What to do when unpublished MS is stolen

[jedimaster107]

I have searched and can't find anything on this. And I don't think anyone has addressed this. I know that when someone writes something down on paper or type it, you own the copyrights to it. but here is what I'm trying to find and like i said, i don't think anyone has addressed it.

What do you do when someone steals your unpublished ms? How do you prove you are the orginal owner of that story without hiring a laywer because you can't afford one?

[Medievalist]

First, you need to describe what you mean by "stolen."

Secondly, you need a lawyer who specializes in copyright.

Thirdly, you don't want to go into a lot of detail about the circumstances on a public forum.

Fourthly -- this is exceedingly rare, not very likely, and it almost always turns out to not be a copyright violation.

[MMcC]

If you are a member of the national writers union you have free representation. If not, there are places you can google who will rep you pro bono.

But atual theft of a manuscript is incredibly rare.

[jedimaster107]

This has never happened to me. It's just a question and answer i think that needs addressed.

All your suggetions have to do with lawyers. What i want to know is what if you can't afford a lawyer? Just let the person get away with stealing your work?

This is the biggest reason i won't let someone read my work. As much i would like too. My mother in law knew someone that this happened to. She couldn't afford a lawyer to fight it.

If you are a member of the national writers union you have free representation. If not, there are places you can google who will rep you pro bono.


I looked up the fees for this and i can't afford that. My husband and i are barrly keeping afloat as is.

Well i guess since i can't afford lawyers and or join the national writers union, i'm shit out of luck if someone steals one of my stories.

You guys say it's rare for this to happen. But I know someone who it happened to and it does happen. I guess if you're poor and can't afford to fight it, tough then. :cry:

[jedimaster107]

Thirdly, you don't want to go into a lot of detail about the circumstances on a public forum.


I wasn't going into detail. I just wanted to know how do you prove you are the orginal owner of the ms if it's stolen. Like i said, no one has addressed this from what i can find. And i think and even my husband agrees, this needs addressed. It feels, to me, that it's getting igored. And both responds have to do with lawyers.

WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD A LAWYER OR UNION DUES? WHAT DOES A POOR PERSON HAVE TO DO TO PROVE THEY ARE THE ORGINAL OWNER OF THE MS?

That's what's getting ignored. Sure someone who can afford it will hire a lawyer. But what about that person who is struggling to make ends meat and that person's ms is stolen. how does that person fight it?

[Mac H.]

What do you do when someone steals your unpublished ms? How do you prove you are the orginal owner of that story without hiring a laywer because you can't afford one?
To quote: http://www.copyright.org.au/G084.pdf (Yes, I know it is Australian - but the same principles apply)
It is rare to be in a position where you have to prove that you are the creator of something.

If there’s a dispute about who created something .. the most important evidence would usually be oral evidence from the creator and from people who were present when the material was being created or who saw early drafts. Other evidence may include drafts of the work.

If you are concerned that you might at some stage need to prove you own copyright in something you have created, any of the following procedures might help you ensure that you have some relevant evidence:
• keep dated drafts, plans, and outlines of the work;
• keep dated records of research done in creating the work;
• discuss the work with others, and/or show drafts or finished versions to others;
• keep written records of any agreements you make concerning creation of material or ownership of copyright in material.

Someone who takes legal action falsely claiming to own copyright runs the risk of serious legal consequences if he or she is found to have lied to a court.
Let's pretend there is a dispute between A & B over the authorship of a story.

* A's entire writing group states that they saw previous drafts, discussed changes, etc. In fact, they had to put up with 'A' droning on endlessly about this story for the past 3 years.
* A can produce comments from the online critique group
* A also has plenty of previous drafts, complete with typos. You can even see where she decided to get rid of an entire subplot, and merged two characters.
* A has notes from all the research she did on that obscure part of history.

* B claims that he wrote the story - but didn't keep any drafts, or discuss it with anyone else. Or do any research. It must have come to him in a single sitting.

Who would be believed?
If 'B' wanted to fake older evidence, it would be a nightmare. He'd have to carefully write in extra sections and characters in the same style, just so they could be cut out again! Over and over - basically writing a novel backwards. And then fake the time/date stamps on all 20-200 versions of the files in the correct order!

The solution is simple. Talk endlessly to everyone you know about your novel. Keep copies of earlier drafts with the date scribbled on them. Keep copies of critiques,

That's it. Oh - and stop worrying.

Good luck,

Mac

[giftedrhonda]

Well put, Mac.

[Siddow]

Yeah, what Mac said. Keep copies, let some people see them, email them to yourself (they're dated), heck, folks will say the poor man's copyright is useless, but if it makes you feel better, then mail a copy to yourself and don't open the envelope. Or you can always register it with the Copyright Office for a small fee.

And you can file a civil suit without a lawyer in the US. A lawyer knows the system better, sure, but you can always learn what you need to know. A good place to start would be www.copyright.gov. Then check with magistrate court (I think that's the right one) and find out the procedure for filing suit.

I don't think it's a matter of 'poor people are screwed'. All it takes is smarts and determination, and those are free.

And, if, say, it was JK Rowling who stole your manuscript, a lawyer would work on contigency. He won't get paid until you do. If there's a potential of a lot of money coming in, most lawyers won't ask for anything up front. It's the losing cases that they require a retainer. I had a friend who sued her employer, and because the case was so clear, she didn't come out of pocket with anything until the case was settled. She was poor no more. The lawyer took his 1/3.

[PattiTheWicked]

Also bear in mind that even if someone DOES steal a MS, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be able to sell it. The sorts of people who COULD sell it -- editors and agents -- won't steal your work, because their livelihood depends upon their integrity.


That's what's getting ignored. Sure someone who can afford it will hire a lawyer. But what about that person who is struggling to make ends meat and that person's ms is stolen. how does that person fight it?

Same way as someone who's Not Poor. You get a lawyer on retainer. It has nothing to do with "poor people get screwed, woe is me". If you have a case, it won't be an issue.

[Medievalist]

This has never happened to me. It's just a question and answer i think that needs addressed.

Oh good lord.

Yes. This has been addressed.

First of all, an unsold ms. is commercially valueless.

Agents and editors don't steal mss.

Secondly, keep your drafts, files and hardcopies, and date them.

Thirdly, if you have a good case, a lawyer takes the case on contingency--if you win, the lawyer is paid from the damages; if you lose, it doesn't cost you except for court fees, which are not much.

If it goes to trial, you are examined by both sides; you will be asked very detailed questions about how you wrote the piece, why you wrote it as you did, etc.

Someone will likely be called on as an expert witness to talk about your writing style, based on comparing the ms. with other things you've written.

[JanDarby]

I'm a lawyer. (Not giving legal advice here, just general information.) Lawyers are in the business of looking for risks and helping clients do a risk analysis and then take actions that balance the potential risks with the potential rewards.

When it comes to having an unknown author's manuscript stolen by anyone who could get it published, the risk is very, very low. As a lawyer, I'd never a tell a client there was zero risk, but in this scenario, truly, it's almost non-existent.

That's the shorthand version of the risk assessment for manuscript submission. And the only way to bring the risk down to zero is to not submit the manuscript anywhere. Which brings us to the other side of the equation -- the benefits that can accrue from accepting the risk and submitting the manuscript to someone who either can provide feedback to improve the story or can buy (or negotiate the purchase) of the manuscript.

Note that this risk analysis isn't particularly different from any other business transaction you may enter into. Let's say you buy something expensive at a store. There's a risk it'll be defective and the store won't honor its warranty of merchantability, and you'll need to either sue the store yourself or hire a lawyer (who's unlikely to take that type of case on a contingency basis).

The bottom line: there's risk in everything we do, from the minute we get up in the morning, until the minute we get up the next morning. We still do stuff, because the benefits of taking action outweigh the likely risks. We don't stop living our lives based on the possibility that we might be on the losing end of the risk/benefit scenario sometimes and will be unable to hire a lawyer (which is, really, the only reasonable thing to do if someone were to steal a manuscript and make huge amounts of money by publishing it, and in that situation, if the money involved were large enough, a lawyer might be willing to take it on a contingency fee basis).

So, yeah, even though I'm a professional worrier, I advise not worrying about things you can't control. If you let the fear of the manuscript being stolen prevent you from letting appropriate people read your manuscript, it will cripple your writing and your chances of ever being published.

JD

[aka eraser]

Heed these people young Jedi. In tune with The Force they are. Stolen your work will never be.

[Sheryl Nantus]

you might want to take the information your MIL is giving you with a grain of salt - everyone tends to think that *they* have the only take on a story or a twist on a tale and that somehow the Big Bad Industry has stolen it away from them.

[writeitdown]

I agree that agents or editors aren't going to steal your work.

As siddow stated: Or you can always register it with the Copyright Office for a small fee.

The very best line of defense in protecting your work is to register the work with the copyright office. :) Since I am dealing with some "issues" surrounding the book that I published (and have had to hire a lawyer) I have learned that the copyright office will stand behind me if (or when) my text is stolen. I was very impressed recently when I received a prompt reply from the copyright office in answer to my concerns about my work that I have registered there.

Your work is still your work even if you haven't registered it, but....and here's the big but, you must then prove it is your work. Obviously, this would likely be much more costly than had you registered the work in the first place. :eek:

If your work is registered with the copyright office the monetary damages for theft of your work is huge in comparison to those who have not registered their work.

The $45 fee for having your work registered and on file with the copyright office is well worth the protection of that work.:)

[Sohia Rose]

I agree that agents or editors aren't going to steal your work.

As siddow stated:

The very best line of defense in protecting your work is to register the work with the copyright office. :) Since I am dealing with some "issues" surrounding the book that I published (and have had to hire a lawyer) I have learned that the copyright office will stand behind me if (or when) my text is stolen. I was very impressed recently when I received a prompt reply from the copyright office in answer to my concerns about my work that I have registered there.

Your work is still your work even if you haven't registered it, but....and here's the big but, you must then prove it is your work. Obviously, this would likely be much more costly than had you registered the work in the first place. :eek:

If your work is registered with the copyright office the monetary damages for theft of your work is huge in comparison to those who have not registered their work.

The $45 fee for having your work registered and on file with the copyright office is well worth the protection of that work.:)

What if you're finished with a draft, then later, the work is edited, slightly re-written. Is it still under copyright? Or would one have to re-register? I've been following this thread; sorry for the "hit-and-run." :)

[aka eraser]

Some, perhaps many, publishers want nothing to do with previously-registered manuscripts. The dates of registration and publication can be years removed from each other, leaving prospective buyers to wonder why someone is flogging a four-year-old book as "new."

It also sends a clear signal to the agent/publisher that they're dealing with a nervous-nellie newbie. Most NNNs also suffer from Golden Word Syndrome, one of the banes of an editor's existence. They don't need the grief.

Why reduce your chances of publication because of the near non-existent possibility of manuscript theft? Let the publisher register the finished, edited product at the appropriate time and on their dime.

The only good reason I can think of for registering one's own copyright is if you're self-publishing.

[Medievalist]

What if you're finished with a draft, then later, the work is edited, slightly re-written. Is it still under copyright? Or would one have to re-register? I've been following this thread; sorry for the "hit-and-run." :)

It's likely a derivative work, and you need to re-register.

[DeadlyAccurate]

No one's going to steal your work, jedimaster107.

[Bufty]

Despite your MIL claims, it really isn't worth the effort of even thinking about, J.

[Myrddin]

You're tallking hypothetical, right?

If you're really concerned about this, here's a cheap way to cover yourself:

Mail yourself a copy of your manuscript (or partial). This dates the envelope. Leave it sealed. In the event someone steals and publishes your story, you have a dated version to take to a lawyer. At that point you'd be suing for damages and lost wages, of which the lawyer would get a cut.

But really, this isn't something to obsess over. Focus on your writing.

[Medievalist]

You're tallking hypothetical, right?

If you're really concerned about this, here's a cheap way to cover yourself:

Mail yourself a copy of your manuscript (or partial). This dates the envelope. Leave it sealed. In the event someone steals and publishes your story, you have a dated version to take to a lawyer. At that point you'd be suing for damages and lost wages, of which the lawyer would get a cut.

Dear sweet heavens, no. This does nothing, at all, but waste time, paper, and postage.

This is Poorman's Copyright, and It Doesn't Work. Read the FAQ (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845).

Really folks, you're making the copyright FAQ feel unloved.

[Pat~]

When my children were small, I used to obsess that because they were so obviously wonderful someone would surely want to kidnap them. I even wrote their names on their feet in magic marker when we went to Disneyworld. (I kid you not.) When I first started writing, I felt similarly about my writing 'babies.' But I'm a recovering obsessive today. I now know that both scenarios are rather unlikely--and while it's good to take proper precautions, it's not beneficial in any way to be so worried about it that you can't move forward in life. Follow the precautions in this thread, and you'll have nothing to worry about. :)

[RLB]

I even wrote their names on their feet in magic marker when we went to Disneyworld.

That rocks.

And I'm amazed my mother didn't think of that.

[maestrowork]

If it comes down to contesting in court, there is always trails -- notes, computer files, etc. that can serve as proofs.

But like others said, you don't really need to register copyright to protect yourself. And it's rare that someone will steal an unpublished ms. -- because it's a no win situation. The odds against getting the ms. published is against the perp, and just in case the perp does get the ms. published, the potential for lawsuit is often not worth the trouble. The publishing world is unforgiving when it comes to intellectual property theft and plagiarism. Most writers would rather have his or her own stuff published.

Publishers prefer to register copyright on a ms. that is ready to go -- like Frank said, one that has been contracted, edited, and finished. Not the third draft of some unpublished ms.

Some people do plagiarized other published work -- that's not unheard of, but usually the people will get caught, unless no one reads the work at all.

The best way to keep yourself protected is to keep records and leave trails. A mention of your ms. here, a few notes there, tape recordings and temporary files in between, etc. that show the progress of your writing. That's the best proof of writership as opposed to just a physical stack of paper or a single computer file.

[Bufty]

I don't make the slightest effort whatsoever to leave a trail.

Unless one deliberately goes about trying to erase all evidence of having slaved over one's novel - the trail will be there.

Why can't some Threads self-destruct?

[BenPanced]

I don't make the slightest effort whatsoever to leave a trail.

Unless one deliberately goes about trying to erase all evidence of having slaved over one's novel - the trail will be there.

Why can't some Threads self-destruct?
Yeah, CTRL-S helps create that trail automatically.

[Birol]

WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD A LAWYER OR UNION DUES? WHAT DOES A POOR PERSON HAVE TO DO TO PROVE THEY ARE THE ORGINAL OWNER OF THE MS?

What does a poor person who doesn't belong to a union do in any situation where legal representation is needed?

[MMcC]

Call your local bar. Call your local community center. There are pro-bono lawyers everywhere, and even a few national agencies who will represent artists for free.

Google, dude.

[johnrobison]

What does a poor person who doesn't belong to a union do in any situation where legal representation is needed?


Birol, a poor person does one of three things when they need legal representation:

1) They visit a legal aid office that provides advice to the poor and indigent.

2) They interest or befriend a lawyer who takes their case pro bono

3) They research the issues and represent themselves

[Birol]

Precisely. So if the OP ended up in the unlikely position of needing legal representation because of copyright violation, those would be their options.

[aka eraser]

Sure hope nobody steals this thread. It's got some of my best work on it.

I know!!*



*The above post and all previous posts are © aka eraser and ® AbsoluteWrite and remain their property solely, separately, togetherly and foreverly, so help me Shakespeare.

[Patricia]

Can we ban a mod for snarky remarks? :)

[JJ Cooper]

Sure hope nobody steals this thread. It's got some of my best work on it.

Snip



Chapter 1

"Sure hope nobody steals this thread. It's got some of my best work on it," he said. He stoked his bushy beard, looked in the mirror and marvelled at his deep green eyes.

Chapter 2 is the flashback. Going to check SYW for some ideas.

JJ

[Birol]

Can we ban a mod for snarky remarks? :)

You can't even ignore a mod, no matter how much they sometimes deserve it.

[Patricia]

Anyone hear anything? Did a mod say something? I didn't hear anything.

[PattiTheWicked]

Wow, Patricia, that's weird. There's a big empty space above your post and below JJ's.

[scarletpeaches]

Chapter 1

"Sure hope nobody steals this thread. It's got some of my best work on it," he said. He stoked his bushy beard, looked in the mirror and marvelled at his deep green eyes.

Chapter 2 is the flashback. Going to check SYW for some ideas.

JJ

Chapter Three:

When he woke up and realised it had all been a terrible dream, he was sick a little bit in his mouth.

[Patricia]

Wow, Patricia, that's weird. There's a big empty space above your post and below JJ's.

Patti, you noticed? You know what? I think the mods are trying to sneak in the back door here, migrating from "that other" thread over there, where they are invisible too. What do you think?

[BenPanced]

Can we ban a mod for snarky remarks? :)
No, but we can reprimand them with a firm shaking of the Stern Finger of Authority.

[Patricia]

No, but we can reprimand them with a firm shaking of the Stern Finger of Authority.

Okay, who has the "Stern Finger" in the house, and is not afraid to use it?

[JJ Cooper]

Chapter Three:

When he woke up and realised it had all been a terrible dream, he was sick a little bit in his mouth.

He slowly raised his head, shoulders, torso; quiety so that the jackhammers in his magnificent head would not be disturbed. Left foot slid over the edge of the bed, then right foot. Slowly, slowly, slowly he got up took thirteen paces on the well polished light teak coloured floorboards to the bathroom. Stepping on the bieige mat with his size ten feet, he stared lovingly into the mirror.

[benbradley]

I have searched and can't find anything on this. And I don't think anyone has addressed this. I know that when someone writes something down on paper or type it, you own the copyrights to it. but here is what I'm trying to find and like i said, i don't think anyone has addressed it.

What do you do when someone steals your unpublished ms? How do you prove you are the orginal owner of that story without hiring a laywer because you can't afford one?

When (NOT if!) your unpublished MS is stolen and then published, your best hope is that it sells like hotcakes. A lawyer then has something to sue over, and presuming there's any way you can reasonably show that you wrote it before it was published (like, maybe you had actually let someone READ it or at least part of it, and they can testify that the same part of the published book is essentially the same), then there will be a line of lawyers at your door, each saying why he is the best one to represent you, for only a percentage of your lawsuit winnings.

When poor people lose cases like this, it's not because they are poor, it's because they don't know how to stand up for themselves.

[scarletpeaches]

He slowly raised his head, shoulders, torso; quiety so that the jackhammers in his magnificent head would not be disturbed. Left foot slid over the edge of the bed, then right foot. Slowly, slowly, slowly he got up took thirteen paces on the well polished light teak coloured floorboards to the bathroom. Stepping on the bieige mat with his size ten feet, he stared lovingly into the mirror.

There, he saw his handsome features which reminded him of a rugged Harrison Ford.

Kate - for that was our hero's name - pulled on his jacket with patches at the elbows and hurried to the Louvre, praying that he arrived before the albino monk.

[benbradley]

Some, perhaps many, publishers want nothing to do with previously-registered manuscripts. The dates of registration and publication can be years removed from each other, leaving prospective buyers to wonder why someone is flogging a four-year-old book as "new."

It also sends a clear signal to the agent/publisher that they're dealing with a nervous-nellie newbie. Most NNNs also suffer from Golden Word Syndrome, one of the banes of an editor's existence. They don't need the grief.
But what if you're a "savvy paranoid" and actually spend the $45 to register your draft, you don't HAVE to tell the agent (or anyone) you registered it, do you? Not until the agent puts someone else's name on it and gets it published himself and then it sells like hotcakes...

Why reduce your chances of publication because of the near non-existent possibility of manuscript theft?
Amd presuming you don't "register and tell" (or whatever it is that happens in James Bond movies), why spend $45 because of the near non-existent possibility of manuscript theft?
Let the publisher register the finished, edited product at the appropriate time and on their dime.

The only good reason I can think of for registering one's own copyright is if you're self-publishing.

[benbradley]

There, he saw his handsome features which reminded him of a rugged Harrison Ford.

Kate - for that was our hero's name - pulled on his jacket with patches at the elbows and hurried to the Louvre, praying that he arrived before the albino monk.

A guy named Kate, huh? Girls will be boys and boys will be girls. Its a mixed up muddled up shook up world.

Hey, can we delete this thread? PublishAmerica might be reading...

[JJ Cooper]

There, he saw his handsome features which reminded him of a rugged Harrison Ford.

Kate - for that was our hero's name - pulled on his jacket with patches at the elbows and hurried to the Louvre, praying that he arrived before the albino monk.

But, before Kate got to the Louvre; he stopped off at the 7-11 for a coke, mars bar, all-american french hot-dog and a rubics cube. He knew he needed the rubics cube but didn't know why. He was puzzled.

[Siddow]

Call your local bar.

Ah, finally, the voice of reason! This is what I do whenever I find myself in a bit of a spot. But I don't just call. I get in a cab and go down there, where the music is pumping and the beer's a'flowing.

I think all big dilemmas should be solved in the bar.

[writeitdown]

When (NOT if!) your unpublished MS is stolen and then published, your best hope is that it sells like hotcakes. A lawyer then has something to sue over, and presuming there's any way you can reasonably show that you wrote it before it was published (like, maybe you had actually let someone READ it or at least part of it, and they can testify that the same part of the published book is essentially the same), then there will be a line of lawyers at your door, each saying why he is the best one to represent you, for only a percentage of your lawsuit winnings.

But, remember, lawyers aren't going to be nearly as interested in your case if you have not registered your work. I agree with keeping the $45 in your pocket if you are seeking a publisher for your work, as an agent/publisher isn't going to steal your work. If you are self publishing, however, spend the money. :e2cheer:

[amber_grosjean]

The cheapest way to "time stamp" anything you have written is to mail it to yourself and never open it. If this ever happens to you, you can prove you wrote it first. Sometimes two stories with close similarities can be written at the same time without being "stolen". It's frustrating but it is part of the writing life and there isn't anything writers can do about that, except for screaming at the top of our lungs in our basement. It does happen but not as often as you think.

If you really want someone to read your work, choose someone who you can trust, I mean really trust. Your spouse is a good choice. Close friends even work. Always ask for the original copy back when they are done too. If you feel better, you can ask them to sign something saying this is your original work with the date and have it notorized.

Anyone can scribble a date on a piece of paper saying it was written on that date. Unless, there is a technical expert who can prove how old the ink is, people will most likely believe that was when it was dated. My family dated some documents a few months before the actual date when my grandfather made his will because he had altimers. It does happen. Mailing it to yourself is the best proof a writer can use and it only costs the weight of the package.

[Dawno]

I'm sorry, Amber, but that's "the poor man's copyright" and it's a fallacy that's been addressed a number of times here - in this very thread, even.

here's a good example: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15371

It won't protect you at all. Please don't perpetuate it.

[Birol]

The cheapest way to "time stamp" anything you have written is to mail it to yourself and never open it. If this ever happens to you, you can prove you wrote it first.

No. No, NO, NO. This is known as the Poor Man's Copyright (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118227&postcount=216). It's a myth and has been debunked (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15371) around here several times. Please, please do not continue to propagate this misconception among writers. There are many ways to fake it and, in the US, it has no legal value (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=265041&postcount=11) whatsoever.

Mailing it to yourself is the best proof a writer can use and it only costs the weight of the package.

No. It's not. It's really, really not.

Please, read the FAQ (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845) before spreading these fallacies.

[amber_grosjean]

I apologize. I read that in many books on writing so I thought it was a good way for people with low income. I've never done that because I trust all the people who read my work and I don't worry about people taking my stories.

I really am sorry. If that idea has been proven wrong, I think those other writers should be told lol. Sorry.

[Birol]

And what books would those be, Amber? Titles and authors, please.

[amber_grosjean]

Sorry, it was almost 10 years ago when I read those books. I don't remember the titles or the authors. That part just stuck in my brain and I thought I was helping. Sorry. I won't do it again

[Dawno]

I apologize. I read that in many books on writing so I thought it was a good way for people with low income. I've never done that because I trust all the people who read my work and I don't worry about people taking my stories.

I really am sorry. If that idea has been proven wrong, I think those other writers should be told lol. Sorry.

In this post you undercut the previous posts by people who stated (and cited) that it *was* wrong, no if's about it. That's why we asked for the names of the books.

Sorry, it was almost 10 years ago when I read those books. I don't remember the titles or the authors. That part just stuck in my brain and I thought I was helping. Sorry. I won't do it again

I think it's safe to say that those books were wrong and at the very least were based on outdated opinions of the time.

We don't really want to seem like we're harping on you, but it's important that newbies who may only read the last posts in a thread don't get the wrong advice and act on it.

[amber_grosjean]

I understand that. I'm still considered a newbie. I don't know half of what I'm doing except for the writing part. That's all I do know. That's why I came here so I could learn and share the things that I've learned over the years. It makes me feel good because I know how hard it is and don't want others to be alone like I have been. I do know that it is hard to prove someone wrote something first unless you talk to people about it and can prove those discussions existed. Having some sort of documentation really does help. I also know that most writers don't steal other writers' works and that would be hard to do as well and it is a very rare thing when it does happen.

Besides, when you are poor, the library is the only source for reading material so you have to put faith in that and hope it isn't for nothing.

[Dawno]

Extracted from here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=265041&postcount=11Your file copy of the manuscript plus your regularly kept submission log are admissible evidence of the provenance of your manuscript now

Jaws is a lawyer specializing in publishing law. Let's take his word for it and leave it at that, ok?

[Patricia]

Am I missing something in this discussion, guys? I'm assuming that most computer users now have CD ROMS and can make back ups, which are dated. And what about the automatic save/back up function? My works are so documented as mine on my computers, that someone stealing them is the least of my worries.

[Maryn]

:hi: I'm the author you might've heard about, the one whose work was actually stolen and sold. It happened in an online writing group at Prodigy (which back then was like AOL), where someone liked a story I wrote enough to sell it to friends on AOL for a whopping $5 each for an e-copy. Apparently she made seven sales, and I was out $35. I consulted an attorney and together we determined that this was a small enough amount that it wasn't worth pursuing beyond a scary, official letter telling the thief to knock it off.

Since that time, I've become more selective about who sees my work. I trust my real-life writing group implicitly, and I feel safe posting short material in SYW, knowing that AW would not tolerate thievery. However, I no longer share my stuff with strangers at I-wanna-be-a-writer groups online.

Maryn, wiser

[jclarkdawe]

Simple way to keep a date on your work, as well as a backup in a secure location. Set up an email account with yahoo or somebody like that. Every day email yourself a copy of your manuscript, preferably with the title as the subject. This will create a documented trail of your writing, from beginning to publication.

There are also places where you can back up on line, which again will provide you with dates.

It also means when your computer bites the big one, and your backup disk isn't any better, you still have a copy of your work. Cheap and easy. Plus you have access to your document anywhere with anyone's computer.

I've got a record on each email I've sent out like this, and could easily print a hard copy. From there, it's just a matter of going through the records.

It also makes me view computer problems very benignly, as all I'm ever going to be out is the cost of a new computer.

Personally, I worry more about losing the work than it being stolen.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[ajkjd01]

If there's a potential of a lot of money coming in, most lawyers won't ask for anything up front. It's the losing cases that they require a retainer.

Yes, and no.

Some lawyers won't do contingency fee agreements. Ever. Regardless of whether or not they think it's a winning or losing case. Some lawyers have specific cases that they won't do for contingency fees. (Bankruptcy and criminal cases are the two biggies...for obvious reasons). The reason for the decision generally has more to do with situations where the attorney has been burned. So don't automatically assume that your case sucks because someone won't take it on a contingency fee basis. It's a good reason for an attorney to refuse to take it for a contingency fee, but not the only reason. Remember on a contingency fee case that the attorney bears the costs of filing and taking depositions and other expenses until there's an award of damages. That can get expensive in a serious hurry. And if you don't believe me, go watch the movie "A Civil Action" that came out a few years ago with John Travolta. That movie did a pretty good job of showing why attorneys might balk at contingency fees even if they think they have a good case. Those attorneys went completely broke and way into debt to pull it off.

If you sincerely think you've got a problem and need counsel, and don't feel that the suggestions above work (and I'm not a copyright lawyer, so don't ask me!) you might also see if your individual state has any arts foundations or government created arts boards. They might have referrals they can make or ideas of organizations that can help you get the help you need.