Who Are the 144,000?

First, let me say this is a gross question. (Get it - "gross" ... anyone? ... is this thing on?)

I don't have any dogmatic stance on this. I'm highly inclined to believe the number itself is figurative and represents a perfect mingling of Israel (12 tribes) and the Church (12 apostles).

I've been reading alot of Philip B. Brown's stuff at http://www.newwine.org/. Alot of folks would consider him controversial, but I think he has some great insights. He thinks (if I understand correctly) that the 144k will be those resurrected during the millennial reign of Christ with glorified bodies who will "lead others into righteousness". In other words they get their glorified bodies sooner and are ministering to the people on earth during the millennium. These people will be those who "fully overcame sin" through Christ during their lives.

There are lots of great scriptures we could dive into here, but I'll stop there to keep it on topic.

According to what I was taught as a child, the 144,000 are the people who will go to heaven after Armageddon. The other believers will be resurrected to live in an earthly paradise. I was also taught that all members of the 144,000 would be born before the First World War, and that Armageddon would not happen while any of them were still alive. More recently I heard that the prophecy was now that the 144, 000 would all be born before the Second World War. So I'm not sure if the prophecy "changed" or if I am misremembering.
I wonder, Unique, if it was Jehovah's Witnesses you were talking to? The 144, 000 are an important part of their beliefs, and I haven't heard of any other religious group that puts quite so much emphasis on this.
As a child I met a man who was believed to be one of the 144,000, though I'm not sure how that was officially established.

I'd heard the 144k were the chosen Jewish who were to go to heaven, but were seen as "elite," for lack of a better word...I freely admit to not knowing anything for certain, though.

dolores haze said:

I wonder, Unique, if it was Jehovah's Witnesses you were talking to? The 144, 000 are an important part of their beliefs, and I haven't heard of any other religious group that puts quite so much emphasis on this.

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I wondered the same. None of the churches I've ever been connected with take a doctrinal position on it.

I've often suspected that one reason many denominations don't talk about it too much is because most major denominations have greater than 144,000 people in them!

Unique said:

I have discussed this topic with my step dad before he passed (and others, though I don't remember who ...) What I was told was that they were Jewish people who accepted Christ and were going to lead others to Christ during the time of Tribulation.

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That's my understanding as well. From the Pre-Tribulation standpoint, if all the Christians are Raptured, who will be a witness? The 144,000.

But seriously. A lot of people tell me they don't take Revelations literally.
Why not? How can I take the rest of it literally and tell myself, oh, hey - Revelations isn't literal - it's figurative or whatever other word gets used.

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I think Revelation is literal, in that John actually saw what he saw. But I don't think he had the words to describe it. Imagine trying to describe computers, the internet, and Absolute Write to someone from Biblical times. What words would you use? What words would they use to describe it to others of their time?

So what use is it? I think Revelation serves the same purpose as foreshadowing in a novel. It gives a glimpse of things to come. And someday, we'll look back and say: "Oh THAT'S what that meant!" In the meantime, it gives us encouragement that The Author is in control of his creation.

Roger J Carlson said:

I think Revelation is literal, in that John actually saw what he saw. But I don't think he had the words to describe it. Imagine trying to describe computers, the internet, and Absolute Write to someone from Biblical times. What words would you use? What words would they use to describe it to others of their time?

So what use is it? I think Revelation serves the same purpose as foreshadowing in a novel. It gives a glimpse of things to come. And someday, we'll look back and say: "Oh THAT'S what that meant!" In the meantime, it gives us encouragement that The Author is in control of his creation.

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To tag onto what Roger said (which I agree with, btw), prophecy in the Scriptures is usually figurative and uses imagery and numerology to symbolize real-life events. Revelation is a prophetic book and uses lots of prophetic imagery that can be found throughout the rest of Scripture. For example, the dragon represents Satan, the stars represent angels, the lamb represents Christ, etc.

The numerology part can be even trickier because days, weeks, and numbers each have their own special connotation and are often figurative. People spend their lives trying to understand the numerology and all the symbolism and prophesy of the Old Testament that is fulfilled in the New Testament and will be fulfilled at the Second Coming. For example, the Jewish holidays seem to each have a "fulfillment" in the church age (Passover = Crucifiction, Pentecost = Holy Spirit filling the church). And Daniel is filled with end-times prophecies that tie into the books of Thessalonians and Revelation.

That said, most scholars believe the 144,000 is a symbolic number, not an exact one. The JW's originally believed it was a literal number that represented only the JW church ... until their church grew to more than 144,000 when they had to revise their stance to say it was a figurative number which represents their church.

Many people are scared or intimidated by Revelation and end-times in general, so they don't study it or even want to discuss it. This is a real shame, because in Thessalonians, Paul tells us that the second coming is our HOPE! We should greatly rejoice when we think about it and it should be a motivation for us every day.

So I'd encourage you - look into it for encouragement and don't get too caught up in all the symbolism and timelines. Use it to test your heart - am I ready to be tortured and give my life for the name of Jesus? Am I ready to meet Jesus and be with him forever? Those thoughts will truly focus you on what's important - they lift your eyes up from the everyday grind in which we become so easily mired.

Roger J Carlson said:

That's my understanding as well. From the Pre-Tribulation standpoint, if all the Christians are Raptured, who will be a witness? The 144,000.
I think Revelation is literal, in that John actually saw what he saw. But I don't think he had the words to describe it. Imagine trying to describe computers, the internet, and Absolute Write to someone from Biblical times. What words would you use? What words would they use to describe it to others of their time?

So what use is it? I think Revelation serves the same purpose as foreshadowing in a novel. It gives a glimpse of things to come. And someday, we'll look back and say: "Oh THAT'S what that meant!" In the meantime, it gives us encouragement that The Author is in control of his creation.

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Funny you should say "what use is it?", Roger. Martin Luther asked the same question, even trying to get Revelations removed from the Bible (along with the Book of James) when he broke away from the Catholic Church.

By the way, you sure hit the nail on the head about trying to use words to describe the indescribable.

Did John see actual events? or did he see a bizarre, psychedelic, symbolic stream of mental pictures?

Consider the dream of Pharaoh back in Genesis. He saw the seven fat cows and the seven lean cows. And then the seven good heads of wheat and the seven scrawny heads of wheat. We all know there weren't REALLY seven/fourteen cows or seven/fourteen heads of wheat. It was just symbolism to represent seven years. (But how do you show a year in a dream, let alone seven?) So the Pharaoh never traveled in time, (either physically or psychically) he merely had a dream.

So ... did John REALLY see a REAL beast with ten actual heads and seven literal crowns? Or did he just see a "cartoon" of some kind?





Let me rephrase the question:




Did John literally look forward through time into the literal future and see literal events? Like maybe he was watching a newsreel on a movie screen? Or (better yet), was he given the Ebenezer Scrooge treatment of being allowed to travel forward through time and stand invisible in his nightgown robes beside the Ghost of Christmas Future angel, watching the actual events of the future take place?

Or?

Did John remain on the island of Patmos for the entire time, and merely get shown a bizarre LSD-trip of pictures and symbols that had nothing to do with time travel (either physical time travel or psychic time travel) and then he just wrote it like he saw it?

III said:

First, let me say this is a gross question. (Get it - "gross" ... anyone? ... is this thing on?)

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Technically, 144,000 would be a grand gross or perhaps as a pun on a bad piano, a gross grand.

benbradley said:

Technically, 144,000 would be a grand gross or perhaps as a pun on a bad piano, a gross grand.

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That's a very upright observation.

ba dum BUM!!

I pledge not to pontificate. Here's the most basic explanation of what I see in Scripture:

Before Jesus paid for the sins of the world:
1) Everyone who died went to Sheol (the Grave) which has 2 sides
2) Those who died in Faith waited in the Paradise side (Abraham's Bosom) in comfort
3) Those who died without Faith waited in Gahenna (Hell) in torment

When Jesus paid for the sins, he decended to Sheol and led those who were waiting in Paradise up to heaven. Those who die in Christ now go straight to heaven. All the dead await the final Judgment.

References:
Luke 16:19-31; Ephesians 4:8

I'll stop there. Must ..... not .... pontificate .....

Unique, leave it to you to pick such a fascinating topic. You're terrific.

My comments are not meant to inflame (or to tip my hand to those who would aim to tickle an old scar of mine.) But this sort of thing is precisely what left Christianity (a broad stroke for all that would name themselves as such, I know) as nothing I could take as the hingepin of my immortal soul. If it is left to us to decide what in the Holy Scriptures is meant to be taken literally and what is to be digested as allegorical, then no mistakes in those exercises can be held against any of us.

My belief - or lack of - has no bearing on what elements in the Bible are facts, parables, or distorted, incomplete history. Interpretation is all there is.

Perks said:

Unique, leave it to you to pick such a fascinating topic. You're terrific.

My comments are not meant to inflame (or to tip my hand to those who would aim to tickle an old scar of mine.) But this sort of thing is precisely what left Christianity (a broad stroke for all that would name themselves as such, I know) as nothing I could take as the hingepin of my immortal soul. If it is left to us to decide what in the Holy Scriptures is meant to be taken literally and what is to be digested as allegorical, then no mistakes in those exercises can be held against any of us.

My belief - or lack of - has no bearing on what elements in the Bible are facts, parables, or distorted, incomplete history. Interpretation is all there is.

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Hi Perks,

I guess that's what I find so amazing about Grace. It is undeserved favor. Christianity (to me at least) is not about rules or formulas or which biblical fact is truth or not. Christianity is the belief in the love of God. A God who cared enough to send Jesus to wipe away all that other nonsense.

We still love ya, Perks!

Please do. Because I still love about 142,004 of you people.

Hey, Unique, I've got slightly odd request.

While you're doing that slow re-read of Revelations with two Bibles, could you keep an eye out for instances of John inserting himself into the text? Let me explain. Back in college I did a slow re-read of Revelations (can't remember which version) for a paper I was writing on millenarian Christian sects (specifically the Anabaptists). I swear I came across a couple of examples of John as author inserting comments about himself in among the prophesies. They were kind of odd comments too - talking about how much wine he needed to drink to fortify himself after all the bizarre visions, how upset his stomach got from all the wine. I've checked the Bible I have at hand (Catholic), and found nothing. Maybe I imagined it? Maybe it was me drinking all the wine to fortify myself for reading Revelations? I don't know. But could you keep an eye out for that? I'd like to know if I'm crazy or not. Thanks.

dolores haze said:

Hey, Unique, I've got slightly odd request.

While you're doing that slow re-read of Revelations with two Bibles, could you keep an eye out for instances of John inserting himself into the text? Let me explain. Back in college I did a slow re-read of Revelations (can't remember which version) for a paper I was writing on millenarian Christian sects (specifically the Anabaptists). I swear I came across a couple of examples of John as author inserting comments about himself in among the prophesies. They were kind of odd comments too - talking about how much wine he needed to drink to fortify himself after all the bizarre visions, how upset his stomach got from all the wine. I've checked the Bible I have at hand (Catholic), and found nothing. Maybe I imagined it? Maybe it was me drinking all the wine to fortify myself for reading Revelations? I don't know. But could you keep an eye out for that? I'd like to know if I'm crazy or not. Thanks.

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It's not there.

It's too big a can of worms. (Warning: please don't read if easily disturbed)

End Time Prophecy is not an easy topic for people to talk about or listen to. It's a rather grave subject, because it talks about terrible things that happen to mankind. I'm being honest, discussions on End Time Prophecy are not Politically Correct, not fun and happy, and can be very depressing to all who read it, including and perhaps especially Christians who are thinking of escaping troubles in this world.

So, I don't say anything here as flippant as it may sound. But I'm rather aggitated by escapist theology, and the flippant tone of some Christians about the whole issue. It's not a flippant issue, and even God warns that the day of the Lord is a day of darkness with no light. (If you know your OT minor prophets)

This is only a partial answer. The standpoint that the 144,000 represent people in heaven is simply not even consistent with the rest of Revelation's implications of the significant numbers of people that will be in heaven. Heaven will take as many as it can get.

Abraham's physical and spiritual offspring will be like the sands of the sea and the stars of the heavens... put away your five digit calculators.

I'm not going to try to be controversial, but what I'm going to say is likely going to be perceived that way.

First, Christianity isn't an escapist religion, though it has been turned into that by some. And so, there's been far too much focus on the "Rapture", and not Christ.

The obvious and terrible implications are not at all like the most popular books say. When Paul gave the rapture scriptures in 1 Thessalonians, it was addressing a heresy that was easily spread in a pre-television, pre- satalite world. There was a rumor that if someone died before Christ returned (Remember they thought it would happen in their lifetime) that the dead would remain forever dead and miss the resurection.

And so Paul comforts this persecuted church where people are facing possible execution for their faith, who've had loved ones who've died, that those who are DEAD will rise FIRST, and then we who are still alive will meet them in the air and so be with them and Christ forever.

So it's not about escaping persecution and death, it's about staying faithful and not fearing death, or despairing about departed loved ones.

And so, "THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST."

Next, so many scriptures refer to this happening at the LAST TRUMP, which includes PAUL. And in Revelations there are a bunch of TRUMPS. And Revelations Six and Seven and Eight, and Nine happen before the last Trump.

So, this idea that Christian escape all persecution and lots of really bad stuff in the End Times, is not at all consistent with the scripture writen by a man that history says the Romans tried to boil in oil.

I'm not sure why I'm going off on this Christian Escapism, but I figured I'd do it someday. Before the 1970s there weren't alot of books writen on Christian escapism. It's actually a rather more recent event.

This is not to say there is no rapture, though this word doesn't appear as such. The Bible promises that living or dead, Christ will transform his Church. And at his coming, he will bring his church with him.

So technically, this idea that 144,000 go to heaven and the rest of believers live on earth, is also bogus. There will be a mix of mortals and immortals on the earth for a time. And there will be evil people, and good people. But it will be a different world than what we're used to. (See Zechariah 14 and Isaiah- the lion shall lie with the lamb...etc.)

But since the topic is actually Pre-Melenial, what about the 144,000.

Paul faced a second heresy that followed the first. Remember, they couldn't pick up a phone or read a paper, and so information passed around very slowly back in the day.

After Paul assured the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ will rise from the dead, just as Christ rose from the dead, the new heresy said that Jesus had already come and gone, and taken his church, and everyone else was just outta luck. No resurrection, no heaven, just a life of persecution (Christianity was not a popular religion then either) and death.

And all of these heresy's were terribly destructive to a persecuted church. If there's no chance of heaven why live for Christ, let alone die for Christ. Paul even said if that is the case, why not eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

So, Paul gives very specific markers for the End Times, and the taking away of the church to be with Christ forever. That day SHALL NOT COME, until 2 things happen. The man of perdition be revealed- the antichrist for those who are wondering. And he sets up his throne in the rebuilt Temple...- well, it's starting to look like three things.

And the second thing is the "Great Falling Away". Not the great revival.

And so Jesus speaks of brother betraying brother, and parents their children, or children their parents, and giving them up to death.

To know what this looks like, look in those communist countries that outlawed Christianity, and in some places actually tried exterminating all Christians. Read any of Richard Wurmbrand's books, "In God's Prison...etc."

So Even Jesus confirms Paul's assertion that there will be a terrible time of persecution- you WILL BE HATED by ALL nations.

Sorry for the caps lock, but to emphasise the point.

And so, if you follow my point. 2 things have to happen. And one of those two things can't even happen yet, because the Jewish Temple isn't even rebuilt yet. That doesn't happen until after Ezekiel's prophecy (See Ezekiel 38 and 39- the Temple is rebuilt in chapter 40)

Also see Zechariah chapter 12. Jerusalem becomes a stumblingblock to all nations, leading to all nations eventually coming to war.

However, this "Day of the Lord" is not going to happen all at once.

The term Day also meant a period of time, like "The Day of Battle" not being one day, but the period of war.

And so when Zechariah says, "In that DAY..." it means in that Period or span of time...

Back to those 144,000.

In Zechariah 12:10- After God gives Israel a major military victory, there is a period when "They shall look upon ME whom they've pierced, and mourn for HIM as for an only son..." depending on the translation.

Who was pierced? See Psalm 22 which was also written way before Christ was born. And Isaiah 9, and Isaiah 53.

This also corresponds with the Spirit being poured upon Israel in Ezekiel 38-39, after God delivers them.


Don't read past here if you're fearful and dislike Bible Prophecy stuff, because it's frankly scary.

So, to get a timeline of things. Revelation Six is before Revelation 9. Revelation Six corresponds with Ezekiel 38-39, when fire will rain upon the coastlands. And Revelation 9 corresponds with the first time the Antichrist and a European Alliance comes against the kings of the (south or east depending whether you look at Revelations or Daniel) which would be the South/East of Jerusalem - which is likely China and the Asian alliances.

Why is the Antichrist (Europe) and Asia the two end time superpowers?

If you look at Ezekiel's prophecy, one of the players is definitely Russia. 5/6 of the nations involved are killed according to the prophecy. Revelations 6 describes a nuclear holicost. Paraphrase, and the stars will fall from the heavens, and the sky will roll up like a scroll- talk about mountains falling.


Now back to the 144,000. After the four horsemen of the Appocalypse (Did I spell that right?) there will be a terrible worldwide persecution of Christians.

Sorry, but according to the scriptures, this all likely will be before the rise and revelation of the antichrist, and therefore before the Great Tribulation period- which was first used by Jesus to refer to Israel's Great Tribulation.

This may all be at the hand of the antichrist, but there are two different periods of tribulation talked about in Revelations. 1 in 6 and the other in chapter 7.

Now Zechariah is the only book that gives a specific timeline. It starts with Jerusalem becoming a stumblingblock to all nations- See also Joel 3. God will bring all nations into judgment for trying to divy up his people and his land. (Bible Prophecy is also not P.C at all)

After Israel wins this great military victory and (not PC at all)- if you look at the make-up of the nations that (first) come against Israel as named in Ezekial 38-39- they would make up all the nations that don't want Israel to rebuild the Temple.

Then Israel will build the Temple (most likely after Revelations 6). What happens to the Christians. Well, since the Rapture can't happen until after the revealing of the antichrist and the great falling away. It's most likely that Christians will be decimated in the great persecution. See Revelations 6, where the saints are told to wait until the number of the martyrs is complete.

And so, again, this is not PC- but if Israel has a great conversion and look upon Him whom they have pierced- and a fountain (metaphor) flows out of Israel- symbolising spiritual life. The 144,000 are those God sets aside for a specific purpose.

This happened in Elijahs time as well, where God marks his servants.

All these 144,000 are actual Jews and it specifies how many from each tribe, and what their qualifications are. God promised Israel in both Exodus and Isaiah that they would be a nation of Priests.

* Disclaimer. I'm not telling anyone what to think. Everyone has to make up their own minds. Any attitude conveyed in this message is simply because I don't see Christianity as an escapist religion, meaning if you become a Christian you escape troubles, and persecution and problems. Jesus promised, "In the world you will have tribulation..." huh???

I'm simply looking at this from trying to piece together all the various scriptures to try to get a clear picture. And it doesn't look all rosie and escapist to me. But everyone can read and cross-reference things.

Look at Daniel's prophecy about the beast and the last two wars. The first of the last two wars corresponds with Ezekiel nine, when the Euphrates is dried up...etc. 1/3 of mankind dies in this period.

Now go back to Revelations 6, and roughly 1/4 of mankind dies at that time. This is serious sorrow. Serious hardships.

So there will be 3 great and terrible military events in the Bible. Only the last one is Armaggedon. - I've already gone way beyond what most people can stand, so I'll stop here.

Sorry if this bums anyone out, but I warned this is not a topic for the feint of heart. It sometimes bums me out. But hey, I look to the bright side, God's love, and the fact that he said, "In the world you will have tribulation...but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world..."