Modern Poetry

Hi Dirk,

I think you'll find that the principles that make good craftsmanship and good Poetry are the same as they've always been despite the attempts of Modern Poets and the MFA community to change that.

Such always were and still are built on Communication of all types of experience based on PURPOSE, (whether is merely to describe something or analyze it or to express an emotional or intellectual response to experience). It must be FOCUSED on a single subject, preferably of a universal nature, which must be bounded by UNITIES of Expression, Thought, and Image and must have a DENOUEMENT or OUTCOME that UNITES the whole.

Don Patterson, who has won two T.S. Eliot prizes for his volumes, as well as several lesser awards, and Richard Wakefield, who won the 2006 "Richard Wilbur Award" and writes in the spirit of Robert Frost, are good examples both of those principles and what might possibly constitute the next wave of Poetic Expression, as are William Kupinse, whose Poetry is similar to Mr. Wakefield's and Thomas Vaughn, who have published several volumes of "Traditional" Poetry via POD, and are very good at what they do.

None of the above are household names at the moment, but they, along with many who post here, represent signposts that the "Cycle" is changing, and "Traditional" Poetry is beginning to regain prominance, (although I'm sure that there are many who will disagree with me).

In any case, I think you might consider moving this thread to the "Discussion" section where it would be more appropriate.

Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

ddgryphon said:

When I left college behind, right after the civil war (or the war of Northern Aggression as some around these parts still refer to it) Poetry was in an odd place.

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Oh that's nothing. Right around the (Roman) civil war - the one where Caesar crossed the Rubicon River - the poet Horace was born.

Most of the translations of Horace that you - people born after the War of Northern Aggression (or the War To Free The Slaves, as we call it) - read, were done in the 18th and 19th centuries (including a well-known one by John Quincy Adams!) . They reflected the poetic tastes of that time, including a penchant for 18th and 19th century meter and rhyme that did not necessrily exist in the original Latin. The original Latin was metric in its fashion, but not in the same way as the translations, and it often had no rhyming scheme. So if you ever have the privelege to hear Horace or his contemporaries read in the original, they sound ...

Modern!

and they're a real treat, and with a good reader you don't even need to know Latin to enjoy them!

Nothing stays old forever. Poetry is just as much a creature of fashion as hemlines and hairstyles. The danger of trying to be too aware of current tastes is that the more your work reflects some current zeitgeist the sooner it will look dated. Better to try to write universal poetry that can stand the test of time.

JRH said:

. . .
None of the above are household names at the moment

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"... at the moment". Spoken like a true optimist!

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time in the US when a living poet was a household name? Arguably Maya Angelou is our best-known poet but what percent of the general population know who she is? What percentage of the population can recite even one line from any of her poems?

The literary crowd certainly knows who Billy Collins is, but when I've mentioned him in casual conversation among normal people (and almost everyone in my social circle is college educated) he doesn't elicit any recognition. I live near Lowell Massachusetts and they've been doing a big Jack Kerouac festival lately. So everyone around here knows he was a "beat poet", but few people I've met have actually read anything of his, or know who the beat poets were.

My mother - a high-school graduate born in 1914 - could recite Robert Frost back when he was alive, and she knew many poems by 19th century poets.

I don't think any poet will ever be a household name in the US again, unless it's for something other than poetry. If a basement boiler explodes at a Billy Collins book signing, and the resulting fire traps everyone on the roof of the bookstore, so Collins goes back into the burning building, finds a book on how to build a helicopter, quickly assembles one on the roof, and flies everyone to safety then he'll be a houshold name. And most people still won't read his poetry.

I was on the streets when I should have been spending time in academia...so I don't know what was studied when. I pick up books. I read. I think it doesn't matter when a poet wrote...if it stands the test of time it will always be read. Most of the poets I read and reread have been long since dead. Then again, there are some terrific poets writing right now. It's just a matter of opinion for me. Relevant, for me, is what I'm reading when I read it. I'm willing to give anybody a try...

plnelson said:

...when was the last time in the US when a living poet was a household name?

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Robert Frost certainly was in the late '50s and early '60s.

Allen Ginsberg?

Bless Ginsberg! But not his 'shit' poems. What does that man have with shit?!


I learned so much from Ginsberg, I don't know where to begin. His travel and his mind is in the touch of every poem he writes. He is very connected, even when he is obviously being flip. He LOVED being flip.

poetinahat said:

Allen Ginsberg?

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I agree about Frost - I think he was the last one.

I doubt the average person outside of the literary and beat communities had ever heard of Ginsberg. Put another way, the average Maynard G Krebs could probably recite parts of Howl, but the average Dobi Gillis had no idea.

Interestingly, the phrase, "I've seen the best minds of my generation ..." seems to have entered the lexicon in some circles without many people knowing its source.

um...where I come from, Ginsberg is a household name.

KTC said:

um...where I come from, Ginsberg is a household name.

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All that means is that you live in a literary house.

I'll bet if someone commissioned a poll of a large sample of average Americans, not one person in 5 could identify him and not one person in 50 could name anything he wrote. (and probably not one person in 1000 could cite anything other than Howl.)

A "household name" would refer to someone like Britney Spears or Tom Brady or whoever the last winner on American Idle was.

LOL... The only ginsberg that's household for me is Ruth Bader.

plnelson said:

All that means is that you live in a literary house.

I'll bet if someone commissioned a poll of a large sample of average Americans, not one person in 5 could identify him and not one person in 50 could name anything he wrote. (and probably not one person in 1000 could cite anything other than Howl.)

A "household name" would refer to someone like Britney Spears or Tom Brady or whoever the last winner on American Idle was.

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Honestly...not being argumentative...but I would like to see that poll. I have grown up believing everybody knew Ginsberg AND his works. I would have to be convinced otherwise. But I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.

And, yes...I do understand the concept of household name. I truly believe him to be one...along the same terms as Britney Spears, etc.

Ginsberg was most definitely not a household name in my house. Dad was not literary; Mom was, but she died young. I first heard of Ginsberg in 8th grade English, but only because my best friend wound up doing his report on one of his poems. The poem reviewed, the name of which escapes me but it included the line "Are we rid of rotting Ginsberg", disgusted me, and I had no interest in reading him. I never heard of Ginsberg again until 35 years later when I began studying poetry after my long, self-imposed exile.

The only other American poet I can think of in my lifetime who might have been a household name in his lifetime is Carl Sandberg. Although, recently reading his poetry makes me wonder why this was so.

NDG

Growing up, my family was not college educated. My parents only recently got their degrees, just before turning 50, making the first college grads on either side of the family.

I was familiar with Frost, Dickenson, and Maya Lou Angelo (is that right? The "I rise!" poet). Shelly, Keats, Coleridge -- these poets I knew.

Well... in Fresno there was Phillip Levine. He's a famous California poet, who lives in Fresno, teaches at Fresno State. We all knew him... but I guess kinda took him for granted.

So I guess that's the only modern poet I knew, until I started taking college-level english classes.

I will just keep happy in my illusions. Ginsberg is as familar as salt. (possibly delusions...but I am happy nonetheless.)

What is this "salt" you keep referring to?

Don't make me crazy glue you to Oprah's ass!

KTC said:

Don't make me crazy glue you to Oprah's ass!

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Are you kidding?

This is a writers' forum! Most writers would love to get some exposure (so to speak) on her show and that would practically guarantee it!

. . . although the camera angles might be a challenge ...

Yikes!

I just noticed I've been promoted to Super Member.

"Look! Up in the sky! It's . . . "
(make up your own dirty joke! )




That's the problem with cell phones, you know. No phone booths . . .