Legality of Using Old Jokes in Stories

AnneMarble · Sep 17, 2007

What is the legality of using old jokes (and riddles, etc.) in stories? Do they ever end up in the public domain? Is it OK to have a character quip "Take my wife, please?" or even "In the words of Henny Youngman, take my wife, please?"

In a recent on-line discussion, a couple of us were joking about our failed attempts at writing novels. I made fun of a terrible scene where my characters fixed eggs the morning after. One person joked about the line "How do you want your eggs?" "Unfertilized please." And another poster warned us against using that joke because of plagiarism as it was similar to a line in "200 Cigarettes." (Can it even be plagiarism if you never saw the movie?

)

I didn't think it could be plagiarism in this case. (One of her other arguments made no sense -- claiming that the egg scene could be seen as plagiarism because there was an egg preparation scene in the movie "Runaway Bride."

) But I was wondering what the legality of using an old joke is. Lots of movies reuse the same old jokes and puns, and no one ever stops them. And what if I have written a character who repeats old Vaudeville jokes a lot? Heck, what if I'm writing about a stand-up comic in the Borscht Belt?
:Huh:

The_Grand_Duchess · Sep 17, 2007

I don't think its a legal issue at all. I think jokes are pretty much in the public domain. I mean I wouldn't use that particular line as it has been done a million times already but I think when it comes to jokes and well known catch phrases you're ok.

Just don't sing happy birthday

melaniehoo · Sep 17, 2007

Along that line, what about catch phrases from movie, if you acknowledge where they're from? I'm writing a memoir & my husband quotes Napolean Dynomite a lot (gawd!) and while it's only in there once or twice I wasn't sure if I can legally include it.

The_Grand_Duchess · Sep 17, 2007

melaniehoo said:
Along that line, what about catch phrases from movie, if you acknowledge where they're from? I'm writing a memoir & my husband quotes Napolean Dynomite a lot (gawd!) and while it's only in there once or twice I wasn't sure if I can legally include it.

'

I think for that one you should def give the reference. I think it's ok to use stuff like that as many YA books use pop culture references all the time.

Rich · Sep 17, 2007

I've had websites quote stuff of mine, mainly short stuff I've had in Reader's Digest. One person started one off with "As my grandfather used to say..."

There was a minister who at least started one of mine with, "As R.E Marino once said..."

Bless him.

melaniehoo · Sep 17, 2007

The_Grand_Duchess said:
'

I think for that one you should def give the reference. I think it's ok to use stuff like that as many YA books use pop culture references all the time.

I do say where it's from, also just in case not everyone in the free universe is familiar with the wise words of Napolean. We can speak like him for hours, but I'd hate to have it go over someone's head.

PeeDee · Sep 17, 2007

While it's cool to use whatever jokes you want -- legally, they're harmless, far as I know -- be careful not to use well-known ones! I mean, if your character 'makes up' a joke going "I went on Safari and shot an elephant in my pajamas...how it got in my pajamas, I'll never know!" then Pete Tzinski, of the Church of Groucho Marx, is going to come hollering to your door.

AnneMarble · Sep 17, 2007

PeeDee said:
While it's cool to use whatever jokes you want -- legally, they're harmless, far as I know -- be careful not to use well-known ones! I mean, if your character 'makes up' a joke going "I went on Safari and shot an elephant in my pajamas...how it got in my pajamas, I'll never know!" then Pete Tzinski, of the Church of Groucho Marx, is going to come hollering to your door.

That joke would only be appropriate if your character was doing a Groucho impersonation.

Actually, that gives me an idea for a character... Too bad I write fantasy novels set in a Medievalish world. :tongue

PeeDee · Sep 17, 2007

Groucho Marx in the Lord of the Rings?

Love it.

auntybug · Sep 17, 2007

Crap...Is Leslie Nielson gonna come after me if I used "....and don't call me Shirley?"

MidnightMuse · Sep 17, 2007

Well, Leslie's getting on in years. But *I* will track you down and slap you with a trout.

maestrowork · Sep 17, 2007

I think as long as you don't pretend you originated the joke... Then again, I'm not a lawyer <insert dead lawyer jokes here>.

Rich · Sep 17, 2007

But, I did shoot him, and he was in my pajamas.

I never did use it though. I did use one. You know--where the giraffe had on my turtle neck?

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 17, 2007

The_Grand_Duchess said:
Just don't sing happy birthday

Happy Birthday isn't in the public domain?

The_Grand_Duchess · Sep 17, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
Happy Birthday isn't in the public domain?

The song? No.

Ever notice how on tv they never get past the first two lines and if they do the tune is all crazy? Or how they don't actually sing happy birthday in chain restaurants? That's because someone owns the rights.

I don't know who though.

BenPanced · Sep 17, 2007

auntybug said:
Crap...Is Leslie Nielson gonna come after me if I used "....and don't call me Shirley?"

No, but the guy who wrote it would. He only delivered the line.

The_Grand_Duchess said:
The song? No.

Ever notice how on tv they never get past the first two lines and if they do the tune is all crazy? Or how they don't actually sing happy birthday in chain restaurants? That's because someone owns the rights.

I don't know who though.

Paul McCartney! No, not really.

WordGypsy · Sep 17, 2007

MidnightMuse said:
Well, Leslie's getting on in years. But *I* will track you down and slap you with a trout.

no no sweetie...it's a herring. Oooh and a shrubbery! :e2dance:

Foinah · Sep 18, 2007

melaniehoo said:
I do say where it's from, also just in case not everyone in the free universe is familiar with the wise words of Napolean. We can speak like him for hours, but I'd hate to have it go over someone's head.

Whatever I feel like, GOSH!

Oberon · Sep 18, 2007

The_Grand_Duchess said:
The song? No.

Ever notice how on tv they never get past the first two lines and if they do the tune is all crazy? Or how they don't actually sing happy birthday in chain restaurants? That's because someone owns the rights.

I don't know who though.

One of my bosses at Britannica said his wife had the job of checking radio and TV shows and movies to notify the copyright owner every time the song was sung. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You

melaniehoo · Sep 18, 2007

Foinah said:
Whatever I feel like, GOSH!

Why don't you make yourself a damn quesadilla!

Jamesaritchie · Sep 18, 2007

Jokes

Jokes, like any other written material, are copyrighted, and have the same protection as a short story or a novel. They also fall into public domain only after the same length of time short stories and novels do.

I think the problem comes from the fact that people repeat jokes they hear, and this is fine. You can also recite a story you've read.

But what you can't do is use that story in your own writing, even if you give credit. Nor should you use a joke in your own writing because there is a copyright holder somewhere for the vast majority of jokes.

Honestly, the odds of getting caught or in trouble are very, very slim, but it can happen.

PeeDee · Sep 18, 2007

That means no Metallica jokes.

AnneMarble · Sep 18, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
...But what you can't do is use that story in your own writing, even if you give credit. Nor should you use a joke in your own writing because there is a copyright holder somewhere for the vast majority of jokes.

What about fair use issues? I guess that couldn't apply to an individual joke because the whole joke is a very short work. What's the appropriate percentage of a joke? The word "the"?

But what about characters using a line from a movie? I've seen people in movies and TV shows do that all the time. When is it OK? Sometimes quoting material is stealing, and sometimes it's building on what has come before. What's the line between stealing lines from Groucho (or W. C. Fields) and having a character who does a bad Grouch impersonation? Do you have to create a character who uses a line that the character never actually used? ("Play it again, Sam," he said, not realizing Bogey had never said that.

)

In a message board post, a woman once accused Peter Beagle of plagiarism because a famous quotes website attributed a line from a particular translation of Cyrano de Bergerac to him as Beagle had used it in The Last Unicorn. But I found the line in context and realized it had been used by the Butterfly -- and the Butterfly quoted brief lines from at least six other sources (old songs, etc.) in that same paragraph. That's what the Butterfly did. The other poster suggested that Beagle should have attributed the lines. But he couldn't very well do it in the dialogue, without interrupting the flow, and I'm not sure if he did so in the front matter. (There might have been too many quotes, mostly falling under fair use or in the public domain, and quoting attributing dozens of quotes would have made a mess of things -- and implied that his readers weren't smart enough to realize that the Butterfly was using quotes.

)

Jamesaritchie · Sep 18, 2007

AnneMarble said:
What about fair use issues? I guess that couldn't apply to an individual joke because the whole joke is a very short work. What's the appropriate percentage of a joke? The word "the"? But what about characters using a line from a movie? I've seen people in movies and TV shows do that all the time. When is it OK? Sometimes quoting material is stealing, and sometimes it's building on what has come before. What's the line between stealing lines from Groucho (or W. C. Fields) and having a character who does a bad Grouch impersonation? Do you have to create a character who uses a line that the character never actually used? ("Play it again, Sam," he said, not realizing Bogey had never said that. )

In a message board post, a woman once accused Peter Beagle of plagiarism because a famous quotes website attributed a line from a particular translation of Cyrano de Bergerac to him as Beagle had used it in The Last Unicorn. But I found the line in context and realized it had been used by the Butterfly -- and the Butterfly quoted brief lines from at least six other sources (old songs, etc.) in that same paragraph. That's what the Butterfly did. The other poster suggested that Beagle should have attributed the lines. But he couldn't very well do it in the dialogue, without interrupting the flow, and I'm not sure if he did so in the front matter. (There might have been too many quotes, mostly falling under fair use or in the public domain, and quoting attributing dozens of quotes would have made a mess of things -- and implied that his readers weren't smart enough to realize that the Butterfly was using quotes. )

I think "fair use" is even more misunderstood than jokes. If you look up fair use law, you see that it never even mentions using copyrighted material in fiction under fair use.

The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

Fair use is for specific times and places, such as reviews, educational uses, and parodies.

It's never a good idea to use someone else's copyrighted material in your own fiction, unless you are writing a parody. Fair use does not mean anyone can use part of anything for any purpose whatever.

Legality of Using Old Jokes in Stories

Nefarious Ghost Fan

I record everything.

And thus we begin the edits

I record everything.

And thus we begin the edits

Where's my tea, please...?

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Where's my tea, please...?

teh other evil broad

Midnight Reading

Fear the Death Ray

Court Jester

I record everything.

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

Smoking Monkey Smart Arse

And thus we begin the edits

Where's my tea, please...?

Nefarious Ghost Fan