Erotica/Literary Erotica

Literotica would be the old Victorian era stuff. I can't think of any names right now. Or, perhaps, the works of de Sade. There's an anthology collection called Herotica or something, I believe.

The differences, to me, are that literotica doesn't promise a happy ending, and seems to still gloss over some of the nitty gritty that erotica seems to embrace. YMMV...

I would assume anything that counst as literature, and erotica? (As they are variously defined).

I would consider Suzy Bright's anthologies to be literary erotica, and also some of the anthologies that Virgin Books publishes.

But it's really not about the label. It's about the publisher's and the readers' expectations, and it's a lot more subtle and diverse than a label could ever capture.

Check out erotica readers & writers site (I can never remember the url -- google "erotica readers" and you'll find it) and start reading through the archives. Or cleansheets.com. Or fishnetmag.com.

The erotica readers site has authors' resources, where you can read publishers' guidelines, and a lot of them will mention existing books that are their ideals, and you can read excerpts (or, what I'd suggest, is to get a sampling and read them all). If you read a bunch of them, you'll get a feel for what the various publishers are looking for, and where your voice would fit. And the best way -- the only way, really -- to figure that out is just to go ahead and read a bunch of the best examples from your potential markets.

I did that when I was starting out, and it didn't take me long to figure out that my stuff would fit in with certain publishers and not with others. That way, I wasn't wasting a lot of time sending stuff to people who wouldn't even consider it.

JD

Literary Erotica Issues

dolores haze said:

I think I understand the difference, but still not sure.

... The point of the story is that a couple who are extremely compatible in the bedroom, are not necessarily compatible out of it. A friend who reads a lot of erotica beta-read it for me, and felt it would be considered more lit. erotica than anything else, but way too much gratuitous sex for mainstream.

So too literary for erotica + too erotic for mainstream = no market?
I was considering fleshing it out into a novella, but won't bother if there's no market...

What do you think? Can the project entirely? I'm way too lazy to work on something I haven't a hope of selling.

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I should take a lesson from you. My novel fits in that land of literary erotica where you wisely wonder, "= no market." I'm in my second year of searching for an agent or publisher and finding erotica publishers think it too literary and literary publishers too erotic. All feedback points to well written, structurally sound, but thin market.

Still, I search onward believing, probably foolishly, that the erotic is a wondrous vehicle to literary themes around the "human condition." And your post stirs my faint, fond hope your couple compatible in one sphere but not another might yet make a literary journey because, only, you want them to. I think your start is excellent: there is richness behind the issue of love well done in bed but not in life.

Once upon a time, literary and erotica, as then defined, dove into the market with a big splash and rumble, tantalizing readers. Think Grove Press (Barney Rosset is now 83, I think) and noise around publication of Lady Chatterley's Lover, Tropic of Cancer, Naked Lunch. Jessss, even Joyce's Ulysses, that most mind bending, tone rich, metaphoric, literary of literary novels was it its day so "erotic" it took a trial to bring it to US shores. Ah well, we can hope the pendulum will again swing to a time when an audience arises seeking the artful blend of brains and loins.


Another

Another said:

I should take a lesson from you. My novel fits in that land of literary erotica where you wisely wonder, "= no market." I'm in my second year of searching for an agent or publisher and finding erotica publishers think it too literary and literary publishers too erotic. All feedback points to well written, structurally sound, but thin market.

Still, I search onward believing, probably foolishly, that the erotic is a wondrous vehicle to literary themes around the "human condition." And your post stirs my faint, fond hope your couple compatible in one sphere but not another might yet make a literary journey because, only, you want them to. I think your start is excellent: there is richness behind the issue of love well done in bed but not in life.

Once upon a time, literary and erotica, as then defined, dove into the market with a big splash and rumble, tantalizing readers. Think Grove Press (Barney Rosset is now 83, I think) and noise around publication of Lady Chatterley's Lover, Tropic of Cancer, Naked Lunch. Jessss, even Joyce's Ulysses, that most mind bending, tone rich, metaphoric, literary of literary novels was it its day so "erotic" it took a trial to bring it to US shores. Ah well, we can hope the pendulum will again swing to a time when an audience arises seeking the artful blend of brains and loins.


Another

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Spice Briefs blurb said:

Spice Books is looking to acquire bold, sexually explicit editorial that pushes the envelope for its new eBook erotica program, Spice Briefs. These are highly erotic short stories; although brief, these novellas should still establish context for the erotic content through an interesting and engaging premise (a great hook), a well-constructed plot and believable characters. Quality editorial is paramount.

Like Spice Books, what will set Spice Briefs apart is its broad spectrum of sexy editorial. We are looking for all kinds of subgenres—contemporary, ethnic, literary, mystery/suspense, historical and paranormal stories told in first- or third-person point of view (female only) or, if it works for the story, multiple points of view. Authors should feel comfortable exploring any and all sexual scenarios, even ones considered "taboo," and should avoid using euphemisms in favor of the frank, graphic language typical of the erotica genre.

Only complete manuscripts submitted electronically will be considered; no partials or queries, please. Submissions should be sent as a Word file attachment, or in a program that can be converted to Word. Submissions should also follow standard formatting guidelines—double-spaced and written in a clear, legible font on numbered pages. Author name and title should appear as a header or footer on each page.

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The difficulty is that publishing is a business. The hope is that publishing is a business. Currently, someone takes a shot and publishes something in a new direction, and they develop a market for it. When it becomes successful of course, other businesses see this and emulate the model. Generally though the first person to do it well will reap the greatest rewards, the others will be seen as knockoffs. So, currently the erotica market is very genre-driven, works written in certain established categories are much easier to get published (ie m/m, paranormal, etc).

The big problem is evaluating risks. When a publisher commits to publishing a work it means the risk of investment; for the publisher to stay in business they need some return on their investment. If a publisher has a proven track recorrd selling certain types of books, they feel safe putting more out there.

How then does something truly new get published? Well, you have to convince the publisher to take a true risk. If you can make a reasonable case that the work will eventually be profitable and create a new market for them, at minimal risk to themselves, they will probably jump, especially if you can show them it will be a unique untapped market that they can establish, corner, and grow without competition.

Personally I think there is readership out there for lots of different types of stories than usually get published, the problem is getting publishers to take the blinders off.

You should note from the Spice blurb that it's still very genre-oriented. If you read between the lines you can see they are more focused on the what than the who. Note that Spice is an imprint of Harlequin, a long time publisher of formulaic romance written for their mostly female audience; they aren't going to stray too far from their roots. To my mind the difference between genre fiction and literature is the difference between melodrama and drama. Melodrama is about plot, drama is about character.

My take on the current erotica markets are they are pretty much all about the melodrama. This is a rather sad state of affairs, because sex is central to all life, yet few people truly examine how it affects our characters in an open and explicit fashion. I'd really like to see a publishing company step up and build a niche of publishing explicit liturature dedicated to examining a spectrum of issues and viewpoints.

Indeed

MargueriteMing said:

The difficulty is that publishing is a business ...

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Indeed. I've been repeatedly reminded by visiting and posting around Cooler my vision about writing is not sufficiently pragmatic. At this stage, the pragmatist drops book A and goes on to write Book B, I'm told. I suppose the underlying problem is having no interest in writing as a profession (I have a fully satisfying one which pays the bills), only as a passion and avenue to meaning. Not to say I have not worked through multiple beta readers and professional editors to get things as credible and audience friendly as possible; and, I'm certainly willing to market, and have some fiction and non-fiction publication record, and a good and crisp synopsis ... oops, me thinks I'm chasing my tail/tale now.

How then does something truly new get published? If you can make a reasonable case that the work will eventually be profitable ...

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Indeed. And I am scouring Cooler and other sources for how one does make a solid market case for a book akin to the proverbial fish out of water ...

My take on the current erotica markets are they are pretty much all about the melodrama. This is a rather sad state of affairs, because sex is central to all life ...

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Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. So refreshing to hear on this thread, on this site, and the working spring of my book. And thanks for the reference to the publisher. May hope spring eternal.

Another

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MargueriteMing said:

The difficulty is that publishing is a business. The hope is that publishing is a business. Currently, someone takes a shot and publishes something in a new direction, and they develop a market for it. When it becomes successful of course, other businesses see this and emulate the model. Generally though the first person to do it well will reap the greatest rewards, the others will be seen as knockoffs. So, currently the erotica market is very genre-driven, works written in certain established categories are much easier to get published (ie m/m, paranormal, etc).

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It's funny to see m/m described as an established category -- because three years ago it *wasn't*, at least not in erotic romance (pure erotica was another matter). So much so that when Loose Id accepted my first submission to them in early 2004, very few of the erotic romance epubs would consider m/m romances, and Ellora's Cave still had guidelines that explicitly said that they would not accept a submission with any m/m content at all, as they catered to women's fantasies and women didn't like that sort of thing.

As you may have noticed, they have since realised that actually women do like that sort of thing, and so have a lot of other publishers that once wouldn't have touched it. After a couple of pioneers developed a market, of course.

Publishers do notice when other publishers are doing well with a previously disregarded genre. The problem is persuading one to take the risk of being the first.

Exactly my point, someone went first with M/M, and established a market, and now it's another genre. The problem is getting a publisher to take a chance with something that's actually original, and therefore unproven.

Back to Thread Start Up Question

dolores haze said:

What is the difference between Erotica and Literary Erotica? What are some examples of Literary Erotica? Anais Nin, I know, but who else? Thanks.

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Dolores,

You started off asking about the definition of literary erotica. Before long, thread took a slight diversion (in part due to my ramble) into issue of seemingly thin current market for literary erotica. Your question still stands, though some posters took a stab at it: just what is literary erotica?

Maybe the erotica part is easier to nail down than the "literary" part, though I'd vote for a thread on the erotic too someday (since brain is the main erotic organ in my opinion, making things not so simple). But, on the subject of "literary," the following February thread may (or may not) be of help:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11768

Perhaps you have already seen the thread. It contrasts "literary" with "commercial" as the kick off, but meaning of "literary" gets full airing. In any case, you will see my post there about more emphasis on character than plot, often lyrical style and focus on inner world and "human condition" themes. Hate to use that HC phrase, but I think it serves in this case.

O, an example of literary erotica? Story of O still fits pretty well for me, with its complex main character fully rendered; passionate, compelling writing style; and deep delve into the heart and mind of S&M.

Another

A Literary Erotica Tidbit

Nothing like an intelligent, tender, tense, palpable example to illustrate the feel and flow of literary erotica, subject of the thread, albeit a short and fleeting passage from a book with far different ambitions than usual erotica. The inner, human dynamic leads, the outer skin world is but the path, and the prose, well, sumptuous and glittering.

Setting: a crumbling, isolated house at the foot of Mount Kanchenjunga. Two not quite yet lovers begin their exploration of one another toward a first kiss, caught but straining against social and sexual restraints of their Indian culture:

Gyan and Sai. At subsequent pauses in the rain they measured ears, shoulders, and the span of their rib cages.

Collar bones, eyelashes, and chins.

Knees, heels, arch of the feet.

Flexibility of fingers and toes.

Cheekbones, necks, muscles of the upper arm, the small complexities of the hinge bones.

The green and purple of their veins ...

Now and then, she recalled certain delicate observations she had made during her own explorations before the mirror that had been overlooked by Gyan, on account of the newness of landscape between them. It was, she know herself, a matter of education to learn how to look at a woman, and worried that Gyan wasn’t entirely aware of how lucky he was.

Ear lobes downy as tobacco leaves, the tender substance of her hair, the transparent skin of the inner wrist …

She brought up the omissions at his next visit, proffered her hair with the zeal of a shawl merchant: “See – feel. Like silk?”

“Like silk,” he confirmed.

…. But when he tried to test the depth of her eyes with his, her glance proved too slippery to hold; he picked it up and dropped it, retrieved it, dropped it again until it slid away and hid.

So they played the game of courtship, reaching, retreating, teasing, fleeing – how delicious the pretense of objective study, miraculous how it could eat up the hours ...

Up the bones of the spine.

Stomach and belly button -

*

“Kiss me!” he pleaded.

“No,” she said, delighted and terrified.

She would hold herself ransom.

Oh, but she had never been able to stand suspense.

A fine drizzle spelled an ellipsis on the tin roof …

Moments clocked by precisely, and finally she couldn’t bear it – she closed her eyes and felt the terrified measure of his lips on hers, trying to match one shape with the other.

Part of Chapter 20, The Inheritance of Loss, Kiran Desai.

I would defintely consider some of the Black Lace books as literary erotica.
Literary erotica usually describes the setting equisitely.

Black Lace

Dolores writes:

I checked out Black Lace's website. Those are the most thorough submission guidelines I've ever seen. They pay an advance. They're seeking literotica (among many other kinds of erotica). The women only thing was, er, interesting...

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Hmm, women only authors. Guess I'd need a sex change before submitting. However, the guidelines certainly are detailed, more akin to a short course in writing generally and writing erotica in particular. However, note how in spite of the detailed guidance, they are not very explicit about "literary" versus other forms. They say:

"Historical: at least 40% of the titles in the Black Lace series have had historical settings. It was important that our authors eroticised history - this avenue of female sexual fantasy needed to be explored. Though many of our readers want to read about women like themselves in contemporary situations they can relate to, we will still commission new historical Black Lace if the proposals are exceptional (and we regularly reprint our older historical titles too) ...

Paranormal Erotica: this is a difficult genre to get right. Themes and events that are out of most people’s experience often do not lend themselves well to the erotic novel. Most sexual fantasies are firmly rooted in reality. The combination of the paranormal and the erotic can easily slide into the arena of the risible. Bizarre sexual behaviour is one thing; psychic phenomena in all its forms is another. But again, if you are particularly adept at paranormal romance ... And we’d recommend authors be familiar with the genre currently led by contemporary authors such as C Feehan, Sherrilyn Kenyon, Janine Ashbless, Olivia Knight, Michelle Pillow.

Literary Erotica: we will also be looking for groundbreaking and original literary erotic novels – where styles and approaches to the erotic novel differ from the conventions of popular/pulp fiction. In addition, striking adult biographical works will also now be considered by the Erotica editors at Black Lace."

It seems there is a hint there about literary "differing" from the popular (refreshing to hear), but as long as they are naming examples, one wonders why some are not called out in this category too. Maybe because the sub-genre is thin and awaiting examples aside from few mentioned already on this thread? If so, what a wonderful challenge. Good luck to all of the appropriate sex!

Another

Black lace have a great rep. I read them often.

I think "where styles and approaches to the erotic novel differ from the conventions" is a reasonable thumbnail. Literary stuff tends to be more experimental with style, timeline etc.

I wouldn't submit to Black Lace on general principles. I find sexual discrimination in any form to be morally repugnant. Their policy also shows poor judgment, IMO. Frankly, men have been telling women what they want to hear for thousands of years, and we've been believing it, so I see no evidence that they can't write effectively for a female audience.

I would like to make an additional distinction between erotic and explicit. One book that sold at the mainstream levels is "The End of Alice". It is as explicit as anything out there yet would anyone call it erotic? Maybe a few would, but that description would be incomplete. The point is that in pure erotica, sexual scenes are central. The reader reads the story for sexual excitement. Beyond that, of course, one can have layers of complications such as plot and beauty of language, but as far as I've seen it, the purpose of the book is to describe a sexual scenario for the tittilation of one's readers.

This is an effect, and like much of genre writing, a singular effect predominates. As another example, consider the effects of suspence, the loss of oneself in a convoluted mysterious plot, getting wrapped up in a hopeful fairy-tale romance. These are all specific effects to which genre literature strives.

When one speaks of literary erotica or erotic fiction, the writing has to have greater breadth. The erotic is a part of the human experience -- perhaps an integral part -- but the explicit sex scene is more than just fodder for a fantasy. Funny that Dolores Haze started the thread because she is featured in one of the greatest works of literary erotica. Or read for example Nicholson Baker's "Vox" or "the Fermata". What about Susan Minot's "Rapture"? These are mainstream books where sex and sexuality are discussed, analyzed, turned inside out, but, I would argue, are not the only point. They are literary in that they touch us on several levels, they reach us beyond the pure erotic. Then check out "the Sexual Life of Catherine M." -- this book was a New York Times best seller and is a literary orgy. How erotic are these books? They are explicit, but to call them erotica misses so much.

What I'm saying is that there is room out there for the erotic literary, in fact it isn't a new market but a very old one, it's just that we think of it as literary first and erotic second. A salient feature of these books is that the writing has to superb. There may be those who don't think that some of the titles that I mentioned were the most literary works that they have ever read, but each of these works was accepted by mainstream publishers and not one of them is amateur. The authors do not let slip faulty grammar, incomplete thoughts, plot confusion, hackneyed themes and writing gimmicks. The writting is above a certain standard -- whatever that may be. And even in the case of the more shameless, attention-grabbing books, that offer an escape through fast moving plot instead of thought, the writing is fresh and highly effective.

For this market, the focus should be on the writing and the ideas, if these happen to be erotic, then so be it.

--kropedykrop

Homing in on "Literary Erotica"

Seems to me this thread is gradually winding its tale around the essence of the initial question, "what's literary erotica?" Fun how it all jingles along wikipedia style with various brains weighing in, shaping and shaping until something akin to a definition emerges. Seems the consensus is somewhere around here:

- explicit, in whole or part, but with more purpose than titillation
- crafted, with solid if not downright lyrical or otherwise stunning style
- less reliance on plot to ease the reader along, more emphasis on character
- within character, a rich inner world, strong interaction dynamics, emphasis/insight on essence of love
- and for the richest of the puddings, broader themes about the meaning of it all.

As kropedykrop, says "Touched on various levels." Indeed.

Now comes the fun part. If that's our working definition/concept, then examples abound, or do they? Anais Nin was mentioned. I nominated some from an earlier day as well. Now we have Vox, Fermata, Rapture, and Catherine M added. Others? Anne Rice doesn't fit, does she? Crafted, flowing style, but too much plot in your face and not much depth of character and even less on deeper themes? And where does this all leave the likes of Black Lace? A wee bit lacking, no?

Perhaps kropedykrop has made the most telling observation about literary erotica:

in fact it isn't a new market but a very old one.

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Sigh, and there's the rub. Am I simply a grouch, or are the best examples now "history" with the bulk of recent erotica straying from the richness of our emerging definition? And was I right to long for a return to the day of "loins and brains?" Or, is there a current market out there, maybe a bit thin, but waiting, waiting ...

Another

I never really considered Anais Nin to be literary; erotic yes, but not really focused on depth of characterization.

I wouldn't classify most of Ann Rice's work as erotica, except for her Beauty trilogy (although I'd call that just erotica, nothing all that literary about it). However, the first 80% of her novel Belinda is wonderful, although I thought the ending was pretty trite.

Anais Nin - "Literary"?

MargueriteMing writes,

I never really considered Anais Nin to be literary; erotic yes, but not really focused on depth of characterization.

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.

Interestingly, Anais may agree with you, if we consider literary "real" writing. She says in her preface to Little Birds, "As for me, my real writing was put aside when I set out in search of the erotic. These are my adventures in that world of prostitution. To bring them into the light was at first difficult. The sexual life is usually enveloped in many layers, for all of us - poets, writers, artists. It is a veiled woman, half-dreamed." Elsewhere, "I became what I shall call the Madame of an unusual house of literary prostitution. It was a very artistic 'maison,' I must say, a one-room studio with skylights, which I painted to look like pagan cathedral windows." And of course then she goes on to write powerfully about, among other things, a woman's sudden sexual fulfillment at a public hanging.

I don't know how many times I've read Little Birds, quizzically, banged around, puzzled, unable to place it, looking sideways, upside down and every other way to get her, never quite satisfied, but forever fascinated.

Another

Another said:

Am I simply a grouch, or are the best examples now "history" with the bulk of recent erotica straying from the richness of our emerging definition? And was I right to long for a return to the day of "loins and brains?" Or, is there a current market out there, maybe a bit thin, but waiting, waiting ...

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Could this be because literary writing itself is out of vogue? A work that fits the very accurate definition of literary erotica you summarized would necessarily appeal to a wider cross section of the reading public, even if they didn't find the sex scenes erotic. However, the trend these days, thanks to the internet, seems to be toward ever-more-fragmented niches.

Sadly, I can imagine many readers grumbling right now that they don't have time for character development and richness of language. They want a hot sex scene now, dammit. There are plenty of writers happy to oblige. I sound like one of those old fossils who bemoan the lost art of letter writing since the advent of emoticons and text messaging, but I guess that's exactly what I'm doing.

Well, I think a lot of the "great classic" literature isn't all it's cracked up to be. I think writing in general has gotten seriously better. With the advent of word processors and computers in every household, more and more people are interested in taking a stab at writing the next great bestseller, and some of them succeed. Add into the mix a growing industry of books about how to write, and publishers have many more and better crafted stories to publish.

I think in general writing has gotten clearer, more relevant, and better at conveying the meaning behind the words. I tried reading a Jane Austen novel a couple months ago, and after 20 pages or so I had to quit; it just wasn't worth the effort to try to pick out the story from her indirect style. It isn't that people don't want to read great writing. It's become clear that great writing is transparent to the reader; writers have learned to get out of the way of telling the story. Writers now focus on keeping the reader in the story where he or she belongs, instead of calling attention to themselves with excessive verbiage.