Pondering Love scenes in historicals

How people make love says as much about their character, and certainly about their relationship, as how they do anything. But I am not quite sure in what basis you feel the need to add scenes you are uncomfortable with. If you think there is something in romances you want to emulate it would seem to make sense to read a few. If not... not? The scenes need to be there for a clear reason for the characters and the writer.

I don't write anything I wouldn't like to read. I think it would come off stilted and unbelievable.
Linnea

I think, Diviner, what you're alluding to is what I call leaving a fair amount to the reader's imagination. That was the old way of doing it - no one had to have a picture painted for them. Honestly, I'm all for a return to quite a few more closed doors. The deep love of a couple can be shown quite adequately in other ways than thrashing bodies. Puma

Welcome to the club. You may want to read my thread here http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64080 although it is more about how experienced a main character should be, rather than in how much detail the experiences should be described. Bottom line is the same: the author has to be comfortable and pleased with what they are writing!

Diviner said:

One group of historical novels are "historical romances," or "bodice rippers."

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Talking about genre ...

'Historical Romance' is part of the genre 'Romance' and shelved with other Romance.

'Historical' is a separate genre, shelved by itself, or sometimes with general fiction.

Fantasy or action-adventure or 'inspirational writing' or experimental literature or plays or docudrama or science fiction or poetry
can all have historical settings,
but they are not 'historical novels'.
They belong to their own genres.

Diviner said:

whatever the story they tell, the love realationships are at the center of the story. I'm not sure I ever read any of these,

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OK.

Now one problem with calling Historical Romances 'bodice rippers'
is that it's apt to offend most folks in the business.
They feel that designation is slighting
(No fools, the folks who write and read Romance.)

Talking cover art here ...

Let me just say --
if you are ever in a group of writers and want to get a lively conversation going, say the words 'cover art'.
When they have stopped smashing their schnapps glasses on the wall they will cool down sufficiently to inform you that their urban fantasy/murder mystery/s.f. epic/thriller/literary masterpiece has nothing to do with what marketing slapped on the cover.

Bodice ripper covers -- Diana Galbadon calls them 'nursing mother' covers -- were always somewhat a puzzle to the Romance community.
Why?
we asked ourselves,
the boobs?
Most women don't get off by looking at boobs, after all.

It's been pointed out that the end customer for Romance is overwhelmingly female,
but the buyers for the major bookstore chains
are male.

My assumption has been that the young ladies spilled out of their corsets (and luscious blondes sprawled on the covers of murder mysteries and well-boobed babes struggled in the tentacles of BEMs)
for the delectation of Ted and Sam, buyers for MegaBooksRUs.

Anyhow -- nursing mother covers are so very out of date -- a decade and more -- that I'm amazed you can find great numbers of them on the stands at airports.

Diviner said:

But the stories I like, though romances in the ancient sense, are not about the vicissitudes of lovers and sexual encounters between them but about eras or events in history-

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Then you should indeed write historicals.

Diviner said:

I have to force myself to include them, for I question their relevance to the story I want to tell .... I don't enjoy reading vividly realized sexual encounters, nor do they usually advance the story, in my opinion.

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Ummm .... then don't include them.
(jo brushes her hands, having polished off that question)

Diviner said:

I wonder if my reluctance is a form of snobbery, the result of a rather puritannical sensibilty, or just good judgment. How can a person write what they don't enjoy reading? More important, how can I include it when I think they don't really belong..

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Leesee ...

(a) Probably not, though you're the best judge of the state of your sensibility.

(b) They perform the research in a dedicated and intelligent manner, then write with care and honesty.
Lots of people write stuff they don't enjoy reading -- unless you imagine there are folks out there who spend their evenings curled up with a stack of dryer instructions.

(c) I cannot imagine why one would do this.

Diviner said:

So far, my very few love scenes are "G" rating. I show the slow building of passion followed by closed doors, so to speak. How could opening those doors further my story?

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Much depends on what you are attempting to accomplish with your love scenes.

I will mention in passing that there is a knowledgeable, intelligent, and sophisticated group of writers who have studied in detail how sexuality can be used to enhance pacing, plot and characterization.

These writers work in a genre that sells more books than all the other genres combined.
You do not read these books, of course.

Diviner said:

I think historical fiction is living down a reputation. ... But need those of us who are not Romance writers take pages from their very popular books to spice up our own tasty concoctions?

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Most folks who read genre historicals can distinguish between 'historicals'
and other genres -- s.f. set in historical periods, historical romance, action-adventure costume drama ... and so on.

Historicals don't (to the best of my knowledge) have a reputation for excessive and wanton sexuality.

Historical Romances, on the other hand, rather glory in their reputation for sensuality.
Anyway, they're not trying to live it down.

I absolutely agree that love scenes do not have to include the actual "joining". I happen to think the build up is more sexy anyway, most of the time. But a good story doesn't even need sexy in the traditional sense. Love scenes can run the gamut from a tender conversation to something more graphic. What a love scene must include IMO, is some progression of character, relationship or plot. I do think it should advance the story. If a relationship is important to the story, then a love scene can show a number of things anywhere from a window into a character's deceit or cruelty to a building of trust, healing or an exploration of each other. All of these examples can bring characters to a new level in the relationship. These can all be quite important to a particular story. If it's not, then I wouldn't include it. If it doesn't feel right to me as the author, then I would not force myself to include it.

I like BardSkye's love scene because it demonstrates Pheroras' love for his wife and his courage about it. No lovemaking is involved. I hope BardSkye didn't get the wrong impression from my critique. I wasn't asking for more "hawtness". I was asking for more of a gradual and demonstrated transition from Melchior being afraid to forgetting about Herod's threat by feeling secure in her husband's love and protection. This could be accomplished in any number of ways, including dialogue or him comforting her. It did/does not have to be sexual. But the scene demonstrates her building of trust in their love and in her husband and what they mean to each other. That advances their relationship, and if their relationship is important to the story, then it advances the story.

Puma said:

The deep love of a couple can be shown quite adequately in other ways than thrashing bodies. Puma

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I didn't see a few posts because I kept getting interrupted when typing mine and it took me forever! But yes, Puma - yes, yes, yes and YES.

c.e.

Ooh, interesting discussion. I'm sympathetic to you, Diviner. I really wouldn't feel comfortable writing a sex scene, though I don't mind reading them. And I certainly don't think you should feel obliged to include them. Most great literature has no 'bedroom' scenes at all and doesn't suffer because of it.

But I do think that such scenes can be used, in the right hands, to say a lot about characters and their relationship. Diana Gabaldon, imo, is a master at this. I'm amazed at the number of different reasons and emotions that she shows in the love scenes in her stories: comfort, anger, hurt, frustration, tenderness, passion, fear, relief... And sometimes she shows us the 'thrashing bodies' as Puma so delicately puts it, but often not. She either focuses on what's going on in her character's head or she gives the build up and/or the aftermath without describing the act at all.

It seems to me that even if you don't want to write sex scenes, it's probably important to find some way of conveying the physicality of a relationship. Maybe he likes to touch her hair, or she finds reassurance in holding his hand or stroking his arm. Or something that's appropriate to your characters. In the scene you wrote, Diviner you had Matt focus on the colour of her eyes and the sound of her voice. But at some point he's going to feel the softness of her skin or her hair. And he's going to react to that physically as well as emotionally and you'll need to convey that to your readers.

And c.e.'s quite right. This sort of build up can be much, much sexier than any attempt to describe the physical act of sex.

My, what a timely discussion!

For me, it all comes back to the characters and the story. I don't particularly care for gratuitous sex, but if it fits into the story, if it helps us to explore the characters further, I say go for it.

That said, we're not writing erotica, here, and I think if you're having to come up with multiple synonyms for the various naughty bits or describe various positions, it might be a good idea to tone it down. c.e. and girlyswot are right on about the build up being far sexier than the act itself.

Someone...

and I wish I could remember which historical writer it was... said 'Concentrate on the Love, not the Sex.'
Most people like to read about Love. They don't want graphic sex.

Diviner said:

One group of historical novels are "historical romances," or "bodice rippers."

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FWIW, "bodice rippers" went out of fashion some 15 years ago in Genre Romance, though they are well-remembered (and occasionally lamented) by pretty much everyone outside the genre. Its heyday was the 1980's. Not that kind of brutish, angsty hero might be found in some of the modern Paranormal Romances, but not always.

As a long-time reader of Historical Fiction and Historical Romance, I've never considered them anything of the same. The main focus in Historical Romance, as you noted, is the tropes of Genre Romance--the relationship in all its facets--with the historical bits occasionally being accent pieces and not having to impact the actual story at all. Historical Fiction, OTOH, is very much centered in the historical part of the story. Take out the history and there is no story in the Historical Fiction. You'd have to take out the Romance from Historical Romance to have no story. Two entirely different genres.

My experience in various groups, frankly, is that the Readers (by that I mean people who just read, not Writers who read) of those two genres don't massively overlap. The Romance Reader doesn't want that much history and the Historical readers are bored by all the relationship stuff. Which is fine--that's why there's two different places to shelve them today.

Diviner said:

Our new challenge prompts me to ask this question, because I think historical fiction is living down a reputation. If readers want hot sex, plenty of writers provide it. But need those of us who are not Romance writers take pages from their very popular books to spice up our own tasty concoctions? How important is this? What does it add? What does it detract? Will we lose creditability by adding the trappings of other genres?

JoB, what do you think?

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Well, sex can sell--if it's done well and has an honest place in the story. But you don't have to have sex to sell well. Neither The DiVinci Code nor any of the Harry Potter books have sex scenes in them and they are inagruably the best selling books of our time. But to add a sex scene into any of those books would be sorely out of place for the stories being told. It would be like welding on an elephant's trunk onto a thoroughbred horse. Doesn't fit, doesn't work, ruins the beast.

The best advice I ever got from a long-ago crit bud (whose name I wish I could remember) was: Know your Story first and foremost. Then know your readership. Mesh the two as best you can, but always be true to the Story first.

I've written Genre Romance (subgenre Historical and Paranormal) for over a decade now. I've written Fantasy for longer than that and have been a Historical reader since I was a child. Each genre has different tropes and reader expectations which don't necessarily overlap. When writing a sex scene for a Historical Fantasy, Ican't write the same kind of sex scene I'd write for Romance. It doesn't fit the same standards or construction because the Historical reader I'm writing for wants a different focus than a Romance reader.

Diviner said:

I have given little thoughts to a more professional approach. Thanks for the genre clarifications. .

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I would call it a 'commercia'l approach, rather than a 'professional' approach. There are many wonderful, exciting manuscripts out there, written with unbelievable professionalism, which are unsalable.

An awareness of commercial possibilities does not, in and of itself, imperil one's ability to write honestly. It would do no harm, I think, next time you are in a major bookstore. to wander the aisles and get a feel for the layout of the place.

Over here, on the left, filling half the store, is a huge non-fiction section ... everything from the History of Bathtubs to Money Laundering for Dummies. This floorspace pretty much reflects sales. Half of all books sold are non-fiction. Excellent and well-paying market, very open. It's the most likely way to earn a living, writing.

Straight ahead ... the whole back of the store is kids' books. They've given the kids' books more floorspace than their proportion in the marketplace. This is because folks who come in to buy kids' books are very apt to buy a book or two for themselves. There's crossover. And from a practical standpoint, kids need lots of room.
Hard market to break into -- the kids' books that get sold in the brick-and-mortar. Needs both persistence and luck.

Rightside in the front, beyond the magazines, is a whole wall of 'Inspirational non-fiction' (sic). Christian, Judaica, New Age. Elves and Fairies, Pop Psychology. Good floorspace. Folks who come in to buy this are somewhat less apt to be tempted by other books -- there's not much crossover -- but they will impulse-buy road atlases, crystal charms, 'to the graduate' fairy dolls, games and other non-book items, so these are displayed there.


What is left is only about a quarter of the floorspace of the store.
This is fiction.
This is where you hope to fit your book.

This straight-fiction part of the store is probably tucked together in one compact corner. The customer here does a lot of crossover from one genre to another -- picking up two mysteries and a science fiction when she comes in to buy a Romance.
When somebody walks into this part of the store, she probably has her goal in mind. There's a book or an author or a genre she's headed straight for.
The aisles are smaller than elsewhere in the store. The concentration of books per shelf-inch is greater.
All the flapdoodle and whingwhang is missing.
There's nothing here but books.

This is the 'bookstore' within the bookstore. The writing without the whingdang
OK. Looking at just this corner ...

About a quarter of this section is Romance. These will mostly be what we call 'single-title-, (90K to 120K) rather than 'category' (65 to 90K.) The floorspace doesn't represent the overall commercial reality of the genre. Romance is by far the best seller in fiction, but 'category Romance' sells through other distribution channels, mostly. Not straight bookstores.

Another quarter back in the 'here's-the-fiction' is science fiction/fantasy and manga. These two will be next to each other but not mixed,

There'll be a smaller Young Adults section, probably chockablock between the kiddie's books and the manga.

About the same size as the YA is mysteries. This may have a separate rack nearby for action/adventure or thriller/suspense/horror or true crime.

What's left -- this is about a third of this back corner of the store -- is general fiction. They may separate off a rack of classics and another rack of historical fiction, or those two may be added to the mix. General fiction contains also woman's fiction, (which is a genre distinct from Romance,) best sellers, modern literary work and not-otherwise-classified general fiction.

From what you say, your ms would likely be shelved with the 'historical fiction' or with 'Young Adult'.


Now there is no necessity for you to go to a bookstore and wander up and down the shelves, deciding where your book would fit and what books are already there and how yours compares to them in length, writing style and subject, and what publishers publish books like yours.

It could be argued that selling your book is not your job, any more than it is the job of the beet farmer to look at the produce aisle and think about attractive displays of vegetables.

But,
from the minute you finish your manuscript,
Every Single Person You Talk To Professionally
will be wholly concentrated upon fitting your book into a particular two inches of shelfspace.
You will communicate more efficiently and understand the process better if you have a nodding relationship with those two inches of shelfspace.

Diviner said:

although they do deal with historically significant events are about people and their relationships, not, however, about male-female love because my MC is pretty young and he rarely meets girls. They deal with issues of loyalty, religious differences, and class as well as a few clashes of personality..

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Which could mean YA as in Johnny Tremain or could mean historical fiction as in Nicolo Rising.

One advantage of looking at the YA and historical fiction on the bookshelves is it will relieve your mind of any notion that such books are 'historically significant events' rather than 'people and their relationships'.
It will also tell you how much graphic focking is expected in the average historical. You may find yourself reassured.

Very good discussion, thank you.

I make no bones about not liking graphic sex and overuse of profanity, regardless of the market. I'm old-fashioned in that respect, but I also have 25 years of happy marriage behind me. I know without a shadow of a doubt that sex is a very small part of both romance and relationship. (My hubby's an incurable romantic.)

The physical nature of sex hasn't changed much from caveman days and most of your readers know all about it. It's not much different for dogs than it is for people. What has changed, is constantly changing, is how society views the act of procreation. We make laws about it; it influences almost every aspect of our life whether directly or indirectly. The straight historical reader wants information on the society, not the sex. Though the two are intermingled, the focus is different.

I quite like most of the historical "bodice-rippers." Even when they're focusing on thrashing bodies, it's low-key and tastefully done and most include enough period details to intrigue as well. I would liken it to the difference between looking at Rennaisance paintings of nudes and looking at Penthouse Magazine. Mystery is always more alluring than actuality.

Hat's off!

job said:

I would call it a 'commercia'l approach, rather than a 'professional' approach. There are many wonderful, exciting manuscripts out there, written with unbelievable professionalism, which are unsalable.

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JoB--What a wonderful description of some basic facts. I've rarely read it put so succiently.