Anyone write in omniscient POV?

Susan Breen · Sep 2, 2007

Has anyone here tried to write in the omnisicient POV (I suspect the answer is yes) and how do you do it right? What's the difference between omnisicience and head-hopping? I know I can tell when someone is doing it right (such as Ann Patchett in Bel Canto), but how do you get there?

Azraelsbane · Sep 2, 2007

The novel I finished a couple weeks ago was written in 3rd omniscient, but I'm likely not much help, because during edits I decided to change the entire thing to close 3rd limited. Talk about a long haul! 100k of changes, deciding scene povs, etc, has been a nightmare.

I chose not to keep it omni because I felt my skill at it was lacking (also I wanted my readers to connect more with my MCs). Omni is rough, and though it's rather "out of style" lately, there's rumor it's coming back. So who knows!

Besides, when it's done well it's amazing.

Shady Lane · Sep 2, 2007

These books do Omni, and it's never jarring for me. Then again, I'm not an expert. Some might think they're headhopping, I don't know.

(They're all fantastic books, too, btw.)

Center Line by Joyce Sweeny

Saffy's Angel, Indigo's Star, Permanent Rose, and Caddy Ever After by Hilary McKay

The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin.

Hilary McKay, especially, knows what she's doing. Her omniscient is sooooo tight.

Susan Breen · Sep 2, 2007

Thanks so much for the list. But do you think it's all subjective? If it's working, then it's omnisicient and if it's not, then it's headhopping?

c.e.lawson · Sep 2, 2007

I have to say I agree with Susan. I just don't quite get the difference between simple head-hopping and a well-written omniscient POV. With regard to the omniscient narrator - is this a character that's actually introduced? Could it be a character in the story? Or someone on the outside looking in? Or is it just an unseen voice? When do we find out who that narrator is? Or do we? I'm really trying to understand this but the lightbulb has just not clicked on yet.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

c.e.

aadams73 · Sep 2, 2007

Susan Breen said:
But do you think it's all subjective? If it's working, then it's omnisicient and if it's not, then it's headhopping?

No, it's not at all subjective. True omniscience is a very distinct creature from headhopping. You might have a quick search back a page or four, because it seems like we went into the differences quite thoroughly just a week or two back. There's tons of good reading there.

My recommendation for really great omniscience: Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. He's a master of the the omniscient POV.

Shady Lane · Sep 2, 2007

Susan Breen said:
Thanks so much for the list. But do you think it's all subjective? If it's working, then it's omnisicient and if it's not, then it's headhopping?

I'd say so, yes. But of course, there are rules/ways to make it work.

But I've definitely never written in omniscient, soooo.

Susan Breen · Sep 2, 2007

I did go back and look at the previous thread and that was helpful, but...I am still confused. I'm wondering if anyone has the energy to compile a list (a short one) of rules to use when writing in omnisicient. For example, do you have to have a strong all-knowing narrator (It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.)
And please just ignore me if you're tired of thinking about this.

JanDarby · Sep 2, 2007

The key to writing in omniscient is just to make it clear that there is an omniscient narrator, someone separate and apart from the characters, who is telling the story. Establish that fact in the first paragraph, and remind the reader every once in a while that the narrator is still there and is in control. There's no "head hopping," because the reader is consistently bonded to the narrator, even when experiencing a character's thoughts. Everything is filtered through the narrator's head, in a sense.

Terry Pratchett is a master, worthy of study.

JD

c.e.lawson · Sep 2, 2007

Thanks, Jan Darby. To follow up - how does one establish that the narrator can know each character's thoughts? Or does that even need to be established?

Sage · Sep 2, 2007

Shady Lane said:
The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin.

The Westing Game was a good book, but the use of the multiple POVs actually clued me into whodunnit. (Don't remember if it was omni or just many POVs.)

Sage · Sep 2, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
Thanks, Jan Darby. To follow up - how does one establish that the narrator can know each character's thoughts? Or does that even need to be established?

The narrator knows everyone's thoughts because they are omniscient

Devil Ledbetter · Sep 2, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
Thanks, Jan Darby. To follow up - how does one establish that the narrator can know each character's thoughts? Or does that even need to be established?

Omniscient means "all knowing" so having an omniscient narrator automatically establishes that.

Your narrator may "choose" to tell parts of the story from the perspective of a given character, so sometimes he'll reveal only what that character experiences, but the narrator himself remains omniscient. Like any storyteller, he know the entire story but doesn't give it up all at once.

OverTheHills&FarAway · Sep 2, 2007

The narrator is a presence. It is aware of the reader, and may address him directly. It's just another layer of narrative you gotta be aware of: the characters, the setting, the narrator and the reader, all at once, past present and future. It's like knowing everything and only showing a sliver of it. But that sliver makes you want to see more.

I love omniscient. I hope it comes back, because that's all I seem to be able to write.

JanDarby · Sep 2, 2007

how does one establish that the narrator can know each character's thoughts?

There's sort of an attitude to omniscient that radiates confidence and insight, an attitude that pretty much says "don't even think about questioning me." And if the reader bonds with the narrator, it's all part of the "suspension of disbelief" aspect of storytelling/reading.

Personally, I think omniscient generally takes a hugely larger-than-life narrator, which is part of what makes it so difficult to do well. That kind of impact is hard to sustain over the course of 400 pages.

JD

lkp · Sep 2, 2007

I agree with Jan. It takes an author who is very comfortable and aware of his or her own particular "voice." Think Jane Austen. I'd love to try something omniscient some time. I know I am not skilled enough yet.

maestrowork · Sep 2, 2007

aadams73 said:
No, it's not at all subjective. True omniscience is a very distinct creature from headhopping. You might have a quick search back a page or four, because it seems like we went into the differences quite thoroughly just a week or two back. There's tons of good reading there.

There was a good thread on omniscient in which a few of use explained the difference between head-hopping and omniscient. The former is switching POVs in a predominantly 3rd limited narrative, and the latter is (in true omniscient) is a consistent, unique all-knowing narrative voice that does not falter or lose focus.

A true omniscient narrator could be an unnamed narrator (the old-time storyteller that says "Once upon a time") or someone in the story who retell the entire tale -- and somehow he knows what everyone was thinking and what happened all the time (he could very well have studied all the individual accounts, etc.) but the idea is that there is this single narrator who sits somewhere away from the whole thing and tells the story.

maestrowork · Sep 2, 2007

Susan Breen said:
For example, do you have to have a strong all-knowing narrator (It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.)

Yes -- a strong narrative voice would really help -- it must be authoritative and all-knowing (thus the term omniscient). It helps if the voice is unique and easily relatable.

Most omniscient narrators are unnamed, but it's also possible to have a narrator who is, say, a descendent of the characters in the story and he/she is recounting what happened.

Omniscient narrator does NOT assume the POV of the characters, unlike 1st or 3rd person limited. The omniscient narrator has its own point of view -- the all-knowing "guy." It does not filter anything through the characters. It may choose to report on what one character experiences, but it is still told from the omniscient narrator's POV.

Omniscient narrator can report anything it wants, but it should also maintain focus for clarity's sake. If it's reporting on character A, it's good to maintain that focus instead of jumping around. However, the narrator is allowed to report anything it wants ("Little did John know, the volcano was about to erupt.")

Omniscient narrator can have a personality. Imagine Zeus telling a story, and Zeus has a personality. He also might has his biases and philosophies, and he may "intrude" (narrative intrusion), but it's better to keep it at minimum.

Omniscient narrator should be reliable. Since the narrator is usually not part of the story, and it's all-knowing, and it reports on the whole thing, the readers come to trust the narrator to tell the truth. Unlike 1st person narrator, who can be unreliable or semi-reliable, the omniscient narrator should not lie to the readers, and it should not be "unsure" about anything. It is, after all, omniscient.

Shady Lane · Sep 2, 2007

Omniscient narrator can have a personality. Imagine Zeus telling a story, and Zeus has a personality. He also might has his biases and philosophies, and he may "intrude" (narrative intrusion), but it's better to keep it at minimum.

That would me a Lemony Snicket thing, right?

maestrowork · Sep 2, 2007

Shady Lane said:
That would me a Lemony Snicket thing, right?

Right... here, the narrator even has a name!

Death Wizard · Sep 2, 2007

maestrowork said:
Yes -- a strong narrative voice would really help -- it must be authoritative and all-knowing (thus the term omniscient). It helps if the voice is unique and easily relatable.

Most omniscient narrators are unnamed, but it's also possible to have a narrator who is, say, a descendent of the characters in the story and he/she is recounting what happened.

Omniscient narrator does NOT assume the POV of the characters, unlike 1st or 3rd person limited. The omniscient narrator has its own point of view -- the all-knowing "guy." It does not filter anything through the characters. It may choose to report on what one character experiences, but it is still told from the omniscient narrator's POV.

Omniscient narrator can report anything it wants, but it should also maintain focus for clarity's sake. If it's reporting on character A, it's good to maintain that focus instead of jumping around. However, the narrator is allowed to report anything it wants ("Little did John know, the volcano was about to erupt.")

Omniscient narrator can have a personality. Imagine Zeus telling a story, and Zeus has a personality. He also might has his biases and philosophies, and he may "intrude" (narrative intrusion), but it's better to keep it at minimum.

Omniscient narrator should be reliable. Since the narrator is usually not part of the story, and it's all-knowing, and it reports on the whole thing, the readers come to trust the narrator to tell the truth. Unlike 1st person narrator, who can be unreliable or semi-reliable, the omniscient narrator should not lie to the readers, and it should not be "unsure" about anything. It is, after all, omniscient.

What he said.

c.e.lawson · Sep 2, 2007

So, let's see if I have this straight. (And I DID read the other thread, I'm just having a hard time with this.)

Head hopping:

Sarah stared at the steaming plate of pasta before her and tried to keep her stomach from growling. Her uncle continued with his toast, holding his glass of wine up high as his voice droned on. My God, she thought. When will he shut up? I'm starving!

Bill finished the last words of his toast and smiled at his niece Sarah, glad he'd taken the time to rehearse the speech so carefully. She seemed so grateful for his words, heaving him a big sigh and a smile as he nodded and lowered his glass.

Omniscient:

The Johnson family always placed great importance on their meals. Sarah, for instance, was always hungry, and pasta was her favorite dish. At this dinner, however, she was even more anxious to dig in, having skipped lunch that day altogether.

Uncle Bill, more given to enjoying the social interaction than the food, gave the toast as usual. Aware of the importance of the occasion, he had spent extra time that morning preparing a special speech. He noted with satisfaction that his niece Sara had appeared particularly touched by his words and he nodded, blissfully unaware that what had seemed like a sigh of deep gratitude was actually Sara's intense relief at finally being able to eat.

~~~~~~~~~

Am I even close?

seun · Sep 3, 2007

maestrowork said:
Omniscient narrator does NOT assume the POV of the characters, unlike 1st or 3rd person limited. The omniscient narrator has its own point of view -- the all-knowing "guy."

Just to clarify (as I'm feeling a little slow this morning), a book with several characters POV would be 3rd limited as long as that POV didn't change in the middle of a scene?

aadams73 · Sep 3, 2007

seun said:
Just to clarify (as I'm feeling a little slow this morning), a book with several characters POV would be 3rd limited as long as that POV didn't change in the middle of a scene?

Not necessarily. You can still have an omni POV and only dip into one head per scene/chapter. It's all about that all-knowing narrator.

seun · Sep 3, 2007

aadams73 said:
Not necessarily. You can still have an omni POV and only dip into one head per scene/chapter. It's all about that all-knowing narrator.

I don't really use an all-knowing narrator but I do change POV in different chapters. That's not head-hopping, is it?

Anyone write in omniscient POV?

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