The legality and ethics of referring to other novels

Tornadoboy · Aug 24, 2007

Given the situation my characters find themselves in, I was thinking of working in a joke or two referring to Stephen King's "The Shining", or more specifically to the croquet mallet which Jack Torrance terrorizes everyone with.

I was either just going to have the mallet make a 'cameo' in kind of a sight-gag sort of way, which probably only King fans would pick up on. Or more likely have my male protag pick it up and make a "Wendy" joke without using any Torrance lines directly, then openly refer to the novel and author.

So my question is, is this a bad idea? Either legally or from the standpoint of pure writing ethics?

For the record my WIP is not of the same genre as King's book.

Azraelsbane · Aug 24, 2007

Hmm, not really sure, but I write fantasy and I have a city called Gwahir. Not EXACTLY the same thing, but kinda. I'd be interested in the answer to your question as well.

blacbird · Aug 24, 2007

Tornadoboy said:
which probably only King fans would pick up on.

Therein lies your problem. I don't think you're in any ethical or legal difficulty (e.g., copyright) as long as you don't quote verbatim passages from King's work, but what's the point in making this reference if it's likely to be understood by a small segment of potential readership?

caw

NiennaC · Aug 24, 2007

This conversation has been had a lot around here. As far as I know, the most recent one was here. Where we discussed both the legality and whether or not it's worth making a reference that few people will get. I think the basic conclusion was if it's not important to the plot (IE: people who get it will find it nice, but people who don't get it won't be lost) then it's okay. Anyway, read the thread. (It starts out dicussing referencing movie titles, but branches out into all sorts of pop culture references.)

rugcat · Aug 24, 2007

blacbird said:
Therein lies your problem. I don't think you're in any ethical or legal difficulty (e.g., copyright) as long as you don't quote verbatim passages from King's work, but what's the point in making this reference if it's likely to be understood by a small segment of potential readership?

Because it's fun.

In my current WIP I have a sly reference (an homage, actually) to one of my favorite characters in an old fantasy series. It's not at all integral to anything -- just a one line joke of sorts. I wouild be astonished if more than one reader in a hundred catches it, but I don't care. Someone, somewhere, will get it and laugh.

NiennaC · Aug 24, 2007

rugcat said:
Because it's fun.

In my current WIP I have a sly reference (an homage, actually) to one of my favorite characters in an old fantasy series. It's not at all integral to anything -- just a one line joke of sorts. I wouild be astonished if more than one reader in a hundred catches it, but I don't care. Someone, somewhere, will get it and laugh.

I agree rugcat. It's fun for those people that get it, and for those that don't... :Shrug:

it doesn't seem to be hurting other books with references to pop culture, etc.

IrishScribbler · Aug 24, 2007

My WIP references the works of Fforde, which few will pick up on, but the idea is that my MC escapes into literature, and Fforde's works put his MC literally in literature. In his third Thursday Next book, Thursday is actually hiding out in an unpublished work. This appeals to my MC, so I wrote it.

I did get permission from Mr. Fforde directly to refer to him and his books, and he said that was fine as long as the characters didn't appear or speak (which was never my intent). It was easy for me to get permission from him, but I can see how it would be difficult with an author like King.

Shady Lane · Aug 24, 2007

rugcat said:
Because it's fun.

In my current WIP I have a sly reference (an homage, actually) to one of my favorite characters in an old fantasy series. It's not at all integral to anything -- just a one line joke of sorts. I wouild be astonished if more than one reader in a hundred catches it, but I don't care. Someone, somewhere, will get it and laugh.

Yeah, I have this:

A.J. fanned the back of his neck against the hallway heat. “So how’d the presentation go?”

“Chemistry?”

A.J. smiled. “Yeah, chemistry.”

“I freaked out.”

"Chemistry?...Yeah, chemistry" is from Guys and Dolls. If you know it, cool, you get a smile. If not, you're back to the conversation in one line.

amber_grosjean · Aug 24, 2007

One of my character's favorite books is Gone With the Wind which I stated by name. Something like this can be used as to personality which would move a story along. Also when someone is watching TV, they aren't going to be looking at a blank screen. They will want to know what the person is watching, whether made up or real. Although making a joke about a content in someone's book, famous or not, you might want to get permission from the author first. Something that has been written is protected so cover your butt first just to be safe. King might be flattered, you never know. Then you can add a reference in the back of the book with page title in your book so others know.

Amber

rugcat · Aug 24, 2007

Shady Lane said:
"Chemistry?...Yeah, chemistry" is from Guys and Dolls. If you know it, cool, you get a smile. If not, you're back to the conversation in one line.

Guys and Dolls? How old are you anyway, Shady?

Shady Lane · Aug 24, 2007

rugcat said:
Guys and Dolls? How old are you anyway, Shady?

I know I know I know. But I'm such a geek. Besides, young Marlon Brando?

Hel-lo.

blacbird · Aug 24, 2007

rugcat said:
Because it's fun.

In my current WIP I have a sly reference (an homage, actually) to one of my favorite characters in an old fantasy series. It's not at all integral to anything -- just a one line joke of sorts. I wouild be astonished if more than one reader in a hundred catches it, but I don't care. Someone, somewhere, will get it and laugh.

Sorry, but this kind of conceit always strikes me as self-indulgent.

caw

willietheshakes · Aug 24, 2007

blacbird said:
Sorry, but this kind of conceit always strikes me as self-indulgent.

caw

But as I have long maintained, self-indulgence is better than no indulgence at all.

Same goes for abuse, now that I think about it.

EriRae · Aug 25, 2007

willietheshakes said:
But as I have long maintained, self-indulgence is better than no indulgence at all.

Same goes for abuse, now that I think about it.

Self abuse is better than no abuse at all?

Hmm...

oh...hehehe...I get it. Rep to you

donut · Aug 25, 2007

I got the guys and dolls reference immediately!

Azraelsbane · Aug 25, 2007

Erinmiller77 said:
Self abuse is better than no abuse at all?

Hmm...

oh...hehehe...I get it. Rep to you

I'm giving you a rep for being slow at getting that...

Tasmin21 · Aug 25, 2007

Besides, young Marlon Brando?

Hel-lo.

I have nothing useful to offer the conversation, except to second this motion.

And as I think about it, my MC makes references to Star Wars at one point, just a flip comment. "A Jedi craves not these things" I suppose, if I ever sell the silly thing, the agent/editor will kick my butt if it's not appropriate.

Azraelsbane · Aug 25, 2007

Tasmin21 said:
I have nothing useful to offer the conversation, except to second this motion.

And as I think about it, my MC makes references to Star Wars at one point, just a flip comment. "A Jedi craves not these things" I suppose, if I ever sell the silly thing, the agent/editor will kick my butt if it's not appropriate.

Are there really people out there who don't know what a jedi is? *boggle* My world view is spinning out of control!

Will Lavender · Aug 25, 2007

blacbird said:
Sorry, but this kind of conceit always strikes me as self-indulgent.

caw

I don't know why. Does a reader have to get EVERY in-joke or side reference in a book? If so, how would one ever read...I don't know...P.G. Wodehouse.

In my novel, I have many references to Paul Auster's City of Glass. Why? Because I feel it was a good mirror to the main plot. I mention it often, quote from it, and basically use it as a trope. I'd like to think it enhances the main action rather than takes away from it.

John Ashberry said once that he ended one of his book-length poems with an obscure German word. He admitted that nobody would know that word because it had been dead for a half-century. But he liked the idea of a reader having to put down his book and go to a German dictionary immediately upon finishing.

Maybe someone who reads my novel will also read Auster. You never know.

rugcat · Aug 25, 2007

blacbird said:
Sorry, but this kind of conceit always strikes me as self-indulgent.

Ahh, but you'd never get it.

Besides, I had to give up french fries.

The legality and ethics of referring to other novels

Tornadoboy

I bite

Azraelsbane

Agony is defeat

blacbird

NiennaC

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

NiennaC

IrishScribbler

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

amber_grosjean

AW Addict

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

blacbird

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

EriRae

:P

donut

fame-seeking floozy

Azraelsbane

Agony is defeat

Tasmin21

They will come from below...

Azraelsbane

Agony is defeat

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

rugcat

Lost in the Fog