Commas and.....

mum23 · Sep 13, 2007

Is it a simple case of reading out loud and inserting when needing a breath?
I know my grammar is crap. It's been a long time sinse I left school.

seun · Sep 13, 2007

There are some good examples here, mum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(punctuation)#Grammar

seun · Sep 13, 2007

Have a look here, too.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77073

Jamesaritchie · Sep 13, 2007

Commas

mum23 said:
Is it a simple case of reading out loud and inserting when needing a breath?
I know my grammar is crap. It's been a long time sinse I left school.

No. You hear the advice "insert a comma where you naturally pause," but it's horrible, horrible, horrible advice. It doesn't work. Commas have specific uses, specific reasons for being placed where they are.

So what if you've been out of school for a long time? You can still buy and read a grammar book. Just get a simple one. A seventh grade English book from your local school should have all the grammar a fiction writer needs, and explains it in a simple, easy to understand manner.

And if you don't have a copy of Strunk & White, get one immediately. It lists all the rules for comma usage, and makes using commas pretty simple. Strunk & White is often called "The Writer's Bible," and it is.

PeeDee · Sep 13, 2007

I've learned more about grammar, writing, history, science, math...biology certainly -- in fact, most of the subjects I've learned about have been after I've been out of school. Don't let that slow you down.

Will Lavender · Sep 13, 2007

I've always believed that, for adults, learning the rules was very difficult -- and I taught Writing for years. It's hard for adults to look at rules, understand them, and implement them in their writing unless they become obsessive about the process.

What's easier is to ape or mimic. Everything I learned I learned from reading. I always told my students if they read for an hour a night every evening for a year, their comma problems will be virtually fixed at the end of that time.

I pretty much believe that.

Stew21 · Sep 13, 2007

don't put commas at breath pauses please.
I'm editing a large, technical document at work. The man who wrote it did that. I've spent two days changing sentence structures and getting rid of commas.

A quick review of commas in a writing textbook will set you right.

good luck!

maestrowork · Sep 13, 2007

wikipedia is your friend.

There are rules for commas, and they're not arbitrary.

dolores haze · Sep 13, 2007

Hi, my name is Dolores, and I'm a comma splicer.

I have a question. Is there a difference between British English, and American English usage, of the comma? Hope this doesn't count as hijacking the thread, Mum23.

maestrowork · Sep 13, 2007

Not that I know of, Dolores. I studied British English in school before I came the US. I didn't notice any difference in comma rules.

seun · Sep 13, 2007

dolores haze said:
Hi, my name is Dolores, and I'm a comma splicer.

I have a question. Is there a difference between British English, and American English usage, of the comma? Hope this doesn't count as hijacking the thread, Mum23.

From the wiki article:

The comma and the quotation mark pairing can be used in several ways. In American English, the comma is to be included inside a quote, no matter what the circumstances.[6] For example:

My mother gave me the nickname "Johnny Boy," which really made me angry.

However, in British English, punctuation is only placed within quotation marks if it is part of what is being quoted or referred to. Thus:

My mother gave me the nickname "Johnny Boy", which really made me angry.

DocBrown · Sep 13, 2007

Those crazy Brits! :Soapbox:

Of course, I guess their way kind of makes more sense... :Shrug:

maestrowork · Sep 13, 2007

DocBrown said:
Of course, I guess their way kind of makes more sense...

Actually it does. I was very confused when I first had to write it the American way -- why is the comma inside the quote again, please?

Bufty · Sep 13, 2007

Mum, have a second look at James's post after you've read Strunk & White. Check where the commas appear.

Jamesaritchie said:
No. You hear the advice "insert a comma where you naturally pause," but it's horrible, horrible, horrible advice. It doesn't work. Commas have specific uses, specific reasons for being placed where they are.

So what if you've been out of school for a long time? You can still buy and read a grammar book. Just get a simple one. A seventh grade English book from your local school should have all the grammar a fiction writer needs, and explains it in a simple, easy to understand manner.

And if you don't have a copy of Strunk & White, get one immediately. It lists all the rules for comma usage, and makes using commas pretty simple. Strunk & White is often called "The Writer's Bible," and it is.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 13, 2007

Bufty said:
Mum, have a second look at James's post after you've read Strunk & White. Check where the commas appear.

Something wrong with my comma usage?

Jamesaritchie · Sep 13, 2007

seun said:
From the wiki article:

The comma and the quotation mark pairing can be used in several ways. In American English, the comma is to be included inside a quote, no matter what the circumstances.[6] For example:

My mother gave me the nickname "Johnny Boy," which really made me angry.

However, in British English, punctuation is only placed within quotation marks if it is part of what is being quoted or referred to. Thus:

My mother gave me the nickname "Johnny Boy", which really made me angry.

The first isn't always true, though it once was. Even in American usage, there are times to place commas inside of quotation marks, and times to place them outside.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 13, 2007

Will Lavender said:
I've always believed that, for adults, learning the rules was very difficult -- and I taught Writing for years. It's hard for adults to look at rules, understand them, and implement them in their writing unless they become obsessive about the process.

What's easier is to ape or mimic. Everything I learned I learned from reading. I always told my students if they read for an hour a night every evening for a year, their comma problems will be virtually fixed at the end of that time.

I pretty much believe that.

I'd like to believe this, but if new writers are reading as much as they claim to be reading, wouldn't their comma usage be great by now?

I don't think teaching writing is the same thing as teaching grammar, but I suspect the reason most adult have trouble learning commas rules is primary because they don't know what the rules mean. Basic knowledge of grammar is missing, and without these, any writer is in trouble.

It's been my experience that when a writers uses commas correctly, all the other rules will also be used properly, but when commas aren't used properly on most occasions, the other rules won't be followed very well, either.

Deirdre · Sep 13, 2007

Will Lavender said:
What's easier is to ape or mimic. Everything I learned I learned from reading. I always told my students if they read for an hour a night every evening for a year, their comma problems will be virtually fixed at the end of that time.

I pretty much believe that.

Well, I'm here to say that, alas, that doesn't work for everyone.

I'm one of those people who's learned almost nothing about writing from reading. I wish I did learn by osmosis, but I don't. I get caught up in the prose.

seun · Sep 13, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Something wrong with my comma usage?

The first time a potential fight has been started by punctuation.

Flapdoodle · Sep 14, 2007

DocBrown said:
Those crazy Brits!

Of course, I guess their way kind of makes more sense...

Well it is our language... :tongue

People the in UK were squabbling over comma usage before the other colonies even existed!

In fact, in the 14th century song "The Ballad of Long Dunkin", the story tells of a Lord who got into a dual with his best friend over the usage of commas. Bows and arrows at dawn!

[Although at that time, Lords were Normans and probably spoke French. Only the plebs spoke English]

Jamesaritchie · Sep 14, 2007

seun said:
The first time a potential fight has been started by punctuation.

Legend has it that one lucky man was spared execution by a misplaced comma, while another was executed because of a misplaced comma. Just goes to show the importance of proper punctuation.

Bufty · Sep 14, 2007

No, James. Quite the reverse - I thought it would be a helpful exercise.

Jamesaritchie said:
Something wrong with my comma usage?

Jamesaritchie · Sep 14, 2007

Commas

Bufty said:
No, James. Quite the reverse - I thought it would be a helpful exercise.

I figured you noticed my "English mistakes". Unless I think about it constantly, I still have a terrible time using some commas the good old American way, just as I have problems remembering to leave the "u" out of certain words, such as "colour" and "behaviour."

Even though I'm American by birth and raising, several of my teens years were spent immersed in reading, writing, and studying "English English."

JLCwrites · Sep 14, 2007

Comma Comma Comma Comma Comma Chameleon
You come and go, you come and go.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 14, 2007

Great

Turkey Lurkey said:
Comma Comma Comma Comma Comma Chameleon
You come and go, you come and go.

Great, now I'm going to have that song stuck in my head for the next three days!

Commas and.....

mum23

seun

Horror Man

seun

Horror Man

Jamesaritchie

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

Stew21

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

dolores haze

international guttersnipe

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

seun

Horror Man

DocBrown

Hopes to one day write for food.

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

Deirdre

practical experience, FTW

seun

Horror Man

Flapdoodle

Jamesaritchie

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Jamesaritchie

JLCwrites

Jamesaritchie