, but a reader shouldn't notice or care that much if it's done well. honestly, i try to avoid it if i can because i think it's obvious and i want the challenge of doing it better or at least differently. that's just me, though, and i never claimed (except jokingly) that i was a good writer, lol.

for those thinking about it for the first time, avoid 'as you know, bob...' conversations meant to give information to the reader. this is when one character is telling another character something both characters already know, but it's being said to tell the reader what's going on.

my pet peeve is 'creation prologues,' where for a thousand words we learn the names of fifty-three gods and how the universe was created. these often have unoriginal sides like 'light' and the 'dark'. these are also 'critical to the story'... or so the author would have you believe.

for those who operate from a thematic standpoint, using metaphors might help with some exposition issues. i think that's a moderately advanced concept, though, and pretty much not really inbounds with the idea i'm trying to get across.

ironically, and this is probably due to me being in the sci-fi/fantasy genre, but even in the most extended info-dumps are there rarely any real details worth noting. they're usually no more interesting than reading a history textbook.

i also believe certain styles lend themselves towards exposition, such as when the narrator is almost a character in themselves (i forget what the term is for this) and first-person. i think most writers will find the story at odds with itself when you're writing in third-person limited and there are tons and tons of things the writer thinks we should know, but the character wouldn't.

there are enough ways to hide exposition rather than just letting it all out in one big plop unless you've got a damn good reason. not that it's *never* something you could do, but in a general context it's not a good thing.
 

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
oops, i didn't mean 'that's true' to you, mum, lol. i was responding to pd... too late, obviously.

that's a good way of putting it, 'best practices.' i doubt you'd find many editors who would argue vehomently against using any of the these appropriately, which is what i said in the OP to do. the idea here is to get these ideas out there so a beginner can advance his technique.

yeah, seun, some people hate the 'rules.' and they can stay out of my thread, thank you very much. :)
 

dmytryp

Banned
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
7,207
Reaction score
700
Location
Stranded in Omaha
Website
www.webpage4u.co.il
Repetitive structures of the sentences and unvarying snetence/paragraph length.

Another major problem is logic holes and consistency, but those are not the realm of only inexperienced writers. A writer have to remeber what color was the cloak of a character or if he was lying down or sitting up.
If you give your chgaracter some kind of power (that would be especially true when magic is involved) you have to make it clear why the char can't use it at some point etc.

tre: he rule with the starting with -ing word -- I think you may want to expand that into using continuos form in general as it means something is done at the same time as other things in that sentence. You have top always think about whether this is humanly possible, or at least what you meant
 

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
11,724
Reaction score
2,085
Website
peterdamien.com
I don't pay conscious attention to the rules when I read, or when I write...but I'm always aware of them. I write full time, I've been writing for upwards of ten years now. They're innate at this point.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
As long as we understand what these "rules/guidelines/best practices" mean...

Redundancy: it can be in the form of repeated phrases ("It is beautiful. It is so beautiful.") or unnecessary verbiage (She screamed and yelled and hit him. "I am so angry."). Granted, there's a very effective use of this figure of speech to emphasize something, by ways of repetition. But it has to be done for effect.

Expanding on the "-ing" issue: wrong use of the continuous tense. E.g. "They went out shopping. He was laughing and she was saying how wonderful the day was." Simple past tense would do. And to a lesser extent: "He started laughing..." A simple "He laughed" would suffice. The continuous tense should be used when something REALLY is a continuous action: "He was crying when the phone rang" or "He started crossing the bridge when it collapsed."

The "had" tense. This one is so convoluted many writers, even seasoned ones, may not get it right.

Wordiness/lack of proper word choices: part of the problem is vocabulary ("the back of the ship" instead of "stern" or "run very fast toward" instead of "dash toward"); part of the problem is also the lack of brevity -- when the writer believes more is better. Maybe that's why so many new writers write 300K-word masterpieces. :)

Complete sentences: there are writers who insist on writing complete sentences all the time, even in dialogue. First, people don't talk in complete sentences. Second, while overt use of sentence fragments is distracting, they are good for certain things -- pacing, punch, variation, etc. 100% complete sentences make the prose dull. Constant use of long, complex, complete sentences make the text even duller.
 

melaniehoo

And thus we begin the edits
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,730
Reaction score
8,939
Location
still in the dungeon
Website
www.melaniehoo.com
Preyer, thank you for starting this thread. I'm not ready to post yet, but I'd like to dip my toe in the critique pool soon. Very helpful advice & explanations.
 

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
once you involve yourself heavily in an active voice, i think there may be a tendacy towards ending more words with '-ed,' which makes the sentence sound stronger usually. i haven't really found many writers with an '-ing' problem (except sometimes at the beginning of sentences), where they don't mix word endings up without having to think about it. i pointed out the '-ing' as openers because i feel as editing for word count happens there are a lot of times when doing that eliminates several words, but then you run the risk of the character doing two things at once. just something to watch out for, and i don't think there's much gray area there, lol.
 

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
mel, you're exactly who i've started this thread for. you may have heard of some of the rules, or heard talk about them, but maybe not necessarily know exactly what they are, per se. these are the most common ones i find on average. but, if someone reads these and doesn't know what 'passive voice' is, it's well worth researching. i doubt knowledge of these 'rules' will make anyone a worse writer, lol. that's not to say you'll automatically be published as a result of using them, either. and most of these make for effective communication without so much regard to style/genre. a lot of these 'rules' are what editors claim they want to see (then publish the exact opposite). (note that i use these 'rules' in my writing (usually/at least i try) and i don't think i'm mistaken for being a bad writer.)
 

melaniehoo

And thus we begin the edits
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
5,730
Reaction score
8,939
Location
still in the dungeon
Website
www.melaniehoo.com
For me? Aw, shucks. *blushing* Since reading this thread I've realized what's wrong with my second chapter - info dump - and I've already thought of ways to spread it out. So BIG thank you!
 

preyer

excessively spartan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
676
Location
feels like nashville
yep, mel, this is for you and all the others who might wonder what we'll say in a critique... (insert barry white voice) but mostly for the laides. oh, yeah.

again, this is meant as somewhat generic advice not applicable to every story. info-dumping in small doses is something most of us will still pick out just FYI, but i think we all understand that sometimes it's necessary. we'll often point it out just so the writer is aware of it, not to say it's 'wrong' in every instance. i think we all want to be cognizant of our writing weaknesses and strengths, don't we? think of this stuff as 'the writer's code,' very similar to 'the pirate's code.'
 

GerriB

Dazed and Confuzzled
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
109
Reaction score
22
Location
High Plains U.S.
*grrr* welcome to pet peeve 101

Preyer, I'd have to hurt you if you used these "rules" to critique my stuff. Quite frankly, I loathe prose critiques, esp. for a first critique post for an author. I hate hate hate them. Why? Because why bother fixing the prose if the story is broke?

Yes, some people suck at prose. Those people need this kind of critique. But because too many beginning critiquers are stuck in "critique prose = good critiquing", I've never been able to get any adequate critiques in any critique groups I've been in. See, I don't have the problems you've listed. My grammar is very close to spot on, I know how to catch my info dumps, and the rest, I handle in editing. Not revision. Critiquers would nod and say it's wonderful, and then I couldn't get published with those very stories.

The real issue, though, is that no matter how good the prose is, if the story sucks, no fixing of the prose, no matter how sturdy, is going to fix the story, and critiquers who just focus on prose do a grave injustice to the writers.

FIX STORY FIRST.

Are there stakes?
Does every scene have conflict and tension at some level?
Do the characters come alive?
Do the characters interact with their world?
Do the characters have goals?
Do the characters screw up and have to fumble their way through to get to the end?
Do the characters have something to do?
Do the characters talk too much?
Is the critiquer bored anywhere?
Does the piece confuse the critiquer anywhere?
Does the piece have a point?
Do the characters meander around, never getting to the point?
Did the critiquer want to know more after each scene?
Is PoV clear?
How realistic are the character motivations?
Is the timeline clear?
Can they physically do the things described? (esp. important for erotica)

So on and so forth.

Until these things are solid, fixing prose is just moving the problems around. Story first (unless the prose is unreadable), then prose, and then grammar.

Good luck!
 

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
2,719
Reaction score
2,056
Location
GA
Playing the middle between preyer and gerri:

If a writer goes through the steps to fix the problems that preyer has pointed out beforehand, then the writer will get critiques on the issues gerri pointed out.

At least, that's been my experience.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.