So Do ALL PODs Suck?

[Sgt Spanky]

Okay, I've been reading here and I certainly get that PA sucks but does the whole concept of POD suck and do all POD publishers suck?

I'm curious what the veteran posters think of this publishing option.



...and Hi from the new guy. :)

[James D Macdonald]

Print on Demand is a business model.

It's unfortunate that a whole pile of vanity presses have adopted it, giving the name a bit of a smell. But to answer your question, no. Not all PoD publishers suck, and there's a lot to be said for the business model.

[Sgt Spanky]

Can you elaborate further, James?

For example, iUniverse. They claim a great deal of support and placement of one's books with prime sellers both online and in bookstores.

Depending on the publishing package, of course.

[James D Macdonald]

iUniverse is a vanity PoD.

[Gala]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>iUniverse is a vanity PoD.<hr></blockquote>

Not entirely. I can go to Barnes and Noble and order an iUniverse book. The author doesn't pay to have it printed.

I can also go to a booksigning and Barnes and Noble, and the author may have a stack of his books for sale, that he purchased himself to resell.

I've participated in both kinds of purchases, to support authors in my community or that I critiqued. I've even gotten their books into my local library by having the library purchase from iUniverse.

Their model differs from others that expect the author to buy and resell all of their own books.

I'm referring to the final sale of books only, and won't delve into marketing plans and all of that discussed ad infinitum elsewhere on AW.

[James D Macdonald]

Not entirely. I can go to Barnes and Noble and order an iUniverse book. The author doesn't pay to have it printed

You can go to Barnes & Noble and order a PublishAmerica book too. "Available in" and "Stocked in" are two different things.

The author pays up front. iU's cheapest package starts at $299 and goes up from there.

Remember: The only place an author signs a check is on the back.

[vstrauss]

Uncle Jim and I usually agree, but here I have a somewhat different perspective...

Print on demand isn't a business model---it's a technology. The technology is part of a business model that many people (mistakenly, IMO, since POD can be used for a lot of things) identify as "POD". This business model--which includes a particular complex of practices such as no or minimal editorial gatekeeping, high cover prices, short discounts, and no returns--is an adaptation of new tech to the very old business of vanity publishing. Where it differs significantly from old-style offset vanity publishing is in price: POD, because it allows one book to be printed at a time, is much, much cheaper. These new vanity publishers can therefore can charge a low initial fee (at least, compared with the thousands of dollars that print vanities like Vantage charge).

New-style vanities come in two flavors:

- Fairly straightforward pay-to-publish operations such as iUniverse, Author House, Xlibris, Infinity, Trafford, etc, etc, which may hype up the supposed advantages of "self"-publishing and sell worthless adjunct services but basically don't try to deceive writers about what's going on. If you're looking to become the next great American novelist they're not a good choice; but for noncommercial books (such as a family memoir) or niche nonfiction projects (where the author has a way to reach his audience or to direct-sell books) they can be a reasonable way to go.

- Deceptive operations that attempt to hide or camouflage their fees, and pose as "traditional" publishers. Sometimes they bury the fees in the contract (like Washington House/Trident Media, which charges several thousand dollars for "editing"); sometimes they hide them so cleverly that hoodwinked authors think they're getting published for free (like PublishAmerica, whose fees are hidden in its very high book prices and constant incentives for authors to buy their own books). Operations like this, which not only extract money but typically have poor contracts and treat their authors like crap, should be avoided.

Print on demand technology can also be part of a commercial publishing business model. Larger houses use it to print up galleys and ARCs. Smaller publishers may use it as a cost-effective way of producing small print runs. Some perfectly legitimate publishers are entirely POD-based; except for not using offset, they function like commercial publishers.

- Victoria

[emeraldcite]

Washington House/Trident Media


which is different than trident media group, the agency, right?

[James D Macdonald]

Usually I agree with Victoria, but in this case I differ a bit.

I consider digitial printing to be different from Print/Publish on Demand.

Digital printing allows short run printing as low as a single copy. This is the technology.

Print on Demand only prints a book after the order is received. This is the business model.

The publishers who use digital printers to print up short runs of books aren't Print on Demand publishers, regardless of how the ink gets on the paper.

While most Print on Demand publishers use digital printing technology, its possible to use offset in the same way. If a PdD got a paid order for 500 copies from one of their authors, I'm sure they'd take it to a local short-run offset printer. The price per copy is lower. That wouldn't stop 'em from being a PoD publisher.

I'm morally certain that iU's Amy Fisher book is being printed on offset presses. That doesn't stop iU from being a PoD house either.

[Gala]

maybe I'm being lied to but the iUniverse authors I know do not pay up front before one of their books is printed per order.

I also considered iUniverse last year for an anthology project, so intereacted with iU a bit.

It's true there are up front fees to get the ball rolling--that's vanity. Also authors can purchase their books at a discount an resell themm--that's vanity.

But when I order their book over the counter, or for the library, the authors are not paying to have that book printed.

I don't know anything about PA or the other companies.

[James D Macdonald]

maybe I'm being lied to but the iUniverse authors I know do not pay up front before one of their books is printed per order.

They paid a minimum of $299 before any of their books were printed, right?

[keltora]

Wildside Press is one of the presses taking advantage of the PoD technology.

I have one set of reprinted stories with them that pays a small but steady royalty. Nothing to sneeze at, but it's nice to keep those stories in print.

:coffee

[maestrowork]

I guess what Gala said was: after you paid the upfront charges (which include the "services" in various packages), you don't pay another dime for the actual books printed, unlike, say, Lulu or Cafe Press (well, the author doesn't pay either... the cost is pushed on the readers by charging them higher book prices).

So if you sell 500 books or 50,000 books, the upfront charge is the same. It's PoD. Not sure if iUnverse's books are returnable or not, but judging from Amy Fisher's book, they do offer discounts.

[Gala]

Thanks Maestro. That's correct.

It's semantics. I see cafe press as a vanity publisher too, despite the difference in the order of how/when the book is published (printed, actually). It's not an different than my running off copies and selling them, OR saying, "for ten bucks I'll print you a copy."

The diff is cafe press (I suspect) has better equipment than I do and handles mailing and other details so authors don't have to.

I was once involved in a project where copies were printed at Kinkos with fairly decent binding. People wanted to buy more, so more were printed. Same thing.

I know some cafe press folks will disagree with me here, and that's fine. I buy books I like and from authors I support no matter how they were printed.

I prefer traditional publishing for my books, for all kinds of reasons not pertinent here.

It may be apparent by now I tend to throw all non-traditionally published work in a big POD/Vanity bucket. As with tradional publishing companies, and all business, some are more scrupulous and have a higher quality product than others. Buyer beware.

[James D Macdonald]

I know this is going to sound like semantics, but when you run off copies at Kinkos, that's self-publishing.

[Gala]

sure is.

so is cafe press, imo ;) and in my mind, iUniverse and others can rest in my bucket too.

It's all vanity.

:b

(for the record--cafe press wasn't around when we used Kinkos. Now I'd use cafe press, iUniverse or similar for that kind of project.)

[Greenwolf103]

Not all POD publishers are evil. Look at Angela Hoy: Her company is POD but it's not like she's saying "you have to pay $500 to get published with me." I truly think she is trying to do something GOOD for POD publishing (if that is possible?) but the negatives are still there. And there are, unfortunately, more sharks than there are dolphins. :grin

But I echo Gala's point: Go with a traditional press first. If you can. If not, self-publishing your book is better than POD.

[SimonSays]

The essential difference between vanity publishers and whatever you want to call them - traditional publishers, commercial houses, is this:

Vanity publishers (whether they charge upfront fees or not and regardless of the technology they use) publish your book for YOU. Traditional publishers publish your book for THEMSELVES.

What I mean by that is that traditional publishers are seeking books that they feel will have appeal to a large audience base, because there goal is to sell as many copies as possible of each title they publish. They reject a lot of books because they don't think the quality of the writing or the subject matter of the book will have a broad appeal.

Vanity publishers however, do not care what kind of appeal or what quality a book is. They are not looking to sell a lot of copies of any individual title, their goal is to have as many titles as possible.

Publish America claims to be near selling their millionth book and claims to have 9,000 authors - that comes out to about 100 copies of each book. A traditional publisher on the other hand can sell that many total copies off a couple dozen titles.

Because traditional publishers are seeking to sell 10s of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of each title, they are willing to invest in marketing and distribution. Vanity publishers however, throw their marketing dollars towards attracting new authors, not toward selling their books.

So if you are looking for marketing support and distribution - then the answer is yes, all vanity publishers suck.

[vstrauss]

Another way of expressing the vanity/commercial publisher difference: A vanity publisher's customers are its authors. A commercial publisher's customers are its readers.

iUniverse and other vanity POD authors actually do pay each time a book is printed, because the vanity POD keeps the lion's share of the book's purchase price. That's how these companies are able to keep the upfront costs down. With true self-publishing, all proceeds go to the author.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

A traditional publisher prints books in advance of orders.

A PoD publisher prints books after the orders are in hand.

This is because a traditional publisher is anticipating sales -- while a PoD publisher isn't.

[Whachawant]

Well, there have been a lot of good comments on this thread. More so, for the fact that P.O.D.'s are not a good choice, unless you want a short run of a book that should not have been in print.

I'm convinced! Over 90% of P.O.D.'s....SUCK!
Mind you, it may still be a result of the jackasses that ruined it for the honest guy.

[vrauls]

I have a project that I plan on self-publishing. It's a family cookbook of grandmother's recipes that I'll hand out as Christmas gifts.

I'm not interested in a "publisher" to handle anything for me, I don't need editing, an ISBN, or any bogus services. The book will never be sold and I won't consider it an author credit on my resume. I certainly don't need a company keeping most of my money for nothing.

But I would like something more professional than running copies off at Kinko's. Where do I go for a straight professional deal -- I pay up front for X number of copies and they deliver them to me? No percents, no BS, no vanity nonsense.

[CaoPaux]

Drop down to the Self-publishing board:

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...ID=3.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm50.showMessage?topicID=3.topic)

[James D Macdonald]

Where do I go for a straight professional deal?

The yellow pages. Check in your local phone book under "printers, commercial."

[Sgt Spanky]

Lotsa good input here. Thanks for the benefit of everyone's experience. It's been helpful. :thumbs

[Gala]

Depending on where you live, Kinkos may have the equipment for what you need.

A corporation I worked for used them to print bound books with color covers. The binding wasn't comb either, though that's available and might be preferable for a cookbook.

I moved to a smaller town and the Kinkos couldn't handle making real books. And then they went out of business.

And yeah, check the yellow pages (though when I did once the "publisher" was printing at Staples, which I could do myself) and the AW board.

Enjoy your project. I'm sure the recipients will love it.

[Lee32940]

See my comments, 11/2/04, under AuthorHouse. POD is a good system if the ordering problems with the major bookseller chains is solved. Otherwise, you can't sell large orders to any of the major chains.

[Whachawant]

POD is a good system if the ordering problems with the major bookseller chains is solved.

P.O.D. would be a good system if the crooks hadn't taken over first.
Paying fees up front to perform a service or a product is a definite sign that the people you're dealing with are screwing you over. Its important to use all resources at your disposal to find legitimate parties to assist in your goal.

Along with links on the first page of the Author House thread going to rebuttals against the company, there is this link I found recently....
www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff105765.htm (http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff105765.htm)

I have yet to see an answer to the question...is there a legitimate P.O.D. company? Well known to produce books for the commercial market.
James, Dave, Victoria and quite a few other board regulars haven't and probably can't answer this question cause they've researched and been published by larger and well known companies and they have heard all the flack from the 'so called major' P.O.D. companies who have ripped other people off....

This is what I want....

A P.O.D. company....That:

Charges no fee to print the book.

Charges no fee for editing, graphics, advertising, and administration of said book.(y'know like the big boys)

Doesn't make the author purchase his or her book. (Lee32940,..I know on top of nearly 1000 dollars to publish, you had to buy 20 copies...this is where I told Author House to go to hell)

Has NO criminal allegations against them for lack of services, promises, contract breech, or royalty payment problems.

Is recognized by major book distributors/retailers/warehouses etc. i.e. meaning I should be able to go to a book store, pick a book off the shelf and see this P.O.D. publishers name on the inside cover.


---Only then would you convince me that, not all P.O.D.'s suck.---

Lee32940, I understand you don't have any problems with your 'publisher' and you are satisfied with the situation. But I'm telling you flat out..... you've been ripped off!
Submit your book and or books to a real publisher and see what happens.
:thumbs

[SimonSays]

Whatchwant -

No subsidy / vanity publisher of any kind is going to have distribution in book stores. These companies ARE recognized by booksellers, distributors, warehouses for exactly what they are - which is why they will not carry their books.

Booksellers etc. know that these companies are providing a service for writers - not "publishing" books in the normal sense. As such there is absolutely no quality control on the titles they publish. Booksellers have limited shelf space and are not willing to give up that space to books that are published in this manner. There are just too many of them that aren't good. Booksellers want to stock books published by companies who are dedicated to producing high-quality works that they can sell.

You are wrong in your statement that it would be a good system if crooks hadn't taken over first. Just because someone charges upfront does not make them dishonest - we usually pay for things before we take ownership of them. Vanity publishing is what it is, and there is a market for these services.

As has been pointed out repeatedly these publishers are serving writers, not the book buying public. That is their reason d'etre. They put all their marketing and advertising money into signing more writers - not into selling books. This does not necessarily make them dishonest.

These publishers will charge you upfront and/or make you buy your own books and encourage to buy many many copies of said book. That is how they make their money. But again, this does not make them dishonest.

Writer's who don't take the time to educate themselves about the publishing world or are too lazy and/or fragile to deal with the rejection that comes with the quest to get published will often choose this path. Many are unaware that they are not really published. For them, ignorance is bliss. Many aren't good enough to get published by a commercial publisher - they are living their dream. For some, having a book in print to show family and friends is enough. For ALL these people, this type of service fills a need.

If your goal is to be published and have your book on bookstore shelves, then you are wasting your time focusing on PODs at all. Begin researching REAL publishers.

[vstrauss]

Wachawant, what you're describing is a commercial independent publisher. The technology it uses to produce its books is irrelevant. You don't define a publisher by its printing technology, but by its business practices and the quality of its published books.

That said, simple economics dictates that a successful indie publisher is unlikely to be wholly POD-based. Success means larger print runs, and above 500 or so copies (or is it 1,000? My brain is slow today), offset is more economical.

- Victoria

[Whachawant]

I don't know who you guy's are talking to cause I sign in as Whachawant.......

These companies ARE recognized by booksellers, distributors, warehouses for exactly what they are - which is why they will not carry their books.
---so... pod sucks....:wha

These publishers will charge you upfront and/or make you buy your own books and encourage to buy many many copies of said book. That is how they make their money. But again, this does not make them dishonest.

---No???... its a rip-off...rip-offs are a form of dishonesty....!.. and that sucks!!

You don't define a publisher by its printing technology, but by its business practices and the quality of its published books.
---I agree. Problem is the major POD's(Author House, P.A) do not have good business practices, and the repercussions fall on the honest guy....

Writer's who don't take the time to educate themselves about the publishing world or are too lazy and/or fragile to deal with the rejection that comes with the quest to get published will often choose this path. Many are unaware that they are not really published. For them, ignorance is bliss. Many aren't good enough to get published by a commercial publisher - they are living their dream. For some, having a book in print to show family and friends is enough. For ALL these people, this type of service fills a need.

---Interesting.. only these 'PUBLISHERS' say that their books will be available for sale.. and that's where the authors get suckered in....!...Fills a need? So does murder...keeps the population down.

Simon.. you almost make this scam sound legit in this paragraph. Give a relative a gift. Sure! A book even... hell ya, why not. But to be conned into it. Ahhh... NO! If I want to publish a book or a picture for my family it won't cost 1000 dollars U.S. From another posting, according to the person, I could have the services of an offset printer, the ISBN and advertising costs and still had enough money to throw a party..... I wonder how they would feel knowing you think that they(authors) are lazy and not good enough. They think they are! Their publisher(pod) told them so.. that's why their books are going into book stores.. NOT! This is what I'm talking about...Not joe blow who runs a commercial printing firm in a local town.
I'm relaying the information from posts and my own personal research...references that I'm glad I got a hold of before making a hasty decision. There are thousands of people disappointed that their book is not being seen by the general public and ONLY by their family and friends. Selfish? No.. ripped off and lied too!! Yes!.

There are new ones posted on the P.A. board as recently as Nov. 3. ...6 postings of P.A. on the Rip-off report site
Author House. 1 on the Rip-off report site
They are also currently in court.
iUniverse as far as I know there is no legal action against them .. but I think it was posted that you spend 300 bucks just to have a short run of prints for your 'published book'


LOOK You guy's wanna waste your money.. be my guest. All I know is ..when I sign a contract I don't put any money down to sell a literary/visual project. ... It won't be with Author House, P.A. iUniverse,LuLu,...period!

Cheers to ya :thumbs

[SimonSays]

Watchawant -

I am not defending the business practices of any individual vanity publisher. I am not a cheerleader for vanity publishing - see my earlier post - I specifically say that IF you want your book distributed in bookstores and marketed than POD's suck. I would rather keep my novel in a drawer than have it published in this way.

My point is that it is not necessarily a scam. And there are people who can benefit from the service. My great grandmother wrote her autobiography. English was her second language and she had the most amazing ability to make even the most heart-stopping exciting story boring as can be. She could never ever in a million years have been published legitimately. But she did go to a vanity publisher and she gave her book to her family and friends and she FELT like a real author. She felt just as legitimate as Hemingway. Who was hurt by it? It cost her a couple hundred bucks which she could afford. I for one am glad that she had the opportunity to see her book in print and believe she was a published author.

You and I are a little more aware than my great grand-mother was and we aspire to be published legitimately - and hopefully we both will. But the large majority of aspiring writers will never be published for real - and vanity publishers do provide them an opportunity to see their books in print, such as it is.

[AnneMarble]

I have yet to see an answer to the question...is there a legitimate P.O.D. company? Well known to produce books for the commercial market.

There's Wildside Press. But they specialize in reprinting previously published material, and they don't want queries from first-time authors. So they're really a small publisher that uses POD. They are a great source if you want to buy things like Lord Dunsany or William Hodgson's "The Ghost Pirates" and can't afford one of the pricier small press editions.

[Whachawant]

O.K. so, Simon, .. a couple hundred bucks spent and gave the book to Friends and Family. Who was the vanity publisher? How many copies?.....
If you're suggesting 20 copies at 10 bucks a piece.. then I'll say it was a good deal.. and will probably stay in the hearts of the ones dear to her....and chances are I probably couldn't find the book on the internet.

That ,... I have to stress, is something totally different.

But in no way should corporations be preying on people like your grandmother.. just to make a buck and for the companies benifit.

[mysteryquiller]

iU is 49% owned by Barnes & Noble, yet it is a vanity press.

Another problem with PODs is they are printed by Lightning Source and then distributed by Ingram, essentially the same company. Each time a POD book makes a move, someone gets a cut, thus making the end product very expensive. Most publisher print a run, and then go to a distributor. Unfortunately, this cuts out distributors like Newsgroup or Greenleaf, so a POD book is difficult to get anywhere unless the store uses Ingram.

[vstrauss]

Barnes & Noble divested some of its iUniverse holdings a few years ago. I think it now owns around 22%.

POD-printed books are more expensive than offset-printed books not because of people getting cuts, but because of economies of scale. Books are cheaper to print in large numbers than in small ones. To make a profit on a book printed one or two or 50 at a time, they have to be priced a lot higher than a book with a print run of several thousands.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

If a publisher put out a catalog, fielded a sales force, took returns, and offered a standard discount, it wouldn't matter if they didn't actually print the books until after a bookstore ordered them. They'd be PoD, but honest ones.

For all I know there are some.

[skylarburris]

] i Universe and other vanity POD authors actually do pay each time a book is printed, because the vanity POD keeps the lion's share of the book's purchase price.

I don't think this is an accurate statement. I have used a vanity POD and I receive 50 percent of net royalties on every sale--considerably more than I would receive through a traditional publisher, which usually pays around 10 percent in royalties. It is the traditional publisher that keeps the lion's share of the book's purchase price, because it is the traditional publisher that endures the risk and the expense. For the vanity POD publisher, there is no risk (since books are only printed as ordered) and no cost (since up-front fees pay for the initial set-up cost). Therefore, they can afford to pay more royalties, and still make a profit. Even iuniverse, I believe, pays either 20% or 30% in royalties on net receipts.

If you make less money from a vanity POD, it isn't because you pay more or because your royalties are less. The set-up fee can be as low as $300 with a vanity POD. And the royalties are higher than with traditional publishing. You make less because you sell fewer copies, because you do not receive the marketing or the respect you would receive from using a traditional publisher.

If you know your book is not likely to be picked up by a traditional publisher, and you don't want to lay out a huge amount of money for risky self-publishing, then vanity POD may be the way to go--as long as you aren't expecting to become famous, to make a lot of money, or to earn a lot of respect. If your goal is to get a product into the hands of a niche audience without having to do the printing and distribution yourself--then vanity POD is great.

I made back my initial investment in the first few months of sales. Every copy I sell now is a pure 50 percent royalty on net receipts for me. All I do now is sit back and make money on every sale. Perhaps I spend a little time and energy in self-promotion, but I don't have to distribute, sell, collect taxes, mail out books...hey, I'd rather be writing.

As for the question "Do all PODs suck?" No--not if you know what you are getting and don't decieve yourself. However, they aren't going to give you the personal attention that a traditional publisher will, and slow responses can be annoying--especially when you think of the fact that you are a paying customer.

Why is it that on these boards self-publishing seems to earn respect and vanity publishing is scorned? In both cases, one pays to publish.

[James D Macdonald]

A lower percentage of the gross is often better than a higher percentage of the net.

Traditional publishers pay royalties on the cover price. PoDs usually pay royalties on the net. That's a big difference.

[vstrauss]

As Jim said, a high percentage of net isn't the great deal it often seems.

Say your commercially published book costs $24.95. Say your royalties are 10% of cover price. That's a royalty of $2.59 per book.

Say your POD-published book costs the same. Say your royalties are 20% of net (which is standard for PODs like iUniverse), net being the payment your publisher actually receives. If your book is bought through an online vendor such as Amazon, net is going to be 45% of the cover price, or $11.23. 20% of that is $2.24. So that higher percentage actually works out to less cash.

50% of net is unusually high for a fee-based POD.

- Victoria

[Whachawant]

wow ...that's an interesting break down...

Thanks Victoria!!:thumbs

[skylarburris]

Well, 10% of my cover price would mean a royalty of $1.40. The royalty I get paid, however, ranges from $2.67 - $4.80, depending on where the book is bought (since stores take a cut). So, the royalties are higher through POD, even accounting for differences in application to gross or net. Yes, 50% is unusually high for a vanity POD, which is partly why I chose this one. (The other reason was that they would let me set a semi-reasonable price for my book.) But even with iuniverse, which pays lower royalties, my royalty on this book would be $1.40 - $2.40, still higher than a 10% on the gross. In most cases, 25-50% on net will be higher than 10% on gross.

The per-book royalty is higher through a vanity POD--but you sell fewer books and therefore make less total money.

If my audience had been only friends and family, I might have self-published. But my audience is fans of Jane Austen and general readers of Regency Romance, and I don't know them personally to be able to distribute my work to them. Vanity POD enables me to make that work available on Amazon.com and Barnesandnoble.com, without me having to do the distribution work or the shipping.

[Whachawant]

The per-book royalty is higher through a vanity POD--but you sell fewer books and therefore make less total money.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me. Think I'll stick to filtering out the bad weeds of regular publishing.

[Julie Worth]

For POD, you might want to check out Lulu.com. I’ve found them to be a tremendous tool. I can upload a new edition in five minutes, and have the revised copies in a week or two. The copies are great for getting feedback, and even for the occasional submission—I recently had an agent request an MS, and I told her she could have the regular stack of paper or a POD, and she took the POD. And that makes sense for an agent—it’s something she can stick in her purse and read at odd moments (or, if it’s sh*t, drop in a trashcan on the way to the subway).

[Whachawant]

I recently had an agent request an MS, and I told her she could have the regular stack of paper or a POD, and she took the POD.

I like that form of test marketing, Julie. Although some people may disagree with it, cause it makes you look like you've just self-published through a vanity POD. But, if explained I think it gives you a certain characteristic that you're serious about your craft.

Cheers:cheers

[James D. Macdonald]

Not all PODs suck, but like anything else you have to know what you're doing and walk in with your eyes open.

Knowing and defining your goals in advace is very useful indeed.

[macandal]

So I take it that (besides getting published the traditional way) self-publishing is better than PoD publishing. There was this company called Versal Books, they're now called CBH Books (http://www.versalbooks.com), are they PoD or self-publishing? I think they actually edit your book.

[Aconite]

So I take it that (besides getting published the traditional way) self-publishing is better than PoD publishing.
I think it's more useful to say, "Self-publishing is better than vanity publishing," since many authors self-publish with POD. (Note: I'm not evaluating the truth of the statement, just clarifying the terms.)

There was this company called Versal Books, they're now called CBH Books (http://www.versalbooks.com), are they PoD or self-publishing? I think they actually edit your book.
If you're paying to have the book published but you do not have title to the books when they come from the printer, I'd call that vanity publishing, not self-publishing.

[Beast]

Hello People,

Thought I might add a little value to this thread and give you my experience thus far with iUniverse as well as my motivations for taking this route.

Background
After 10 years of often sporadic effort, I have completed my novel, 'The Aquarius Key, A Novel of the Occult.' The book is based on decades of research into the history and practice of magick.

Motivation
I live in South Africa, so querying agents and publishers is extremely time consuming and exponentially more frustrating. Thus my initial interest in POD, although I will continue to seek a bona fide publisher in parallel.

Research
My reserach showed that a POD author must do all marketing etc. by him/her self, but that moderate success could be moderately rewarding financially and would provide experience of the publishing world.

Quality
Brief scrutiny of available POD titles can cause considerable distress to those of us who harbor even a modicum of love for our language - but god, I Love Atlanta Nights! Nevertheless, a POD writer is severely disadvantaged in this respect, no matter how competent she or she might be. So what is a writer to do?


iUniverse
This posting is not a plug for iUniverse.
My first observation is that I considered the editorial evaluation (for which I paid) to be thoroughly worthwhile. It was well structured and provided incisive observations on the quality of my work. Please bear in mind that for most aspiring scribes, such critique is not readily available.

Anyway, I accepted the output of the process, re-edited my work and paid for another evaluation. (I can almost hear the plaintive cries of 'Sucker!'). Please check on iUinverse's claims in respect of publishing experience and know-how before consigning my observations to the 'deranged and deluded' file.

Anyway, the result was a much improved novel that is generally more marketable, which passed iUniverse's first quality filter and achieved their 'Editor's Choice' status. (Please check their web-site if you need to know what this is and where it might lead - I'd be interested in your observations).

Where Next?

Marketing! I'm pretty fortunate that my wife is a professional artist, so I've commissioned a set of paintings (including a superb cover graphic - email me if you want to see) to accompany me on some talks I intend to give, as well as for sale on the web site I'm busy with.

I've also submitted to Immanion press (does anyone know them - they're POD, but they look credible, honest and modestly successful for a small POD press). Please note - the search for a bona fide publisher does not cease when a writer takes the POD route - properly considered, it's an avenue of potential progress towards a greater goal.

Now this is NOT for everyone, and were I living in North America or Europe I'd probably not go this route. It'll be a hard road - so wish me well and I'll tell you how it all works out.

BEAST

[waylander]

Immanion Press is a legit and reasonably successful publisher of mainly dark fantasy/ supernatural material here in the UK. I've seen them at conventions and Storm Constantine is certainly a respectable author.

[JAK]

Velluminous Press seems to be gaining momentum as well

http://www.velluminous.com/

[Popeyesays]

Wachawant, what you're describing is a commercial independent publisher. The technology it uses to produce its books is irrelevant. You don't define a publisher by its printing technology, but by its business practices and the quality of its published books.

That said, simple economics dictates that a successful indie publisher is unlikely to be wholly POD-based. Success means larger print runs, and above 500 or so copies (or is it 1,000? My brain is slow today), offset is more economical.

- Victoria

Speaking from my experience in the print trade the advantage point for offset is about 1,000 copies. That's using paper plates, not metal. Metal plates are expensive but after about 4 or 5,000 copies the paper photographic plate is pretty worn. That doesn't mean you can't go to your original and shoot fresh plates, of course.

Regards,
Scott