wondering about trilogy vs single large novel

Status
Not open for further replies.

BrokenSword

keeper of the Flame
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
153
Reaction score
11
Location
Michigan
Website
www.SwordOfShakespeare.com
Well, I'm relatively new here and have lurked as well as posted a bit in the poetry section all the while picking up a lot of valuable information. I'm in the same boat with those in which honking large stories just seems to have happened. I've analyzed and rethought several tracks I can pursue, all upon reading the info contained by this board's good members.

So, the details are this; first time novel, very large word count @ 342K,
a storyline that really has no branches for me to consider cutting, and a plethora of entrenched poetry upon which the story is hinged. So, let's see, seems I have three strikes against me already from what I perceive is the majority opinion after searching the archives of AW. Despite that, I'm going to take a stab at this opportunity nonetheless; I figure I'll not really know anything until I try and that's what I'm going to do.

So this is the question and I suppose I can already guess the outcome, but the choice and preference poll suggested itself; which, if you had a choice, would you rather read--a trilogy of 300 page books or one large tome?

I already know the advice is for me to A)condense to <150K (which I can't possible see doing because it would mean cutting 2/3 of what I have) or B) split the story into parts. I can see natural break points at almost an even 110K and so, a trilogy could be attempted.

I'm asking for this reason and I'll use LoTR as my example; growing up and having read that series, I had 3 books (and I might add, most of what I read then was nearer 200-250 pages in the sci-fi fantasy genre, so this was a long book/series on many levels esp then) to read. Later, as my own kids grew to an appreciative age, I bought LoTR in a single, large form. I read it to them and in truth, if I had my choice again, would prefer the one large tome. Of course I'm thinking that what I've written is much better 'seen/read' as a single unit but realize from the many pieces of advice here, that I'll probably never see the light of published day if I keep it in its present length. Doesn't mean I still don't think it a better idea to NOT separate but I'm trying to loosen my preconceived thoughts from more practical ones.

So, of those series that are true series and not just continuations of a popular storyline, in which form would you prefer to 'read/buy' said series?


Below, the particulars of what I've written;

This ms I've conceived and finished is a cross between historical romance and fantasy, with the bulk centering on historical romance but the fantastical element being the critical underpinning upon which the storyline revolves. A lot of the words and white space generated by the large number of pages is due to the poetry and quite a bit of dialog, each of which I feel pulls and does not slow the reader, making those moments less of a deterrent. I have read that epic historical pieces often go longer than 120K, but what I've read here is that I've eclipsed even that courtesy.

As a followup question, I have received preliminary quotes for 'printing only' and I can easily get this entire story to be printed and bound (paperback, 6x9, perfect bind, 1000 copies) for less than $10 per piece and I expect I could get it lower with a much higher order. With this number in my mind, I'm thinking the cost to print one book vs 3 would not be such a deterrent. The price of three novels could come in at under $25 and a single version could be$20 or so and (I'm assuming) there is still plenty of profit for the publisher. I guess this all comes down to whether a reader/buyer is going to also pass by one large 1000+ page book and instead, take a chance on the $8.99 paperback which might be one of three in a series. Is this the current thought?

Thank you for any and all opinions and further discussion. I've enjoyed reading the threads and participating here. I look forward to doing more of this.

Michael
 

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
Hi. I'm pretty much in the same boat. My book is 1015 pages long and growing. It started off as a small book then the plot grew out of control and now its just too big. I've split it into seven parts and its still too big. I've thought long and hard what to do about the length and basically, when it comes down to it, I have no choice but to go back and edit it to death because otherwise it will not sell. That's the impression I've pretty much gotten. Hell, an editor herself told me so over the phone.

You said that alot of the bulk of your book is taken up by dialogue and poetry? Cut it back. Rip out entire sections if you must. Be vicious. Its what I'm going to do. You have to ask yourself, is this scene important? Does this section of dialogue go on for too long? Am I straying from the point? If you've written 300k of mostly flowery description and dialogue (hell, I have) you're going to have to trim it all back. I'm planning to cut my book down to 400 pages. I thought about spliting it into a three book series at one point, then realised it would not work.

Publishers will simply not take a risk on a 1,000 page manuscript from an unknown author because it is too much of a risk. Not alot of people would be willing to read that much. Some would, but not lots, which means unless you've got a killer plotline, the publisher is not going to make much money. You said your book has no branches for you to consider cutting. I find that hard to believe. You're going to have to take things out that you really like. I am. Its all apart of editing. I'm planning on deleting six characters. Good luck with your work! and congrats on sticking with your novel for so long! Its exciting and a bit scary once you get past that 1,000 mark isn't it?
 

Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX

Bored Fanatic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
378
Reaction score
53
Location
Dreamind, Saraton
Xx| I find myself at 43k into my story and just a little bit less than half done with one of three arcs--I'm already planning on giving each arc its own book. It would let me focus more on each, as each would be the main plot of its respective book, but I can keep my overall theme and have that come to its climax in the end. And it would still be interesting. And it would be efficient.

So, be really objective and see what you can cut. Find beta readers, perhaps. Share pieces you're wondering about (about 2 to 3 k word pieces, that is XD) on this board's Share Your Work section. When you're done with all that as far as you can without losing the story/good stuff, then see where you stand. If you can, a trilogy would be great. Or maybe you'll be in the more considerable <200k range. Or perhaps under 150k.

If you can't cut it down far enough and can't cut it into a trilogy or two-booker, you can try your hand at querying it. Agents and publishers no like tomes from first-timers, but there's a chance. If that doesn't prove successful or you don't want to risk it, then wait a little while. Write something else, distance yourself from it. When you're done with the next book(s), go back the first, give it a once or twice over, see if you still can't cut anything, then finish the other book(s), editing, etc., and get something else published. Or two or three something else-s. Then, with publishing credits under your belt, go for the tome. :D

Good luck!

Now, let's see how many I'm cross-posting with...ETA: Lol, no one. Well, it's late and slow. XD |xX
 

dmytryp

Banned
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
7,207
Reaction score
700
Location
Stranded in Omaha
Website
www.webpage4u.co.il
BrokenSword, hi!
First of all, welcome!
Forgive me if I sound a bit harsh here and do not be offended.
First of all, please, consider the usual route to publishing -- i.e. agent/publisher, before you go to self-pub (which I gathered from your references to checking the printer costs).
Second, there isn't really a question here -- the way it is now your novel won't see publication (unless self-pubbed). Agents and editors will see that word count from first time writer and send you a nice rejection slip "not for us", maybe circling the wordcount in the process. So you really have two choices -- you either roll up your sleeves and cut it down to a manageble size (under 150k), or you break it into several books. The LoTR reference is not very relevant -- Tolkien wasn't a first time author and it was a very different era (and still his publishers insisted on breaking it into several volumes). If you decide to break the book into trilogy (or two books), keep in mind that the first book has to stand on its own (you can't vouch for the publisher to publish the following books even if he does the first one). It has to be a coplete novel (leaving strings for sequels is ok, but preferably no cliffhangers), otherwise you are facing an uphill battle to find agent/publisher.
I hope this helped
Welcome again
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,767
Reaction score
4,662
Location
Scotland
Hi Broken Sword. What are you more interested in - seeing your work in print or having it bought by readers?
 

Stijn Hommes

Know what you write...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,309
Reaction score
128
Location
Netherlands
Website
www.peccarymagazine.5u.com
From a practical point of view, I've found large tomes to break and tear easily. I'd separate the story into a trilogy if only it was just to make the book more manageable to carry without damaging it. I like to read on the bus or in an airplane and books of 1000 pages or more are simply not practical to take with me.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,097
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
I'll also say that I bet you can edit a lot of words without cutting scenes even in your book. I am notoriously long winded, and sure my book wasn't as long as yours, at 97 000 words, but I cut 10 000 words from it without cutting a single scene or restructuring it. Simply a paragraph here, sentence there. I think you are at the point you just have to sit back, be objective and edit. Almost anything can be edited down. I'm not necessarily saying you could edit it down to 150 000, but I bet you could get it way down simply by doing that.

Whenever I edit, I have to tell myself over and over, "Stop being precious, will you be thinking about this edit even an hour from now?" Often, surprisingly, the answer is no.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
2,130
Reaction score
186
Location
At the computer
Website
www.daverobinsonwrites.com
I know it's a lot of work, but try going through the ms. a line at a time trying to shorten and strengthen the writing. Then do it again. From what you've written above it doesn't sound like you've tried a serious cut yet, so their should be room to cut things.

For example, I find many of my sentences had things like: "He looked down at the deck below." I can easily chop two of the seven words from that without removing meaning, and strengthen my writing. Start by going through and clearing out deadwood like the "down" and "below" in my example if you haven't already. You may even find whole sentences that just repeat the previous thought in a slightly different way, and be able to chop one and shorten the other.

See what you can do to tighten it first, because it will make the book better regardless of how you end up trying to sell it.
 

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
5,363
Reaction score
1,763
Location
Getting blitzed at Gillhoughly's Reef, Haleakaloha
would you rather read--a trilogy of 300 page books or one large tome?

Either, so long as they are well written.

Get your massive opus finished, then write a shorter work in the same genre and send it out. If it sells you'll have a better chance of selling a trilogy.

Unless you plan to self-publish, let the publishers worry about the costs of printing mass-market paperbacks. They get discounts you don't know about.

The acquiring editor only wants a good, well-written book she can take upstairs to convince the Suits that their house can make money with your words.

Fat books are out there, but when you get your feet wet for the first time it is best to stay within their guidelines. If they want 100K don't send them 300K. It makes it that much easier to reject.

Tom Clancy writes enormously fat books (which really need drastic editing but he makes them money so they don't do that anymore so I stopped reading him) but his Hunt for Red October was within their guidelines and tight as a drum.

Selling a work that fits in the guidelines gives you one heck of a pro credit. You'll probably an agent by then and be in a better position to make a 3-book deal for your trilogy. While it's in the publishing machine you're free to work on the next batch of titles.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,939
Reaction score
263
Website
www.johnzakour.com
What she said...

Yeah 300K is a tough first sell, but a much easier sell (either as a trilogy or a tome) after a successful smaller first sell. (See JK Rowlings...)

Plus chances are that if this is your first novel you have a lot of extra words.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
Novel

I think it's Uncle Jim who sometimes gives the advice to "Shelve the book. Write a second novel that's the length publishers want, and after that one sells, hit them with this one."

Any novel can be cut to size. Any novel. But if you don't want to do this, I think writing another novel that actually fits within a publisher's length guidelines is far and away the best chance of getting published.
 

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
3,459
Reaction score
653
Website
www.joannabourne.com
I don't want to be discouraging.
Let me say a couple few things.

It's easy to write long.
Generally, folks who write a tight, disciplined, 100K ms could much more easily spin out a sloppy 160K. Length is not an accomplishment. More often than not, it signals a lack of coherent plot structure.


You are competing with shorter manuscripts.
If there are a dozen manuscripts on the desk as good as yours, the agent or editor will flick yours aside and pick up the one with the right wordcount.
(This is rather like auditioning for the lead in the school play when you are 100 pounds overweight. You may be a good actor, but ...)
The only exception to this is if you've created a work of such stupendous marketability that the ordinary rules do not apply.
Have you?
One way to discover this is to submit your work to agents. If you are that good, they will let you know.


If you go to an e-publisher or print up copies yourself, it doesn't matter how long your manuscript is.
You can do what you want,
but few people will get to read it.
Bit of a trade-off, there.
 

ajkjd01

I just have to be faster.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
549
Reaction score
94
Location
in my dreams...
Website
www.addiejking.wordpress.com
Okay, I read extraordinarily fast, so I'm weird in that I like long books. (the longer the books, the fewer I end up buying....or so I keep telling myself) Most of my favorites come in at around 1000 pages apiece.

However that seems to be my limit for length. Anything longer and the book can lose me. I think any longer than that would be a really tough sell as well.
 

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,939
Reaction score
263
Website
www.johnzakour.com
I don't want to be discouraging.
Let me say a couple few things.

It's easy to write long.
Generally, folks who write a tight, disciplined, 100K ms could much more easily spin out a sloppy 160K. Length is not an accomplishment. More often than not, it signals a lack of coherent plot structure.

I think this is a really good point. Lots of times writers get hung up on their own words and think more is better because their words are so special. Therefore they think the more the better.

Often with novels, less is more.

It's an acquired skill to figure how much less is just enough.
 

a_sharp

Somebody give me an A
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
673
Reaction score
126
Location
Portland...in the rain
Agree with Job. Your OP seems to be wordy. That may reflect the way you write prose as well. I fight wordiness all the time. We all do.

The critical eye of the professional reader (agents and editors) will not be forgiving of this flaw. Because we're creative, we tend to fall in love with our words and phrases, as rightly we should. So cutting is painful. However, in a sense it's the only way to be kind to one's ultimate reader, the person who purchases one's book. I have elided whole chapters that took months to create, all because at the last blush, they were superfluous to the story.

Without seeing your work, it's difficult to advise how to pare it down, whether with serial slices or an intense crash diet. Only you can determine whether it suffers word bloat or not.
 

KPfeif

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
15
Website
www.myspace.com
I want to jump in and clarify, though I might be missing the point,

but I thought Michael brought up the self publishing bit as an example that for publishers it could be cheaper to publish one behemoth than three books, not that he'd rather self publish.
 

BrokenSword

keeper of the Flame
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
153
Reaction score
11
Location
Michigan
Website
www.SwordOfShakespeare.com
thank you to everyone

First, I'd like to thank everyone for their time and effort to respond. I've done a lot of reading at AW and I expected much of what you are all saying--and still repect you for taking the time to repeat the info.

It would be pretty hard to get under my skin with seemingly negative response but since I pretty much 'grew up' at one of the nastiest poetry sites out there, I learned to don the thick skin long ago or die in the effort trying to get critiques. So, I understand and take the pertinent info from anyone's response to me. It's always a 'take or toss' with any opinion and I know this.

Most likely, I am bloated with extra words because I do aim to be long-winded. The part that makes me cringe is that I'd need to get this into 1/3 its original form and so, I can only see this as gutting to the extreme and I can honestly say (as I'm sure any author could) that what is being asked re cutting is some of the very same which makes up the character of this storyline. I was taught to be 'unique' and have a delivery which commands attention, not one which will be seen as 'just another to throw on the heap'. In applying this philosophy to prose, much of this has happened. I truly don't have any branches because this whole episode is based on a real story albeit I couched the scenes in history. Sure, I'm close to this--probably too close--but within this lies the 'truths' (as I see it) that make up the integrity of this piece. Cutting dilutes and leaves the mc as just another pinball in the machine, imo.

But that is just the situation I have and I'll take all the advice you've offered to heart. I do have two beta readers, one a more ordinary 'reader' and one who has an eye toward being critical and this helps. I'm getting similar perceptions so far and though there is some thought to 'being too long', nothing that is telling me this storyline is something which would be just as palatable within a 300 page limit. So, I guess the 'write another, get published, negotiate for the monster-novel' advice might be my only avenue.

Btw, I only brought up the printing prices because I wanted to 'eliminate' the idea that maybe this long of a novel would generate no profits. I think I'm down to 'new author/risk potential' and 'a reading audience which doesn't suffer such a long read enough to buy' mentalities.

Many have not really answered the 'poll', though; which would you rather read; 1000+ single unit or 3 smaller separates?

Thanks very much, once again; the air of helpfulness that exists at AW is really nice to experience.

Michael
 

BrokenSword

keeper of the Flame
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
153
Reaction score
11
Location
Michigan
Website
www.SwordOfShakespeare.com
wordy? who, me?

What, me? Too wordy? Nawww, how could you possibly even THINK that!


And I do understand this because poetry is built on a paucity of words. I say this with a caveat; I HAVE taken long poems and stripped them down to their nuts and bolts (yes, even some of MINE!) and for those that do not understand the 'nuts and bolts', the effect was well received. For some though, the 'tone' and ambiance was reduced beneath the level of 'action' and I felt the piece lacked--big time! So, I think (maybe it's just my taste in what I like to read/write) that the minimalist style is not something which can usually fill or gratify the reader who is looking for plot/character depth. I guess I'm one of those; I don't think life is 'tight' and so, when I read I want that laxness without it deviating so far that the author forgot the main point of the story. I've often railed on and on about this 'MTV world' we seem to live in; we want our entertainment quick and lush, more emphasis placed on pace and less on developing less than vertical attributes. It may be that I can't reach this 'modern audience' with such a philosophy...I guess I'll just have to throw something out there and see what actually sticks, hey?

Lessee; now how exactly did I start this 'reply'??? Too long-winded? I beg to differ...er, err!
 

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,939
Reaction score
263
Website
www.johnzakour.com
Many have not really answered the 'poll', though; which would you rather read; 1000+ single unit or 3 smaller separates?

Michael

The later. 1000 page books are just too unwieldy to manage. (Even if the a book has great writing I still don't like reading material that if dropped on my foot could break my foot. Yes, I tend to be a bit clumsy.)
 

Zara Ravenwood

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
94
Reaction score
15
Location
AZ
What about the opposite. I’m thinking of making the first three books in my story a signal volume , largely because the first one is like 68 pages and the second one isn’t likely to be any longer.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
Many have not really answered the 'poll', though; which would you rather read; 1000+ single unit or 3 smaller separates?

Thanks very much, once again; the air of helpfulness that exists at AW is really nice to experience.

Michael

I'd much rather read a long single volume for two reasons. 1. It can be a pain trying to find all three volumes at times. 2. Expense. Three volumes almost certainly means spending more money just to get the same story.
 

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary
Poetry Book Collaborator
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
13,050
Reaction score
3,525
Age
57
Website
www.trumpstump2016.com
I'm breaking mine into a 7-book series, simply because it takes place over the span of about 50,000 years, give or take a millenia.
 

Thekherham

The Alien Writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
552
Reaction score
12
Location
5657 Brežendra Rd., Treskebhar, Te’hănys, Alharhan
Many have not really answered the 'poll', though; which would you rather read; 1000+ single unit or 3 smaller separates?

As long as the book is good I don't care if it's a 100 pages or 3 books of about 333 pages each.

You could always divide the book up into two volumes. That would be about 500 pages each, which would be manageable.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
2,130
Reaction score
186
Location
At the computer
Website
www.daverobinsonwrites.com
If it's one story, I prefer a single volume. However, I don't want to go much over 800-1000 pages tops for that volume; which limits it to something on the order of 250-275K words. That would still be a very hard sell, but could be easier. I also find that when it comes to a unique delivery a little goes a long way. Tightening most of your words will make the character building stand out more in contrast. I'm also going to admit to a bias here. I'm more interested in the story than the writing, which predisposes me towards relatively spare prose.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.