Am I ripping off Cummings?

[skelly]

I really wanted to post this poem for critique, but I guess that's blown. I PM'd Rob about it but he seems to be busy at the moment. So I'll throw it out to all of you. Not looking for a critique here, just your honest opinion.

It's a poem about E. E. Cummings, and I have bolded the questionable parts:

Edward...

how lilt you
through the summer's gloaming?
what way your words--
a tidal surge--
whitely foaming?
I have stood in you
up to my ankles
and bathed as women do,
shy and quick to swaddle,
trembling on the rocky shore.
how lilt you through
a summer's evening?
sitting, perhaps, out-of-doors
beneath your cornerless
box of sky
gazing up at the angry candy
and searching
for just the right word?

is it lavender?

The bolded parts are a direct reference to the last stanza of Cummings' poem "the Cambridge ladies who live in furnished souls," which I quote as follows:

.... the Cambridge ladies do not care, above
Cambridge if sometimes in its box of
sky lavender and cornerless, the
moon rattles like a fragment of angry candy

So I am trying to capture the moment, the essence of the moment, of Cummings creating one of his wonderful poems, in this instance, "the Cambridge ladies..." Does anybody think that I am ripping him off by using those images the way he used them? It is important, because if I can't use them in this manner, the poem makes absolutely no sense, imo.

What do you guys think?

[Nakhlasmoke]

Um, it looks like it to me, but I'm no expert. i enjoyed your poem though, for what it's worth.

[skelly]

Man. The only other approach would be to put the phrases in quotes...or quote Cummings' lines as a prologue to the poem...or both...which totally kills the effect that I am shooting for. I guess this one is dead. DAMN it all. I really liked this one.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. It is pretty much as I suspected, which is why I came here to ask about it in the first place. I have this image of Cummings sitting out in a back yard on a warm summer night writing that poem, sometime back in the '30's. But I don't know what to do with it. Nothing, I guess.

[dclary]

I disagree, and as proof of my disagreement, my poem on Robert Frost, with what some might call "ripping off" but I call "my homage." (You'll also notice that I simply put quotes around Frost's line. Won't that work for you? If you didn't want to quote, you could italicize (or deitalicize, as the case may be).

Ode to Frost

I found myself in want of something true
about the world I saw before my eyes
the angle of a bird across the skies
the colors of the sky in reds and blues
a simple poet who could write for you
of roads and walls and fields with great surprise
so humble is he now and yet so wise
perhaps you've read his work a time or two?
of course I speak of mister robert frost
a poet I have learned to love in time
he wrote of simple times now gone long whence
and though I think the age is too far lost
I savor his great works as though sublime
oh yes, "and that has made the difference."


And what I like to point out most about this poem:

iambic pentameter, italian rhyme scheme biyotches!

[dclary]

Additionally, I once wrote a poem about how much I hated "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" with a refrain of "In the lane the pretty girls talk/squawking about J. Alfred Prufrock." -- This was neither italicized nor quoted, but was clearly a ripoff of Prufrock itself.



Write it. And if someone mentions you're using cummings in your poem, look at him as though he's the last person in the room to have figured that out and say, "Duh."

[skelly]

<-----Big fan of J. Alfred, btw. M'just sayin. :D

Thanks for the encouraging perspective. I've been debating all morning (except when I ran out to get donuts) whether or not to put thos phrases in quotes. The only problem is that the "angry candy" image is the only direct quote. "Cornerless box of sky" is a twist of the original line. But it was Cummings who came up with those images, who described the night sky as a cornerless box, and the moon as angry candy. I worry that people might think that I'm trying to palm then off as my own images...although if you know the poet and/or the poem, it should all be fairly obvious (I think).

I like the suggestion in your last post best. I'm gonna copy the link to it, and if anybody gives me any shit about it I'll slap the link on their ass and say "Screw you. dclary said I could!"

:) Thanks for thoughts on the issue. btw, I like your ode to Frost, too. Good stuff.

[dclary]

:D

Well, it's true. As poets, we honestly filter our entire world view and frame of cultural references into 50 words or less. If you look at Prufrock, for instance: it's considered such a great poem (as much as I hate it) because of how many allusions to other works are in it, how many different styles it emulates. T.S. Eliot showcases everything he knows about poetry in that piece.

I would have a much larger problem with you passing off those phrases in any poem that WASN'T about cumming. But using imagery he created in a poem to pay him tribute? The rain would have to have small hands indeed if it were too petty to appreciate that.

[dclary]

I like the suggestion in your last post best. I'm gonna copy the link to it, and if anybody gives me any shit about it I'll slap the link on their ass and say "Screw you. dclary said I could!"

btw... should warn you, there's statutes in 8 states forbidding actions based on the advice of dclary. Just so you know.

[wyntermoon]

Love it and I don't think it's a rip-off either as long as you note your reference. :)

Excellent job!

[skelly]

Thanks for the kind words, wyntermoon.

[Kentuk]

You should concentrate on making the poem 'ring' for the casual reader, your crediting/tribute to e.e. cumings can be obscure and meant only for those who recognize his work and imagery.

[ddgryphon]

I don't think so. To clarify, you might say this is to ee cummings or asterix the lines that give you concern. But really, I feel it stands fine without any of that and those who realize that it's a nod, will know it by context. Those who don't realize will never know or fully understand what it is about.

BTW you've used the lines referentially (izzat a word?) and turned their meaning back on the poet rather than just copying them. In actuality they create a different effect than in the original context.

So, I don't think I'd call it ripping him off so much as riffing off him to build a conversation across time with him.

[skelly]

I don't think so. To clarify, you might say this is to ee cummings or asterix the lines that give you concern. But really, I feel it stands fine without any of that and those who realize that it's a nod, will know it by context. Those who don't realize will never know or fully understand what it is about.

BTW you've used the lines referentially (izzat a word?) and turned their meaning back on the poet rather than just copying them. In actuality they create a different effect than in the original context.

So, I don't think I'd call it ripping him off so much as riffing off him to build a conversation across time with him.
THAT'S what I'm talkin about! Thank you. I just need somebody to put it into some context--or perspective--that mirrors my own thinking.

I really appreciate everybody taking a minute on this...it has really been bugging me.

[skelly]

:D
The rain would have to have small hands indeed if it were too petty to appreciate that.
That's my favorite poem of all time. Number one no bullshit favorite poem of all time. And that last line is the most brilliant line of poetry ever written.

[JRH]

Skelly,

There is nothing wrong with borrowing images or making obvious references to other's poems. It is, as DClary stated, a form of "homage".

I've done it many times with Yeats, Eliot or others when working similar themes. for example here is one that extends the thought of Eliots 1st Prelude:

After The Prelude

And then, the lighting of the lamps,
Glowing coals of fire dying down.
Then, the smoke that fills the room,
Clinging to walls, creeping through halls;
Evening papers in the waning light,
That crumple down as silence calls.

The night is warm.
Through windows I can see
The swarm of mankind sweep.
Streetlights cast their shadows
On every shaded home.

This is the cold and silent night.
This is the walled-in night,
Where children's games.....
Are children's games.
Years will separate their names.
This year.....I pause to watch the flames
With cold elation.

The coals die out.....
Smoke is all they leave.
Even that will thin;
Leave the room to me.

Soon.....
The putting out of lamps.

Let darkness fall.....
And peace.

Copyright (c) Spring 1970 by James R. Hoye

******

I've also "borrowed" Yeat's image of the "boneshop of the heart" in my tribute to "Dali" and done a series of Cummingsesque poems featuring wordplay in the same way as He does in "Anyone lived in a pretty cow-town" in poems like "As Strange As It Might Seem" and "Choices" (which have been posted elsewhere on the board) and "Anywho" which I'll be posting shortly.

As DDGryphon says, such use of any Poet's work is more a "riffing" off his thought that ripping off their work.

Fear not, for I suspect Cummings would appreciate your "tip of the hat".

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[poetinahat]

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you sooner, Scott -- it was Father's Day here.

As I said in my PM, I'm no expert on intellectual property, but I think your references are okay -- they're not direct lifts, and they are in the context of a tribute. I'd pretty much expect such a poem to have close references such as these.

And I really wish clary would show his mad iambic pentametrical skillz in TIO. Word up, Petrarch.

[dclary]

And I really wish clary would show his mad iambic pentametrical skillz in TIO. Word up, Petrarch.
:|

[poetinahat]

:|
[B-:{|>



(MC Hammer)

[dclary]

[B-:{|>



(MC Hammer)

Can't touch that.

[Hillgate]

At least you're not intending to replicate his use of the words 'gloaming' or 'swaddle'...just write away! :)

[Unique]

hey! I like the word 'gloaming'. Doesn't it mean the 'coming dark that sticks to you like dirt'?

O, I guess it doesn't matter because I don't believe I've read ee cummings.

:::::runs away before she's burned at the stake::::

[WriterUnboxed]

I think it's okay, though why not tip the phrases on their ear a bit?
Like: "...out-of-doors
beneath your sky, that cornerless box"

etc...

My 2 cents. But I like your poem. Nice job!