I'm curious if anyone here does not use beta readers before submitting. How has this worked out for you? Are there any reasons why you choose not to use betas? Just curious. Thanks!
Does anyone NOT use beta readers?
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I have a very good crit group. I have no intention of using betas, ever, though my agent and husband get to give everything I write a once over.
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Sure. I use them when I feel I need to. Sometimes I get it wrong but I have some things out there in the small press that were not beta-ed before submission.
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I did not use beta readers with any of my first books. When I wrote them I didn't even know that such a thing as beta readers existed, or how to find them; I got published anyway and my editor helped me revise the book. Same with the two follow-up books.
The only novel I used a beta reader for was my very last one, and even then I only had one reader; I read his book in return, but even then it already had an agent so I didn't count as a beta reader. I guess I'm relying on getting revision advice from agents or editors!
If I write another novel I don't know if I will look for beta readers. I find it a big thing to ask of another person, to read my long, long manuscripts and ask for feedback. Then there is the matter of reading their mss in return, and I really, really don't have the time. I don't even have the time to read novels at the moment!
(*I forgot: I asked for readers for Mahabharata, which is a different matter altogether as I intend self-pubbing that one.*)
I have only tried it twice. It didn't work out. I doubt I'll bother with it again.
The first time I did it everybody was saying, "I just love all your writing about Mazatlan and Carnival and Mexican politics, but why did you have to have all the sex and bodies piling up at the end?"
I ended up sending it to Clive Cussler's agent who said, "Lose all the travelogue and cut to the chase of who killed the mayor and does he get the girl."
My readers, by the way, were almost entirely journalists, editors, and literature teachers.
So what's the point? I'm in charge of my work and can call the shots myself, is what it comes down to.
The first time I did it everybody was saying, "I just love all your writing about Mazatlan and Carnival and Mexican politics, but why did you have to have all the sex and bodies piling up at the end?"
I ended up sending it to Clive Cussler's agent who said, "Lose all the travelogue and cut to the chase of who killed the mayor and does he get the girl."
My readers, by the way, were almost entirely journalists, editors, and literature teachers.
So what's the point? I'm in charge of my work and can call the shots myself, is what it comes down to.
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It doesn't mean betas are all bad. It just happens that your betas didn't really offer you any solid help. Finding the right betas is almost as much work as finding the right doctor. Mine worked out really well.
The thing is if we call all the shots, we really can't objectively assess the quality and the marketability of our work, as you found out. It would be too late when it gets to the hands of agents and editors. Good betas will be the first to point out the flaws in your work.
I've let a couple of people read extracts of my WIPs, but they're friends, not beta readers - I wouldn't know where to find a beta reader, and I haven't joined the local writing circle because none of the ladies (and it is all ladies) read SF or fantasy, or know anything about the genres.
I don't. I hadn't heard of beta before I came to AW.
But I might give it a try some time in the future, when I produce something I dare show other people, and I gain enough confidence to hear what they've got to say (I don't mind rejections from editors and other faceless creatures, it's the face to face interactions with people I actually know that kills me). I have a couple of friends who have read the two first pages of my WIP, and it was interesting to hear how they understood the text and they had a couple of valid points on how I could improve, so I might ask them to beta for me when I finish the thing and have edited it a few times.
But I might give it a try some time in the future, when I produce something I dare show other people, and I gain enough confidence to hear what they've got to say (I don't mind rejections from editors and other faceless creatures, it's the face to face interactions with people I actually know that kills me). I have a couple of friends who have read the two first pages of my WIP, and it was interesting to hear how they understood the text and they had a couple of valid points on how I could improve, so I might ask them to beta for me when I finish the thing and have edited it a few times.
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Um, what are crit groups, friends and husbands reading the book, if not betas? As I understand it a beta reader is someone who reads the book and gives feedback.
My novel is in it's last stages. I'm technically letting it sit for awhile. My best friend just had surgery and asked to read it because she's dying of boredom. It was one of the best things I could have done. I expected an "I liked it, it was good." response, but got honest feedback that made me rewrite the ending. The second person to read it will be my roommate who is waiting to hack it apart with glee 
. After he's done, I'll rewrite again and then it's off to a group of about 6 that I've explained how to critique to. They know I'm looking for honest feedback and I think they'll come through. I'd be nervous to send it without any feedback! I want to put my best foot forward when it comes to getting an agent!
. After he's done, I'll rewrite again and then it's off to a group of about 6 that I've explained how to critique to. They know I'm looking for honest feedback and I think they'll come through. I'd be nervous to send it without any feedback! I want to put my best foot forward when it comes to getting an agent!
I have some very good beta readers that supply excellent feedback on first and second chapters. They are all so busy, and have been, that I never ask for full reads. I usually get enough up front info on what I'm doing wrong consistently, so that I can use it for the rest of the manuscript.
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I was going to say, those are betas, even if they are just friends and families. Now, are they effective? That's another question.When I first started writing, I sent two chapters to a colleague of mine who was an avid reader and very interested in what I was writing. Her comments opened the door to find future betas (unfortunately, she quit working there). She was very candid. She said, "Your writing is very good, but where is the plot?" Of course, she was right.
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Better to use strangers on websites, actually. For me, this also allows me to hear from people in the market area, not the area the book is set.
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I used betas for my first book (though I didn't know what betas were, then). It wasn't very helpful, so I haven't used them for years. Just recently I traded novels with a friend. I'll see how it goes...
I happen to have a terrific friend
who is also a writer, so we have our own mini crit circle, but sometimes I would like to have another point of view. I've been considering having a beta reader, especially after getting two rejection letters and not an inkling of what went wrong with queries and partials
who is also a writer, so we have our own mini crit circle, but sometimes I would like to have another point of view. I've been considering having a beta reader, especially after getting two rejection letters and not an inkling of what went wrong with queries and partials
I submitted after allowing friends/family to read. I've got nothing but form rejections. I submitted the first chapter here on SYW and received honest feedback: my first chapter was confusing. I found a beta and she's helped me work through some serious flaws in my design. I wish I hadn't submitted already; it's so much better now that I know what to revise!
I agree w/ javili, it is better to use strangers on the web. They don't know you and won't try to soften the blow. If they don't like it, they'll tell you.
Betas
I see no sense at all in using beta readers, except perhaps as King does, which is essentially for an idiot read. It was a beta reader who caught the classic mistake of a farmer shooting "peasants" rather than "pheasants" in one of his novels.
But, really, why on earth would I give my manuscript to people who with no expertise at all when I can send it directly to an agent or an editor?
Every new writer out there seems to claim a great critique group, or great beta readers, but I've seen ten writers harmed by such people for every one I've seen helped. I've seen too many writers with talent who quit because they listened to beta readers or critiquers, and I've seen very good manuscripts totally ruined by well-meaning, but ignorant advice.
It used to be that writers at least found pro level writers or editors to read their work, and this makes a bit of sense. The internet is not always a good thing, and this is one area, beta readers and critique groups, where I think it sucks.
I'm eternally grateful that darned few of the classic writers found the need to pass along their manuscripts to beta readers.
I see no sense at all in using beta readers, except perhaps as King does, which is essentially for an idiot read. It was a beta reader who caught the classic mistake of a farmer shooting "peasants" rather than "pheasants" in one of his novels.
But, really, why on earth would I give my manuscript to people who with no expertise at all when I can send it directly to an agent or an editor?
Every new writer out there seems to claim a great critique group, or great beta readers, but I've seen ten writers harmed by such people for every one I've seen helped. I've seen too many writers with talent who quit because they listened to beta readers or critiquers, and I've seen very good manuscripts totally ruined by well-meaning, but ignorant advice.
It used to be that writers at least found pro level writers or editors to read their work, and this makes a bit of sense. The internet is not always a good thing, and this is one area, beta readers and critique groups, where I think it sucks.
I'm eternally grateful that darned few of the classic writers found the need to pass along their manuscripts to beta readers.
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The answer is, because the manuscript is *so* rough otherwise that said editor would roll their eyes and give up within two pages. Yes, I admit to that. When I think it isn't that bad I don't use a beta.
I don't have beta readers. A couple of my short stories my husband read, after i nagged at him to do it. but my novel, he won't read. he'll help out if i have a couple of lines to maybe a couple (1-5 pages) i need help on. The reason why he won't is he can't stand reading novels. He reads comics and plus his reading rate is like mine, slow..... My mother-in-law read the first nine chapters of the novel. but she's not that good at grammer too.
A couple people offered to read my stories but i keep being told by my hubby and mother-in-law and a few people at work not to let anyone read them becuase that person could steal them.
This happened to a freind of my mother-in-law. the friend wrote a story or a peom, can't remember which. She let a freind read it and that friend told her the story or poem was trash and not to send it in. Some time late, my mother-in-law's freind looked in a magazine and found her story/poem in there with the friends' name on it. the friend stoled it.
So i'm stuck. hubby gets pissed when i have him read my stories. Oh he can't read anything that is concitered scary. he hates scray movies and books.
I'm just trying to over my work the best i can. i catch some of the problems i'm having, present and past tense, etc. but i'm not sure i'm getting all of them.
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I have two different kinds of beta readers:
I have five or six writers who read and edit my novel and give me invaluable advice about plot, character, structure, pacing...everything.
And then I have my best friend, not a writer, who reads what I'm writing as soon as it's out of my head. He reads bit by bit, whatever I've finished each day. He doesn't give advice. He tells me I'm doing great, and he loves it, and I should keep working, and I'm the best writer EVER, and when will I have more for him to read?
I think everyone needs the second kind.
I have five or six writers who read and edit my novel and give me invaluable advice about plot, character, structure, pacing...everything.
And then I have my best friend, not a writer, who reads what I'm writing as soon as it's out of my head. He reads bit by bit, whatever I've finished each day. He doesn't give advice. He tells me I'm doing great, and he loves it, and I should keep working, and I'm the best writer EVER, and when will I have more for him to read?
I think everyone needs the second kind.
I think all beta readers should be this kind. The first kind are always wrong, even when they're right. The second kind are always right, even when they're wrong.
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My friends always see my work before I send it out because I'm writing it for them. If I manage to sell my novel, cheers. I like money. But I'm not hanging all my hopes on it. I finish projects because my friends ask me to.
Some of them also happen to be very good betas. You don't have to be a published author to know how a story goes together. Some of my betas don't even write much fiction. They all read a lot, though. And they all know how to offer concrete suggestions. I found them much more helpful than any crit group I've ever been in.
The trick to making good use of betas is to ask specific questions. Even someone who doesn't know how to beta at all can give you useful help if you ask the right questions. Not "Did you like it?" but "who was your favorite character?" "What do you think the MC's greatest strength is? Their weakness?" "put an X at the end of the line you're on every time you set the book down." "Did the dialog sound realistic and believable? was it funny?" "When you finish each chapter, summarize the plot to that point and tell me how you think it's going to end."
I like to be in the room with my betas while they read, if they're ok with that. That way I can ask them what was funny when they laugh and they can ask me questions when they're confused about something. Same question from several people= I need to clarify.
Some of them also happen to be very good betas. You don't have to be a published author to know how a story goes together. Some of my betas don't even write much fiction. They all read a lot, though. And they all know how to offer concrete suggestions. I found them much more helpful than any crit group I've ever been in.
The trick to making good use of betas is to ask specific questions. Even someone who doesn't know how to beta at all can give you useful help if you ask the right questions. Not "Did you like it?" but "who was your favorite character?" "What do you think the MC's greatest strength is? Their weakness?" "put an X at the end of the line you're on every time you set the book down." "Did the dialog sound realistic and believable? was it funny?" "When you finish each chapter, summarize the plot to that point and tell me how you think it's going to end."
I like to be in the room with my betas while they read, if they're ok with that. That way I can ask them what was funny when they laugh and they can ask me questions when they're confused about something. Same question from several people= I need to clarify.
Wouldn't you rather have them read a published novel?
But to paraphrase the Gump, helpful is as helpful does. If they're really helping, good for you. This should, of course, mean the novel is now publishable.
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