Consecutive Scenes With Time Transitions ?

John61480 · Aug 12, 2007

I've got a problem with leaps of time between scenes and I'm not quite sure if this is a smart thing to do. I'm not talking about gaps of hours or days. I'm talking many years too.

What I have is a story progress that begins with a setup of 10 scenes. These ten scenes have some time transition, as well. But the following 6 basically follow the MC as he grows up in a new life and ends at the age where he'll be at for the rest of the story, which I estimate is another 52 scenes.

My worry is that despite how big of a word count I could write each of these six scenes by, I have a feeling that in a seamless read, it would become confusing. I know that at the beginning of each scene, I would have to make it clear about the transition of time. But because there are gaps of only a few hours after a few of the scenes before a transition of a few years, the reader may forget and get confused in one of those new scenes. For example (from the illustrated scene map at the bottom of the post), the reader reads the fourth scene of the year of the high school graduation. It transition to a later that evening, which could be smooth for the reader. But in the following scene after, he is in his early twenties. This is an example of what I'm worried about. Too many great leaps in time.

I am not familiar with writing stuff like this where someone grows up. I consider each of these important developments to have a key to the story. My first amateur inclination was to write these so it would explain why his family is the way it is. I quickly moved away from that idea and thought of ways to incorporate the actual plot with set pieces and things to back up each solid moment where he is at in life for later story reinforcement.

Does length of the scene have impact as to the jarring effect of moving from one time then to another? Or is there another angle I'm completely missing about when it come to a character timeline. I really dislike the idea of missing the main character's earlier years and showing a dysfunctional family with no reason of it. Unless this is how I should be approaching it. The reason for the dislike is because the story doesn't start with him living in a dysfunctional family. So the reader can't accept the situation as is. The first ten scenes illustrate a different aspect of the main character's development. Or is the situation just fine so long as it is written good enough to engage the reader?

-deleted

c.e.lawson · Aug 12, 2007

Ooh, this is a great question for me because my character ages in my novel as well. My first chapter has three scenes in it, and in all three she is five years old and only 1 day passes. The second chapter skips to 10 years ahead. Then the rest of the story will have her age from 15 to probably late twenties. I've only completed two chapters and have the basic story arc plotted out, but I've been wondering about this skipping years thing myself. The way I solved it so far is to transition to a new age with a new CHAPTER, not simply a new scene. And of course I will make some reference to her age that is naturally in the context of the story, in the beginning of each chapter where she's aged.

I look forward to hearing what everyone else says about this. Good luck with your story!

c.e.

Azraelsbane · Aug 12, 2007

I, too, have a lot of time jumps in my novels. Some chapters are days, some years, and one is actually a few million years (oops). I think the big thing is to simply make sure the reader knows that some stretch of time has passed. It doesn't have to necessarily be "Ten years later...blah blah blah..." In my opinion, the more subtle, the better.

Rhea L · Aug 12, 2007

Show the passage of time through the circumstances surrounding the character. Choose key information about each of the stages of his life that you're so inclined to put at the beginning of the book (which I wouldn't - this, as I've gathered from your post, is not the PLOT, and that's what your readers will want most) and describe, instead of stating. Starting the scene with a short description of his playmates with running noses stomping their feet in a sandbox will give your readers the idea of how old he is. Showing him studying for exams and making arrangements to go for a beer after classes will give them the idea of college. So on, so forth - you get the idea.

Obviously, I don't know your story -- but why not just start the story at the point where something interesting actually *happens*? Trust your readers - most of them will be totally fine if, for example, they'll read a story that starts with your character leaving his dysfunctional home in secrecy just past midnight, heartbroken and embittered by the realization that it didn't use to be that way? (Improvising here).

The less backstory at the beginning of your novel, the better. Backstory is not plot. It's the actual trouble that's interesting (to paraphrase J. Burroway

)

Hope that helps.

Danger Jane · Aug 12, 2007

of course, if it's NOT backstory, and the jumps in time--and therefore maturity--are that large, I bet your readers will be able to tell.

You could always put a date at the top of the scene.

But if you want it to be clear without an indicator like that, you'll have to work really hard to differentiate between the voice of an eight year old and that of a twelve year old and that of an eighteen year old. Also to set the scene. And for the one that's just a week later, I'd recommend slipping in a "last week..." in there somewhere because an eight year old's thoughts aren't that much different from a nine-year-old's.

Wolvel · Aug 12, 2007

Simple, just write it out in the best way that makes sense to you then go back and read it.

If it does not make sense in that form then you need to try another angle or start the story at a later timeline.

Garpy · Aug 13, 2007

Just a thought...maybe your story really starts when your character has grown up? And that these early-years chapters are only there to establish something about your character that in later years is relevant.

If that's the case, I'd suggest you just start your tale in the present, and if you desperately need to establish the germination in childhood of some character trait, there's no reason why you can't quickly dip back into the past and show the event.

Bufty · Aug 13, 2007

John, I'm not going to attempt to follow everything you said above, but my twopenneth is make absolutely sure that what you think is information the reader must have is not simply information you need to know in order to write the story.

Check those early scenes contain vital information that needs to be followed in detail by the reader. In other words they justify their inclusion as scenes and are not simply adding unnecessarily detailed background of which you, as the writer, happen to be aware.

Folk don't need much to put 2 and 2 together to get 4.

JanDarby · Aug 13, 2007

Go ahead and write it. It will help you to know the character inside and out. It's too early now to second-guess yourself. Just do it, or you'll never get it written.

But when you do revisions, you'll realize it's not part of the story. It's classic backstory. In the next draft, figure out what the inciting event is -- the latest thing in the story "now" that causes the character to make the decision that sets him irrevocably on the path to the story's resolution (and it's not what happened in his childhood, b/c he hasn't acted on those events until now; what makes him act now?). Then cut everything before the inciting event of the story.

Put the cut text into its own file, and then when something happens in the story "now" that's affected by one of those early scenes, you can feed in a line or two in the character's POV that reflects his memory of what happened then or how it affected him. For example (and this is cliche, just an example), if an early scene was him being bitten by a dog, and developing a lifelong fear of dogs, and we skip to the story now, where he's trying to get to his dream job interview, but there's this seeing-eye dog flopped in front of the entrance, and he freezes, because he just can't go past that dog, he'd never been able to get within fifty or a hundred feet of a dog since he was bitten at age five. And then show what lengths he'll go to, to get around the dog or to somehow salvage the interview that he's going to be late for. Because, really, that's all the reader needs to know about the backstory -- that something happened, and it caused the character's reaction to a certain stimulus in the story now. The reader doesn't need to see the whole backstory played out (shown vs. told; sometimes telling, when at the right moment and filtered through a character's pov, is actually the better thing to do).

But don't worry about this for the first draft. It sounds like you need to write it, to get it out of your system and really get your brain wrapped around it. That's seen a lot among very successful authors. They think through words, through scenes, and it's not clear in their heads until they've written it. Not just thought about it or outlined it, but actually written the scene. It's not wasted time or effort; it's just part of the process, and if (emphasis on "if" -- you'll have to see if it is or not, and that takes time and multiple manuscripts) that is your process, you won't be able to do justice to the character until you've written out those scenes.

Trust your process. Just write. And then edit mercilessly.

JD, a line-editing tyrant.

NicoleMD · Aug 13, 2007

I just read THE WONDER SPOT which did this very thing, and I think it worked well. It gave the story a lot more depth than if it would have started during the MC's adult years.

It was a little jarring when she was suddenly an adult, since I guess I thought that the story was going to be YA, but I picked up quickly.

Trust your readers and do what works.

Nicole

GeorgeK · Aug 13, 2007

As long as there's a date or change in chapter or at least a series of asterisks, the reader should be able to figure out the time change. But within the first sentence or in a chapter title, I'd make it clear for the reader. The thing you don't want is for them to get 5 pages into a section before realizing that it is a flashback or a different time period

Stuart Clark · Aug 13, 2007

GeorgeK said:
As long as there's a date or change in chapter or at least a series of asterisks, the reader should be able to figure out the time change. But within the first sentence or in a chapter title, I'd make it clear for the reader. The thing you don't want is for them to get 5 pages into a section before realizing that it is a flashback or a different time period

I agree, breaking things up with asterisks will work, as long as your writing makes it clear which time period you're in. Credit your readers with some intelligence. I'm sure they'll figure it out.

Whilst it's not time differences I deal with, I usually have four or five story threads going along at any one time which I jump around in. An asterisk between segments works for me.

John61480 · Aug 13, 2007

Do you think short and choppy scenes is what kills the transition? I keep coming back to scene length as the culprit. I figure if every one of these transitions is made up of 1,250 - 2,000 words, that could be a very short read. On the other hand, I know that 2,000 words is a heck of a lot to write in one sitting, and seems to take a long time to write. But when I do manuscript reading, these 1,000 words at a time seem to be really small. You only have to look over in the Share Your Work board here to realize how big 1,250 words is! But from what I read in a writing book by Jack M. Bickham, he mentions that seems to be an average. I used to try to write 2,000 words for every chapter! Talk about confusing and detrimental to the learning process.

I know making the transition clear at the beginning is a must. Someone mentioned using an asterisk. Is that legal in a manuscript formatting procedure? How about using bold text for that single transition sentence?

It would be easy to label a chapter, but how about a scene?

These are about all I can think of. But I keep coming back to length and content of transitions. I figure the longer a reader is immersed in that single transition, the more it will become "familiar" before the next. Wouldn't this be how a difference is made in the reader's mind? Maybe the opposite can hold true as well. The shorter the content of the transition, the easier it is to move to the next until a greater focus is applied.

And of course, there is always the re-telling of things by the back story or the actual cutting of this stuff to get on with the story...

Stuart Clark · Aug 13, 2007

John61480 said:
Do you think short and choppy scenes is what kills the transition? I keep coming back to scene length as the culprit.

I think scene length is determined by the scene. If the scene calls for a short scene, write a short scene, if it requires something longer, then write whatever length is called for.

John61480 said:
I know making the transition clear at the beginning is a must. Someone mentioned using an asterisk. Is that legal in a manuscript formatting procedure? How about using bold text for that single transition sentence?

Have some confidence in your writing. I would think there would be external factors going on around your main character which would make it obvious to the reader which time frame you are in. Again, credit your audience with some intelligence - if you spell it out to them, it's going to be a chore to read and they're most likely going to be bored and/or offended. No need to beat people over the head with stuff - they'll all be screaming "Enough already! We get it!"

John61480 said:
It would be easy to label a chapter, but how about a scene?

Why not? Who says you can't do it?

John61480 said:
These are about all I can think of. But I keep coming back to length and content of transitions. I figure the longer a reader is immersed in that single transition, the more it will become "familiar" before the next. Wouldn't this be how a difference is made in the reader's mind? Maybe the opposite can hold true as well. The shorter the content of the transition, the easier it is to move to the next until a greater focus is applied.

I disagree - setting, events, context. The length of the transition is arbitrary.

John61480 said:
And of course, there is always the re-telling of things by the back story or the actual cutting of this stuff to get on with the story...

If you can actually cut this stuff to get on with the story then do it. Golden first rule - cut anything that doesn't move the story along.

Hope that's helpful.

John61480 · Aug 13, 2007

I appreciate the thorough response Stuart.

Thank you.

I think scene length is determined by the scene. If the scene calls for a short scene, write a short scene, if it requires something longer, then write whatever length is called for...Stuart Clark

I have a minimum amount that I will be setting for myself in this WIP. That will be about 1,250 words. On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all worried if I wrote a scene shorter than 1,000 words.

But you're right, if the scene needs to be big or small, than so be it.

I would think there would be external factors going on around your main character which would make it obvious to the reader which time frame you are in. Again, credit your audience with some intelligence - if you spell it out to them, it's going to be a chore to read and they're most likely going to be bored and/or offended. No need to beat people over the head with stuff - they'll all be screaming "Enough already! We get it!"

This caught my attention. I don't know how to respond to this one. I don't think I want to. It's a good one.

Have some confidence in your writing.

I'm still in the learning process. I try to keep myself motivated by taking a walk and reflecting on the shape the work is taking. I don't look at the progress, because I get depressed things aren't happening fast enough. I don't like being a slow idea thinker, slow outliner, and then finally a painfully slow writer. I think this can really test one's patience with their work.

Stuart Clark · Aug 13, 2007

John61480 said:
I'm still in the learning process. I try to keep myself motivated by taking a walk and reflecting on the shape the work is taking. I don't look at the progress, because I get depressed things aren't happening fast enough. I don't like being a slow idea thinker, slow outliner, and then finally a painfully slow writer. I think this can really test one's patience with their work.

Hey, we're all still in the learning process. That's why we're all here. That's why they call writing a craft. You learn a craft as you go along.

There's a certain self-confidence, almost arrogance, about writing. You hope that other people will read your work and enjoy it - and to do that, you have to write something that resonates with them. Now considering that the only thing you have to draw on is your own emotions and experiences (and maybe some outside research) - to resonate with your audience you have to assume that the characters you write about with all their qualities and foibles, are characters that your audience can identify with. I think that's a big fear - that the qualities you project on to your characters which are essentially qualities that come from you will not resonate with other people. I used to worry about that a lot. Now I don't - I make the assumption that people are generally quite a lot alike - and I don't worry about it.

It sounds to me John like you are over thinking this a bit too much and letting your doubts hold you back. Put those doubts to one side, write the story, jump around in all the different time frames and see how it works. You may find just from writing it that ideas come to you on how better to flesh it out or make those transitions clear. Jumping around may not work, and that's fine, if nothing else it will give you a better idea of how to move forward.

Get some beta readers. Have some trusted friends read your work and give you HONEST feedback. "Yeah, I thought it was good" is not honest feedback.

Try and write something every day. Life gets in the way, I know, but even if it's just a sentence - it keeps you in that groove and keeps the creative juices going.

Finally, don't take my word as gospel. I'm just another person on the boards throwing ideas around in the hope that something sticks (or resonates). Trust me, a lot of what I throw around sticks - and that's not always a good thing!

blacbird · Aug 13, 2007

Rhea L said:
Show the passage of time through the circumstances surrounding the character.

Really good answer. Read Rhea's entire post.

caw

John61480 · Aug 14, 2007

Originally Posted by Rhea L
Show the passage of time through the circumstances surrounding the character.

Really good answer. Read Rhea's entire post.

caw

..blacbird

I'm going to try to incorporate this. By second guessing myself, the #1 thing that I'm going to begin doing is adding an actual date or time somehow. The statement of the date or time would have be be precise. I think this will be a bold statement to the transition as opposed to: "...many years later...while the MC is doing this...and so on." By this transition example, I figure if a reader isn't totally focused in the reading, this could be glanced over easily because of the vagueness. Many years later, something is happening which draws the attention away from the fact that a transition occurred and then finally they're in the middle of a circumstance. That vague transition of many years later got swept up in a tide of info. So I consider adding a date or some type of time in the first sentence as a way to make things as obvious as an asterisk or bold text. Even if the time is stated in such a mundane way like the first example: "...at the age of eight years old..." or "...in his seventh grade year...and so on." This could make it a marker knowing, okay, eight years old? Hmm, I thought I was reading about an adult? This could be a bit of a stumble for the reader, but later it could correct itself. The circumstances will help reinforce the transition. A scene with eight year old stuff going on would make it clear for the next transition, when the age changes or if it is within a few years for a more seamless gap of time.

It sounds to me John like you are over thinking this a bit too much and letting your doubts hold you back...stuart clark

Oh yeah. I agree with this one. I've been told this more than once here on AW. I don't plan to be held back from writing a WIP because of one writing dilemma such as this. As I mentioned, I'm slow. I plan to sit with this developing outline for awhile, making sure I don't have any loose ends with story logic. I have a lot of problems with this. When I'm ready for the first draft, it will be even slower. I don't plan to edit as I go, so that's not the cause. It's just the way things turn out.

On a similar note, this has given me another pointer in writing: over thinking too much story. I tend to figure out angles to explore in the writing, which there are numerous in my WIP that I can be excited about. But at the beginning of August, I read a few on-line excerpts of works by authors, and realized how much of the story set-ups I exactly digested during the reading. This included setting, symbolisms, set-pieces, thoughts, coincidences of previous sentences to a story point in an effort for symbolism (yea, cheesy I know), etc.

Most of it is glanced at and not thought of unless boldly stated of its significance in a show and tell. Which is what I interpreted. I don't try solving puzzles in my brain while reading a book. So I agree, everything has to be spelled out for the reader. After these few days of thinking about it, I'm under the assumption that spelling out an actual date and time for a transition should be helpful. I know if this is done incorrectly, it could lead to a drowning confusion. The reader will be in the middle of the scene wondering what in the hell just happened.

Put those doubts to one side, write the story, jump around in all the different time frames and see how it works.

Whether I like it or not, I'll have to do this. After all is said and done in another 6 months, maybe I'll have another lesson from this that I can look back on when working on another project. Now I consider that slow and painful.

Thanks.

Rhea L · Aug 14, 2007

John61480 said:
Even if the time is stated in such a mundane way like the first example: "...at the age of eight years old..." or "...in his seventh grade year...and so on."

Thanks.

But that's a summary. Nobody wants to read your MC's biography without knowing *why* they care. If you incorporate the important bits of the past in the story proper, like referring back to past events because something the MC encounters triggers his memory of it, then it doesn't or at least shouldn't feel like reading someone's curriculum vitae. That kind of information should be given to the reader when that reader is already emotionally involved in the story, and understands *why* you're mentioning that, *why* the childhood/adolescence/whatever matter that much.

You're welcome.

Bufty · Aug 14, 2007

John, why not just write the darned thing as it comes?

If you can go into this detail on the Board you must be going crackers in your room and I doubt we will come up with any solution you haven't already considered and presumably rejected, other than the obvious one:-

The manuscript will need editing once you've finished. That's the point at which to decide whether these 'necessary opening scenes' are either 'necessary' or must be 'necessary opening scenes'.

A preferable solution may well occur to you as you write, or during edit.

Good luck.

John61480 · Aug 14, 2007

John, why not just write the darned thing as it comes?...Bufty

Will do.

Thanks guys. Thanks Rhea.

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