Being Cliche in Fantasy

NiennaC · Aug 15, 2007

We've seen a lot of lists on this board about cliche fantasy. I've started noticing tons of people going down those lists and then going to their WIP and taking out anything that was on the list they read. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think that's necessarily the best idea.

I mean, after all, in the end it's how you tell the story. Of course, I do agree that if you've got a story about a lowly, humble farmer, whose secretly the king, and who accepts his heritage and must lead his troops against an ancient evil, you might have some tweaking to do. But even THEN, if it's done well and the characters are original, it could still be a good read, I think.

After all, Harry Potter boils down to the ancient good vs. evil plot, so....

I'm just wondering if people are starting to put too much stock in those cliche lists, instead of just having fun with them? (which I think, was their original intent).

Just my humble $.02.

Chasing the Horizon · Aug 15, 2007

When asked what I write I usually say "It's fantasy, with dragons!" Does it sound like I care whether I'm considered cliché?

I use fairly cliché plots, and put my energy into character and world building. Unique people in a unique place, doing something you've seen done a hundred times before, in their own unique way. *shrug* All the best ideas have already been taken, so I'll just help myself to the cliché trough.

RG570 · Aug 15, 2007

It's a strange phenomenon, I think. These self-proclaimed experts who have websites and blogs and spend exhaustive hours tabulating these stupid lists. You don't see much of this kind of thing outside fantasy.

I think it shows what can happen if you restrict yourself to reading only one type of story, rather than what authors ought to be writing. This is the reader's problem, not one for writers.

I mean come on. The same list will say you can't have a rich nobleman as the hero, then say it's cliche if you make the hero a farmer. It's utterly ridiculous.

Then you have a reading public who is dead-set against experimental writing and non-traditional narratives. Then you see that everything on these cliche lists are what's still being put out by all the big publishers.

So you can't take these obviously bored but unadventurous critics seriously.

Pila · Aug 15, 2007

It's very nearly impossible to avoid cliches. I mean, when you think about it, everything has been done before in the basic sense. There is hardly anything purely original anymore. You have to embrace the cliches, make them yours. Spend less time worrying about 'oh my goodness, but it's been DONE before!' and spend more time fleshing out fantastic characters and worlds.

TheIT · Aug 15, 2007

Whenever I see people asking questions like "Should I do <whatever>?" in their writing, my gut instinct is to stand up and shout, "Yes! The answer is always yes. Don't be afraid to experiment."

Is the <whatever> something which interests you? Does it spark something in your writing? Is it fun? Then go for it.

So what if someone else might think it's a cliche? Odds are, if you start with a cliche, you'll find your way to something which isn't. Everyone puts their own stamp on ideas. If you never try writing it, you'll never know what you might have created.

And for a beginning writer, playing with a cliche might be just the key to unlock a unique story. A cliche is comfortable, and so can give you a safe place to work on the craft of story telling.

From my own experience, my fantasy universe started out as almost a stock D & D world. As I wrote, created characters and world-built, it evolved into something which is my own.

Wintermule · Aug 17, 2007

It's very nearly impossible to avoid cliches. I mean, when you think about it, everything has been done before in the basic sense. There is hardly anything purely original anymore. You have to embrace the cliches, make them yours. Spend less time worrying about 'oh my goodness, but it's been DONE before!' and spend more time fleshing out fantastic characters and worlds.

There's a difference between being unoriginal and cliche...and why do people always say 'in the basic sense'? Yes, in the basic sense, good versus evil, man versus man, the basic plots. And they usually say it when people aren't talking about the basic sense. There is a difference between farm boy ruled by destiny and having a villian; a difference between Tolkien elves and dwarves and the main character being a human.

Here's a plot for ya:

Lazy old man with arthritis and kyphosis finds a dragon egg, thinks it's a watermelon. He keeps it in his freezer so he can later make it into a watermelon margarita. The dragon hatches and freezes to death. The old man uses it as a pinata. In the end, it turns out everyone were actually frogs that could spit acid.

I win.

~grace~ · Aug 17, 2007

TheIT said:
So what if someone else might think it's a cliche? Odds are, if you start with a cliche, you'll find your way to something which isn't. Everyone puts their own stamp on ideas. If you never try writing it, you'll never know what you might have created.

And for a beginning writer, playing with a cliche might be just the key to unlock a unique story...

I concur wholeheartedly.

The first "novel-like" thing I wrote was basically a plagiarism of Patricia C. Wrede's Enchanted Forest Chronicles. Next I wrote something that began as a half-plagiarism of Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar books (I cleverly used dragons instead of white horse things). Both were unpublishable, obviously, and I wasn't writing them to publish, but both projects made me a stronger writer and gave me a better understanding of how story and plot work.

Plagiarism is obviously a different animal than cliche, but what I'm trying to say is that playing with the standards, the "what-came-before," helps a writer develop into something new. If I'd been saying to myself "No! You can't use cliches! Be original!" my writing in that stage would have been stunted and I wouldn't have been able to master the craft as much as (I think) I have.

Now of course I am trying to write original stories. That said, I don't make a concerted effort to avoid or embrace cliches; I write what the story demands, as well as I can.

JimmyB27 · Aug 17, 2007

TheIT said:
And for a beginning writer, playing with a cliche might be just the key to unlock a unique story. A cliche is comfortable, and so can give you a safe place to work on the craft of story telling.

From my own experience, my fantasy universe started out as almost a stock D & D world. As I wrote, created characters and world-built, it evolved into something which is my own.

This is exactly what happened to me. I've kept some of the cliche-ish stuff, MC is a half-elf, there's fireball magic and some other stuff, but I think I've put my own spin on most of it.

oscuridad · Aug 17, 2007

auntybug said:
turns out Aragon is a midevil Star Wars....

Oh yes - the character of Aragorn was clearly written after Tolkien went to a clairvoyant who showed him a bit of Star Wars in her crystal ball and he thought 'hey, I could use that...'
and what the hell is 'midevil'? Do you spell like this when you write?
Maybe you should get a dictionary, or dikshonarry, if you prefer.

~grace~ · Aug 17, 2007

oscuridad said:
Oh yes - the character of Aragorn was clearly written after Tolkien went to a clairvoyant who showed him a bit of Star Wars in her crystal ball and he thought 'hey, I could use that...'
and what the hell is 'midevil'? Do you spell like this when you write?
Maybe you should get a dictionary, or dikshonarry, if you prefer.

I'm going to guess auntybug meant Eragon...I couldn't stand to read after the first book, so I am unable to judge it's "star warsness," but I've seen that mistake a lot.

and I don't know what midevil is, but it sounds kinda cool. not like really evil, or slightly evil, but, y'know, midevil.

"How do you feel today, Emperor Badpants?"
"Oh, midevil. I'll only kill two peasants, I think."

oscuridad · Aug 17, 2007

alternatefish said:
I'm going to guess auntybug meant Eragon...I couldn't stand to read after the first book, so I am unable to judge it's "star warsness," but I've seen that mistake a lot.

that makes a lot more sense

alternatefish said:
and I don't know what midevil is, but it sounds kinda cool. not like really evil, or slightly evil, but, y'know, midevil.

"How do you feel today, Emperor Badpants?"
"Oh, midevil. I'll only kill two peasants, I think."

I like this

PinkUnicorn · Jan 29, 2008

one of the good things about cliches is that they are tried and true and you know there well always be fans for them no matter how often you see them.

for me, I think cliches make for good writing exercises... I love them and trying to find new ways to use them

Metaphor · Feb 24, 2008

Well TBH, I don't see why quite so many people are set against cliches.

As a reader I love the traditional plot - that's what I think of as the "fantasy" genre. Of course, each story has it's own different and unique features which mark it out as "its own", but I don't mind cliched ideas - if I like reading a certain style, I won't stop just because it's been written before - I'll try and find more like it.

That means that in my writing I don't try to avoid cliches - thus not being able to write the story I want to write - I just put a spin on them, make them a little different and exciting. When you think about it, most things have been done before.

Now I know I'll probably get shot down for this, going against the general concensus and all, but that's just my humble opinion. Some will probably say it's because I'm a teenager, not mature or whatever, but I think that it's simply a matter of what sort of story I like.

Popimoore

Zelenka · Feb 24, 2008

TheIT said:
And for a beginning writer, playing with a cliche might be just the key to unlock a unique story. A cliche is comfortable, and so can give you a safe place to work on the craft of story telling.

Not just the beginning writer either - my current WIP is basically taking a cliche, the whole good vs evil battle against the evilest villain / dark lord in the land sort of thing and twisting it. It was a deliberate move because I hadn't ever seen this take on the 'cliche' and I figured it'd be pretty fun to work on.

My first fantasy world though was more or less a take off of Middle-earth with some Terry Pratchett-style humour thrown in. Then the more I read, the less I wanted to just do the same thing, but more to play with those well-used themes and plots to make something of my own.

Ervin · Feb 24, 2008

I have to agree, I think people too often think that they have solved their cliche problem by simply replacing a few features. In my opinion you should either write a good cliche that is worth reading no matter how cliche it is, or just ride a completely different train of thought from other stories. If you don't want to be cliche, in my opinion you need to build a completely different world.

Instead of turning green into yellow-green, turn green into red. Otherwise make a very good green.

Smiling Ted · Feb 25, 2008

I've been using all the great clichés in my fantasy!
Unfortunately, I found the wrong cliché list on the Internet, and, well - they're all the great Romantic Comedy clichés.

The prince and the evil wizard Meet Cute.
The farm boy has a sassy, boozy best friend who sleeps with all the wrong goblins.
The perky slave girl is a gossip scribe for the town crier, a smartly dressed Elf on the wrong side of 40,000.
The noble barbarian barely survives his trial by Bad Date montage....

I think it could be a great Kate Hudson/Arnold Schwarzenegger vehicle. Those two have been trying to work together for years.

Higgins · Feb 25, 2008

Ervin said:
I have to agree, I think people too often think that they have solved their cliche problem by simply replacing a few features. In my opinion you should either write a good cliche that is worth reading no matter how cliche it is, or just ride a completely different train of thought from other stories. If you don't want to be cliche, in my opinion you need to build a completely different world.

Instead of turning green into yellow-green, turn green into red. Otherwise make a very good green.

The cliche problem is that if you actually think in cliches, your imagination is pretty limited. It's fine if you think a situation through and come up with a cliche...but you should have more than cliches to work with in your head, at least to start with....

Sassee · Feb 25, 2008

I like familiarity in reading and writing. Embrace the cliches!

Straka · Feb 25, 2008

on a long enough timeline, everything will be cliche

mmurphy · Feb 25, 2008

Sassee said:
I like familiarity in reading and writing. Embrace the cliches!

I agree. I don't like reading a page and half description of a race or culture only to figure out their dwarves. If you want dwarves, make 'em dwarves, not cave dwelling A'aur'ts.

mscelina · Feb 25, 2008

This little tidbit from a review I got recently might help with the issue--

What makes this tale rise high on the tide, at least for this reader - an admitted fantasy purist - is two-fold. Most importantly, Celina Summers maintains supreme control of an archetypal fantasy story structure while making the tale fresh and engaging enough for even the most diehard fantasy reader. She weaves a tale that is both familiar and unexpected; because she remains so true to the genre, readers can trust her to lead them to explore untried paths in a familiar fantasy landscape.

Nowhere in this is the word 'cliche' mentioned. Instead the reviewer (who is a reading and literacy PhD at Alabama A&M) refers to the fantasy archetype. The fantasy archetype is one that has been used successfully for millennia. *shrug* what's the point of using some crack-smoking sort of 'new' plotline that leaves your reader saying, "Huh?" (and yes, I've read some of those)

The trick is to pick and choose what you use. Just because another, older writer used a specific type of character successfully is no reason you can't. Political turmoil and war happen in biographies, histories, and literary fiction to name a few. Why discard them?

Fantasy writers think waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much about the cliches. Instead of agonizing over a list that is ONE PERSON'S TASTE, we should just write the stories as they come out and to blazes with the lot of them.

Higgins · Feb 25, 2008

mmurphy said:
I agree. I don't like reading a page and half description of a race or culture only to figure out their dwarves. If you want dwarves, make 'em dwarves, not cave dwelling A'aur'ts.

This is in fact the basic problem with cliches: they waste the reader's time by showing them stuff they have already seen dozens of times. If you are going to bother writing a story...why have anything remotely like Tolkienian creatures in it unless you are going to present them in an engaging new way? In my opinion, cliches are by definition just plain bad from every possible point of view. For example: are they really a short-hand easy way to engage the reader? Isn't the reader just as likely to slide right on by the cliches in search of some bite or other sensation to the story? Will they really linger lovingly over yet another bunch of dwarves? Maybe some fantasy readers will...and that just shows how bad cliches are for fantasy as a genre.

mscelina · Feb 25, 2008

there is a difference between cliche and archetype. You have to be able to separate the two.

Higgins · Feb 25, 2008

mscelina said:
there is a difference between cliche and archetype. You have to be able to separate the two.

Ideally you can tell an archtype from a cliche. Everybody for example should be able to provide quite a few cliches to go with the bare, archetypical idea of "Goddess"...but if you look at how Goddesses are depicted in the earliest classical texts -- for example Homer -- what you find is pure literary invention. You don't find cliches or archtypical situations at all. How can that possibly be? Well...the reason is that good literary invention trumps archetypes and cliches and gives you something ever new and immediate and emotional and true and vibrant and living and inspiring. Why waste time on archetypes and cliches if you can have all that?

mscelina · Feb 25, 2008

Oh really? Most of the Greco-Roman pantheon was assimilated from earlier cultures, you know.

An inventive writer can take any archetype and twist it to their own.

Being Cliche in Fantasy

NiennaC

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

RG570

Pila

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Wintermule

~grace~

the good old days

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

oscuridad

~grace~

the good old days

oscuridad

PinkUnicorn

Tossing Elves in bed with Unicorns

Metaphor

twiftie

Zelenka

Going home!

Ervin

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

Higgins

Sassee

Momma Wolf

Straka

Bored Fanatic

mmurphy

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Higgins

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Higgins

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you