I require assistance

[Shady Lane]

Here's a PM I just sent Danger Jane re. the problems I'm having plotting my WIP. I was wondering if you guys could help me out.

No idea is too stupid/simple/ridiculous. I hate what I have now and I totally need an ending. So here:

"So, basically my theme is about breaking away, and when it stops being about freedom and starts being harmful. Like, how many ties should you cut so you're an individual but not in isolation?

So Griffin and Zach and a few other boys are turning into robots thanks to Griffin's parents. Griffin's father is actually all of their biological fathers...so they're all half brothers. All the boys are growing wings, but they're coming in crooked, painfully--so they need what's called an alignment every few days. The only person who knows how to align them is Griffin's father. So every few days they need to go up to Griffin's house and get aligned. Problem--Griffin's Dad won't align them unless they complete their missions...which are basically jobs that he tells them to do. They're "setting people free" jobs...burning down grocery stores, freeing prisoners, all these weird morally ambiguous things.

Zach had to burn down a seven eleven...totally didn't want to. But eventually he had to, because the pain from not getting aligned was getting too bad. He just gave in, burned it down, and got aligned where I am in the book right now.

So here's what I was planning on happening: After a few more minutes, all the boys minus Griffin were going to plot to kill Griffin's parents--Zach being the leader. When they do, they realize that Griffin's Dad was a robot as well--created, just like they were, by Griffin's mother. But they kill her, fine, and then wait to see what happens. Griffin is furious--not because his parents are dead, but because he wasn't included and he really just wanted to be part of something. This is important. I think.

But anyway...nobody hurts anymore. They're not getting aligned, because the only person/robot who could align them is dead, but they're not in any pain. All except Grififn.

See, that makes no sense. There's no REASON. So they have to kill someone in order for the pain to go away? WHY? That makes no sense! So I might change that.

And everything after this I really don't like...there was going to be major disorder in the group, Griffin and Zach would leave, searching for someone who could align Griffin. They'd find Zach's crazy mom, who would fix Griffin, and Griffin, in order to totally cut ties/not ever hurt anymore, kills her. Zach, in his last truly human moment, begs him not to. He doesn't listen.

Yeah. It sucks. I know.

Do you have any better ideas? I'm kind of picturing this scene where they go free all the students at their school...but I don't know how that would really end, and I don't know how to get my theme across. "

Thanks, guys.

[roskoebaby]

Here's a PM I just sent Danger Jane re. the problems I'm having plotting my WIP. I was wondering if you guys could help me out.



So, why does Griffin still hurt? That's my question. Why is he different than everyone else? Or special.

Were they all human once and then slowly began to evolve?

Oh, I like that they have to kill to stop the pain keep that.

[Shady Lane]

Yeah...they all started turning into robots around late-puberty. At 15/16 or so.

I have NO IDEA why Griffin keeps hurting. It would be cool to have a good reason, otherwise I'm open to changing it to all of them keep hurting, or nobody hurts anymore...the idea about killing is cool, but....


oooh. okay.



idea.


What if Griffin gets to kill anyone he wants...and he chooses their old principal?


And the go to school and set everyone free?


And it would be so frickin bittersweet because it's like the end of education.


ooooh


ooooh


thoughts?

[JoNightshade]

Okay, how about this. Let me see if I've got it right. Griffin's dad is actually a robot (or half robot or whatever) being controlled by Griffin's mom. Griffin needs to be different. Why not make it his father's one attempt at being human? IE, his dad is enslaved to the mom, but he attempts to make Griffin more human than the other teens. For some reason (techno mumbo-jumbo) it means that the process of changing and getting wings hurts him more than anyone else. Maybe he didn't notice it before because he always gets taken care of; maybe he needs the treatment twice as often as anyone else. Maybe his dad attempted to slow his development but couldn't stop it entirely. Something like that.

[roskoebaby]

I love the school image. Like Pink Floyd comfortably numb....

I like that only Griffin hurts, it's mysterious. But why...hmmm. Why is he special?

What if, oh my, what if the dad that was his half-brothers' dad, was never his dad at all. Maybe the killing is hard for him because he wasn't meant to do it. What if he's supposed to take out his brothers?

[roskoebaby]

Okay, how about this. Let me see if I've got it right. Griffin's dad is actually a robot (or half robot or whatever) being controlled by Griffin's mom. Griffin needs to be different. Why not make it his father's one attempt at being human? IE, his dad is enslaved to the mom, but he attempts to make Griffin more human than the other teens. For some reason (techno mumbo-jumbo) it means that the process of changing and getting wings hurts him more than anyone else. Maybe he didn't notice it before because he always gets taken care of; maybe he needs the treatment twice as often as anyone else. Maybe his dad attempted to slow his development but couldn't stop it entirely. Something like that.


Aw, you beat me to it Nightshade :) great idea!

[Shady Lane]

Cool idea, Jo, seriously, but I don't think it's gonna work. Griffin wasn't created by his Dad, really...he was created by the Mom through the Dad. Dad is full robot...basically incapable of real motivations, functionally just an extention of Mom. She created Griffin Sr. and all the kids to be basically her robot army--to bring about her twisted ideas of justice.

This is such a weird ms, and I'm totally embarrased that I made you guys read the description/think about it because the entire thing is so bizarre.

[Shady Lane]

I'm leaning towards Griffin is different only because he didn't help kill his parents. He's the only one who hasn't murdered someone..."cut the strings," so to speak, so he can't be free like the rest of them.

He only lives with the Dad because he's the youngest....he was the last seed his Dad spread. Then he came home and settled down with dear wifey/creator.

[roskoebaby]

This is such a weird ms, and I'm totally embarrased that I made you guys read the description/think about it because the entire thing is so bizarre.

Dude, don't feel bad. I just posted a scene where a girl beats up her best friend with taco meat.

No, you description is fine. Bounce ideas. What if the mom intended for Griffen to be the leader and that's why he still hurts. Well they all hurt, but he hurts more because he's becoming stronger. He has to seek something out before he fully forms and becomes a murderous monster!

[roskoebaby]

I'm leaning towards Griffin is different only because he didn't help kill his parents. He's the only one who hasn't murdered someone..."cut the strings," so to speak, so he can't be free like the rest of them.

He only lives with the Dad because he's the youngest....he was the last seed his Dad spread. Then he came home and settled down with dear wifey/creator.


Okay. So he still hurts because he hasn't killed yet! That's your answer! Now he grapples with murder or freedom. School anyone?

[Shady Lane]

Okay YES. So. They destroy the school. Set the kids free. Death to education. Welcome to freedom, anarchy, etc. And then they FLY AWAY WITH THEIR PAINFREE WINGS OMG.

Thanks so much guys. Seriously. I owe one to you, roskoe. Thanks much, babe.

And Danger Jane and Jo of course were much help.

I get a point for this.


Shady: 2
Shady's Sucky Life: 4

[JoNightshade]

What if Griffin gets to kill anyone he wants...and he chooses their old principal?


And the go to school and set everyone free?


And it would be so frickin bittersweet because it's like the end of education.


thoughts?

I have to say that doing any sort of school killing makes me really uncomfortable and I think it's going to make a lot of readers uncomfortable, no matter if the dude is evil or not.

Also I wish Griffin would discover that he DOESN'T have to kill people to be free. Maybe the price he pays in not killing people is the pain. Maybe freedom is painful and that's the lesson he learns. When you seek to reduce your pain by doing things, you're enslaving yourself all the more.

Yeah, I know, it's your story, get my paws off of it. ;)

[JoNightshade]

Okay YES. So. They destroy the school. Set the kids free. Death to education. Welcome to freedom, anarchy, etc. And then they FLY AWAY WITH THEIR PAINFREE WINGS OMG.

No offense, but have you ever seen what happens when people kill their educators? It's not freedom, it's hell.

Okay, paws off now. :)

[roskoebaby]

I have to say that doing any sort of school killing makes me really uncomfortable and I think it's going to make a lot of readers uncomfortable, no matter if the dude is evil or not.

Also I wish Griffin would discover that he DOESN'T have to kill people to be free. Maybe the price he pays in not killing people is the pain. Maybe freedom is painful and that's the lesson he learns. When you seek to reduce your pain by doing things, you're enslaving yourself all the more.

Yeah, I know, it's your story, get my paws off of it. ;)

Got a point about the school thing, but I like the image of them running out. What if you make the vice principal seriously sinister than it can be a bit more accepting.

I too wish that Griffin could be good. But, if he's meant to be bad, let him be a bad mother f....r. ;)

[Shady Lane]

Haha, no problem, babe. It's supposed to be squeamy. This freedom is not good, just like it's not good that they have to set prisoners free to get aligned. There's good freedom and bad freedom--that's the point of the book.

And it's not pain he can live with...it's not like "aw man, kind of sore." It's debilitating. I made the process of alignment intentionally resemble smack and smack withdrawl...to echo Zach's smack addict brother.

None of the students will get hurt, if that helps. I don't even think we'll see the principal die, just Griffin rising afterwards.

And, yeah, they're not good boys...they're turning into machines. By the end of the stories, they're hardcore metal.

That's another thing....I'm throwing in sort of a metaphor about what society (and yeah, school) does to our teenage boys. Turns 'em into robots.

[Shady Lane]

Anarchy = not good, Jo.

And Griffin's not bad, per se...he's a boy out of options. Turning into a robot.

[roskoebaby]

That's another thing....I'm throwing in sort of a metaphor about what society (and yeah, school) does to our teenage boys. Turns 'em into robots.


You're gettin' deep, shady!

[Shady Lane]

Haha, thanks. That was my starting thesis. The freedom thing just sort of evolved. Damn symbolism.

[Danger Jane]

I would think bad freedom would be freedom obtained through well...badness.

Like murder.

Maybe his brothers are painfree...but not exactly. Like something else bad but slow happens to them.

And Griffin hasn't killed anyone, but he sees what's happening to his brothers, and he doesn't want to end up like that. He has to find a new mechanism for freedom.

And I guess the logical side of me (they ARE robots) wants a reason for killing somebody to make the pain stop.

[Shady Lane]

Like a mechanical reason? Yeah, me too.

It's what they were created to do, really. They were created to free the people. Free ALL the people, and everything that implies. It's not good. It's not happy everyone-love-each other freedom. It's chaos.

[writermom]

Does school have to be "school"? Can’t it be another name for a brainwashing/ recruiting / evil army training facility? In which case, it’s not anarchy… it’s freedom.

[Danger Jane]

So it's programmed into them.

But you can affect the wiring of your brain. There's studies on it. Maybe they struggle for that. To be honest, the burning school isn't doing it for me. I'd be confused at the end, I think.

[Shady Lane]

Nononononononono I don't want it to be a good thing.

Okay clearly I'm not coming across here so I'm just going to stop before I get myself really upset.

[roskoebaby]

Okay, what I'm thinkin is Griffin gives into the darkness. Or freedom. I like the thing about it being a brainwashing facility rather than being called a school. I know what you're going for, but just renaming it will make it less icky.

Should the reader feel like they've lost him in the end when he flies away. Like he's changed and you have that, No! Feeling?

[Shady Lane]

But Zach's changed in the same way. It's first person from him.

No, it's not a brainwashing facility. That's not how it works. I'm sorry, guys, but it's not like I'm advocating school shootings or something. The first ending was Griffin pushing Zach's mother into a metro bus. I need that same feel. It's supposed to be SO out of line. It's not supposed to be GOOD. I've just got to shut up now.

[Ziljon]

Shady, I don't understand how or why they would decide to kill Griffin if he's the only one who can align them.

Isn't it like killing your dentist?

[Shady Lane]

Yeah, it is kind of. But they don't kill Griffin. They kill his parents.

They think if they kill the parents they'll stop turning into robots. Surprise. They don't.

It's in their blood. That's another thing. Later Zach's best non-robot friend is like, "Dude, just come home and come back to school. We can disguise you, and everything will be fine." And Zach has to say, "Look. This isn't something bad that's happening to me. This is who I am."

[roskoebaby]

Later Zach's best non-robot friend is like, "Dude, just come home and come back to school. We can disguise you, and everything will be fine." And Zach has to say, "Look. This isn't something bad that's happening to me. This is who I am."

I really like this!

[Shady Lane]

Aw, thanks. I'm super excited to write that scene.

Sorry I'm being such a snarky bitch to everyone. I'm kind of in snarky bitch mode right now, and it's not any of y'all's fault. ghhhh.

[roskoebaby]

have a food fight

[Shady Lane]

I just took a shower. Seems counterproductive.

Plus my sister left for college last month so it's just me and my parents here. It's so lonely. :(

[Sage]

Okay, I have an idea for a not-because-we-killed reason for why they don't feel pain, but Griffin does (but not any specific way to fix Griffin). What if the pain is really caused by some signal being sent out by Griffin's parents (either one, but I think Dad works best)? Probably a signal that the body receives during the alignment for this to work right. The signal is disrupted, even if for a second, when they kill Dad so their robot bodies get the message to not feel the crack-withdrawal pain, but Griffin, who is far away, doesn't get the revised signal, & his body continues as it was last told to do.

Another idea is if there is something Dad (or Mom) does that makes the alignment feel good, then later he/she does before the leave to ensure that the feeling goes away & they return to pain & have to do what the parents want. So they go in under the guise of getting their next alignment & get it, then kill the parents before they can cause the "withdrawal" phase to start. But Griffin never got the next alignment, so he's constantly in withdrawal.

I don't know if any of that helps. And if you adopted these "answers," there's no reason why the boys couldn't misinterpret what actually fixed them.

[Shady Lane]

Another idea is if there is something Dad (or Mom) does that makes the alignment feel good, then later he/she does before the leave to ensure that the feeling goes away & they return to pain & have to do what the parents want. So they go in under the guise of getting their next alignment & get it, then kill the parents before they can cause the "withdrawal" phase to start. But Griffin never got the next alignment, so he's constantly in withdrawal.

Totally considered this one (and the first part too, I think, though in my demented state I couldn't follow it as well.)

It might still exist, in part. I'm really not sure. I think I need to sleep on it.

The reason I'm leaning towards the killing--they were created to be an army. They're made to do dirty work. It seems like they should have incentive to do it. But, again--there's no physical reason that would work, and that pisses me off like THIS MUCH.

[Chicken Warrior]

This is wonderfully bizarre. I almost wish I didn't read this thread so I wouldn't know the ending if and when I read the book. BUT, go ahead with the school. Publishing problems; possibly. Morally, I don't think it's out of line since it IS a tragedy. Controversy: not a problem (more publicity). This is actually a really intruiging concept, but I too feel lost without a technical reason behind both the pain, and the MC's difference. I'm also curious exactly how the end will portray negative freedom, but that's a writing thing, not plot.

Good luck to ya.

EDIT:

Okay, keep in mind I failed to see there was a page two. I'm not going to read page two because I don't want to spoil anymore of the story, so my comments might not make sense anymore.

[Chicken Warrior]

Okay, I did read this now. Couldn't help it.

Okay, just to clarify, there are two things that really need to be sorted out here.

1. Mother's overall motive. Why does she want a robot army?

2. Grandaddy's overall motive. He wants 'em to kill. Is this senial seniorhood and he just really hates 7eleven or is there logic here?

I'm pretty sure I'm missing something here, but anyways.

I have a feeling this should all link back to the school and something it's educating. Something about the bigger picture, the deeper backstory of the hole robot phenomenon. Either an invention of a professor, or just the educational curriculum, is both technically restrictive for the mother's big scheme and personally (if she has these kinds of feelings at all) enfuriating. So it in an ironic twist, they actually do what the mother wanted all along. They just don't know it.

AND, because presumably whatever is the school is saying about the robots, it might be a touchy subject for the mum and the MC.

One more question: is the mother actually, technically, inhuman, or just controlling of her inhuman family?

[Shady Lane]

Hey, thanks for the help! And the compliments, of course. :)

Mom's human. Her motives will definitely be explained, so no worries there. I'm confused by "grandaddy..." I only have two generations, here, so....
.
I have a feeling this should all link back to the school and something it's educating. Something about the bigger picture, the deeper backstory of the hole robot phenomenon. Either an invention of a professor, or just the educational curriculum, is both technically restrictive for the mother's big scheme and personally (if she has these kinds of feelings at all) enfuriating. So it in an ironic twist, they actually do what the mother wanted all along. They just don't know it.

I like this. So far, all I have is that the school was a bitch to Griffin when he started getting "sick." Instead of being worried about him, particurally when he ran away, their mean concern was if his condition was contagious. It's an impersonality dig--the big public school that treats its kids like numbers. Like robots, basically.

Since the first scene takes place at school, too, I think it will tie it all together quite nicely.

Still looking for that physical reason....though I think the way they kill people will have something to do with a laser in their hand. So maybe this laser could be more of a radiowave type thing....that fixes them?

[treefiddy]

I think I have a solution to your problem, but it might mean a bit of rewriting (of course if you've already found your fix here then feel free to ignore). What if Griffin was always the only one who had to have his wings realigned? It sounds like a flaw anyway, the dad could've been using him to keep his half brother in check too, and maybe used Griffin for the more serious missions, since he had a tighter control over him. It would also give Griffin an excellent reason to be more upset when his parents are killed.

[VisionScript]

You've probably fixed this already, but here are ideas:

Let's say Griffin's mom gave the specs to Griff's program to her so-called best friend who has a vendetta against Griff's mom because she refused to allow her to have an affair with her husband (don't know if that's YA, guess not--she's jealous of her perfect husband or something like that). So Griff's mom's best friend must be done away with because she knows too much and can't be trusted. She's already used the specs to try and sell them into the wrong hands and continues to align (or mal-align/cause pain transforming him) Griff for her own purposes (her vendetta and the fact that she is lazy and wants a personal robot). They have to bump her off because she holds the final secret and if those guys get their hands on it, all of them are subject to become lab rats.

Well, actually, maybe she has to be bumped off because they can't trust her to never try it again with any of the brothers (or maybe she even has plans for their future children).

[Shady Lane]

I think I have a solution to your problem, but it might mean a bit of rewriting (of course if you've already found your fix here then feel free to ignore). What if Griffin was always the only one who had to have his wings realigned? It sounds like a flaw anyway, the dad could've been using him to keep his half brother in check too, and maybe used Griffin for the more serious missions, since he had a tighter control over him. It would also give Griffin an excellent reason to be more upset when his parents are killed.

Hey, welcome to AW!

This is a cool idea, and would make an excellent book. But it's not the one I'm writing, unfortunantly....the rewriting would be a little too major for me, I think, and change too much that I like. But thank you!

[Shady Lane]

You've probably fixed this already, but here are ideas:

Let's say Griffin's mom gave the specs to Griff's program to her so-called best friend who has a vendetta against Griff's mom because she refused to allow her to have an affair with her husband (don't know if that's YA, guess not--she's jealous of her perfect husband or something like that). So Griff's mom's best friend must be done away with because she knows too much and can't be trusted. She's already used the specs to try and sell them into the wrong hands and continues to align Griff for her own purposes (her vendetta and the fact that she is lazy and wants a personal robot). They have to bump her off because she holds the final secret and if those guys get their hands on it, all of them are subject to become lab rats.

Well, actually, maybe she has to be bumped off because they can't trust her to never try it again with any of the brothers (or maybe she even has plans for their future children).

I don't think this will work, but I want you to know that this is an AWESOME idea. Seriously. And I am thinking about it, even though it's so far away from everything I had planned. Because it's that good.

[VisionScript]

I don't think this will work, but I want you to know that this is an AWESOME idea. Seriously. And I am thinking about it, even though it's so far away from everything I had planned. Because it's that good.

Thanks! It's really encouraging that you liked the idea so much.

(If part of what didn't work was Griff's continuing pain, I should point out that I edited the version you cited in your post to include that Griff's mom's so-called best friend continued to align, rather mis-align, Griff to her own specifications, which caused his pain to continue). If Griff's pain was more intense or confusing than the others' pains, her secret meddling could have been the reason.

[Shady Lane]

Thanks! It's really encouraging that you liked the idea so much.

(If part of what didn't work was Griff's continuing pain, I should point out that I edited the version you cited in your post to include that Griff's mom's so-called best friend continued to align, rather mis-align, Griff to her own specifications, which caused his pain to continue). If Griff's pain was more intense or confusing than the others' pains, her secret meddling could have been the reason.

That works. My concern, really, is in introducing an important character so late.

I've got a plan at this point that I think will work, but I'll definitely consider this for the second draft if I have a problem with the solution I've planned. Thanks for the help!

[SinkFulloDishes]

Plus my sister left for college last month so it's just me and my parents here. It's so lonely. :(

Aw, I totally feel for you there. My sister left for college right before I started my junior year. My sister is one of my best friends; we now live 200+ miles apart, but still talk to each other several times a week. On the plus side, I went to the same college two years later :D. She then came to visit all the time for my last two years of college. Good times...

About your story, I'm not sure if I followed everything fully, but I had a quick thought about Griffin's pain - what if the boys had some connection to the father, like you'd have with a computer network? The connection is severed, and they lose part of the controlling aspect. Possible reasons it might not have an effect on Griffin: 1) the father isn't really his father, 2) He's either more robot, or less, than the other boys; like, maybe he is more like the father, and has more control than any of them, but hasn't realized it yet.

Have fun :).

Liz

[Shady Lane]

Liz--I like the idea of the computer server--problem is, Griffin's father really does have to be his father. Plotwise, and everything.

Damn plot.

I should really stop deliberating and just get back to work. It's alllllmost time to kill off the parents.

[VisionScript]

That works. My concern, really, is in introducing an important character so late.

I've got a plan at this point that I think will work, but I'll definitely consider this for the second draft if I have a problem with the solution I've planned. Thanks for the help!

Okay. Then you won't mind my rambling. What if the so-called bf was tampering with Biff's alignments because his having wings just didn't suit her? What if that's why Biff's always had more pain and been required to perform more horrendous acts in order to be eligible for alignment?

The way I would edit in the so-called bf would be to just toss in bits and pieces of her as if she were as insiginifcant to the plot as the waitress at the coffee shop. You could use dialogue with her as an info-dump.

[VisionScript]

I should really stop deliberating and just get back to work. It's alllllmost time to kill off the parents.

Grin. Yeah. Your story will ultimately build itself out of your own reservoir (hint: your avatar).