2 new Beta readers have chapter 1 and are not responding...

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

I'm looking for some ideas of how to handle this very awkward situation.

The first chapter of my novel is my best and it contains almost all the characters, the setting, the time frame and the basic theme and 'feeling'.
I have 2 very dependable beta readers who have been with me through many other books and have been invaluable on this one - I wouldn't have been able to write it without them.

However, they are also great friends of mine and we talk all the time about my novel so they know everything that's not written down as well. Because they are so intimate with the story, I thought it might be good to get some fresh eyes on the book and most of my friends and acquaintances are anxious to read it - I made the mistake of giving out the first chapter to 3 people who know very little about it. People who were excited I was writing something and asked me if they could take a look. (I say a 'mistake' because I wasn't prepared for what's happened)

A month + later and two had not even contacted me about the chapter and one had simply said she was reading it. So last week I sent out a friendly reminder and asked for them to simply tell me how far they got and if there was anything major they didn't like so far. One responded and the feedback was awesome - still nothing from the other two.

Now, these are people that I have talked to about other things, and have seen both on line (Instant messaging) and one I've even talked to on the phone, the two of us trying to find a time to get together. But for some reason they are not responding.

I know they might be busy or maybe even feel bad that they didn't live up to the promise they made to read and give feedback. I don't want to pressure them, I like them both a lot and I feel this is my mistake for putting myself out there - but I'm having a really hard time letting it go or knowing what to do about it.

Oh, the other thing that gives me a bellyache is that both of these friends have worked on movies. One in the past and one right now, and I don't want to think they would pass it around to a friend who would steal it, but it's crossed my mind. If someone used even a little bit of my first chapter for the basis of something I feel it would be impossible for the rest of my book to be salvaged - everything of importance is in that first chapter.

So, any advice or comments or support?? I don't want to write another reminder and sound pathetic or put pressure on them, but I'm sort of obsessing about this and can't see clearly to know what to do.

Julie Worth · Jul 28, 2007

If you talked to them, why on earth didn't you ask them about it?

Bufty · Jul 28, 2007

I would simply talk to them straight out. It's you who's making the mystery out of it.

And as for pinching characters, this is your first novel and you have first-novel phobia. I see from your earlier posts that one of your five main characters is a gladiator in a live webcast - that's been done before as I recall. Arnie, was it?

Talk to your pals - there will be a simple reason, I'm sure. Either they're too busy, or they're wondering how to get out of it.

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

I don't want to pressure them for one and wanted to give them time to read it, there's nothing worse than getting someone's work and having them beg for feedback every single time you talk to them...

When I did say hi on MSN and ask the one guy if he got my email, he didn't respond. I don't want to pester them... But Bufty if you're saying that I should keep emailing, calling and MSNing them (they are not local) until I get a response, I guess I could do that. It's just that in my mind that would risk alienating them completely...

BTW, Julie, I'm very sensitive about this so the 'why on earth' type of attitude isn't going to help me much.

Julie Worth · Jul 28, 2007

You don't want to pester them, but here you are suggesting to the entire planet they may be stealing it?

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

Nice... I said it crossed my mind.

Obviously posting this here was a mistake... Now I wish there was a way to delete a thread.

Julie Worth · Jul 28, 2007

Ask a mod. They can do it.

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

Do you have a problem with me or something Ms. Julie? Because I haven't been on this board very long and mostly people here seem to be helpful and supportive but to get all this crap from you, I don't understand it. You see someone is down and you decide to kick them, is that fun for you?

Maybe I'll leave this thread and just ignore you from now on...

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

Bufty, Thanks for your response, I realized I didn't completely address what you brought up - I was distracted by other goings on.

Bufty said:
And as for pinching characters, this is your first novel and you have first-novel phobia. I see from your earlier posts that one of your five main characters is a gladiator in a live webcast - that's been done before as I recall. Arnie, was it?

It's not that character I'm mostly concerned about... it's the way I present it and perspective of the main character (not the gladiator) and the other various interactions of the different characters in this chapter that work to set the entire book up. It took me a year to come up with that opening chapter that starts the whole thing off... I have had about 5 different beginning chapters before I found one I like.

Azraelsbane · Jul 28, 2007

Hi there,

Don't sweat it. Just take a deep breath and you'll feel better

I'm sure the people here aren't out to get you, you're just very stressed with all your worries about plot/character stealing, and it's making you read things as mean when they're not really that bad.

First off, I know it must be stressful (I gave a beta reader my entire novel once, and they never got back with me, but 3 years later they haven't published it or tried to as far as I know). Second, even though I'm sure a lot of your characters and some plot description appeared in chapter 1, if they can build an entire novel off of your first chapter, well... it wouldn't be your novel anymore. I'm sure not everything is in your first chapter, and only you can get inside your characters' heads and make them have the personalities you know them to have. People might be able to do it after reading a good chunk of your work (not 1 chapter), but you should still know them better than anyone else.

Also, if everything really is in chapter 1, chances are it's not quite as good as you think it to be (no offense), at least not as a novel length work. Things have to be spread out, and if everything that was needed to make a good novel was in chapter 1, the word count on most of them would be significantly lower

Good luck, and I hope you get those responses.

eqb · Jul 28, 2007

JEMcGee said:
So, any advice or comments or support?? I don't want to write another reminder and sound pathetic or put pressure on them, but I'm sort of obsessing about this and can't see clearly to know what to do.

It happens all the time--Life intervenes, or the reader discovers they aren't interesting in critiquing--whatever. If you're uncomfortable sending them another reminder, then just assume they won't be sending you any feedback. If you still want more feedback, find another reader or two.

And Bufty is right, you're suffering first-novel phobia.

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

Azraelsbane, Thanks for your response. Someone copying my work is not really THAT big of a concern, it just crossed my mind. *L*

The focus I wanted this thread to be on was how should I approach my friends about responding, or should I just let it go? As you can see I am stressed and you are right, I do read into things when I'm sensitive. I don't want to alienate them by hounding them.

I can't believe your beta reader didn't respond after a year!! How did you handle that? *L* Did it bother you at first and then you just let it go? I mean at some point I'm going to have to just accept I wont' get a response and will have to forget about it. But when is that time?

****
Beth, thanks... maybe one more is the way to go and then just drop it. I do have many other people who are interested and one of the three was excellent in her critique... making me rethink a lot of things.

I'll probably wait until I go through the major edit I'm planning though before I pick new people.

In the future I'm going to be VERY careful about who gets to read what.

Azraelsbane · Jul 28, 2007

JEMcGee said:
I can't believe your beta reader didn't respond after a year!! How did you handle that? *L* Did it bother you at first and then you just let it go? I mean at some point I'm going to have to just accept I wont' get a response and will have to forget about it. But when is that time?

It was a little rough, my first 3 beta readers were a college freshman, a presbyterian minister, and my best friend. The college freshman (I didn't know him well at all, which is why I picked him) never got back to me. I tried asking politely via email, met with him in person once, a bunch of stuff... But in the end I think he just didn't even read it. It bugged me, but the others got back with me (surprisingly enough, the minister loved it and my friend found it to be severely lacking...I had expected it to be the other way around due to her being my best friend

). Anyway, now, 6 beta readers and a lot of rewriting later, I'm about ready to query it (I'm really a coward, and I've been sitting on this thing for years).

For a chapter length, I'd say, after 3 months of asking, chances are you're not getting a response, but don't let it hold up your writing for 3 months. Personally, I'd start forgetting about it if they didn't respond within a week. Go off the responses you have, and rework it with those. Anything longer is just stalling your work. And yeah, it stings when someone says they're interested and then can't be bothered, but someone above said it, life happens. And to be perfectly honest, shiny pennies are enough to distract me, so I can sorta understand.

eqb · Jul 28, 2007

JEMcGee said:
I'll probably wait until I go through the major edit I'm planning though before I pick new people.

That sounds like an excellent plan.

In the future I'm going to be VERY careful about who gets to read what.

Careful is good, but remember that it's not unusual to have one or more readers drop out from reading your WIP, and it's not because they are bad, untrustworthy people. As Bufty said, sometimes a reader discovers the WIP really isn't their cuppa, and they can't figure out how to say that without hurting the writer's feelings. Or Life Intervenes in such a way that they aren't answering email. Or their spam filter went haywire. Or....

Well, you get the idea. I figure I'll lose at least two readers for any given round of feedback. (Happened to me just this week.)

Sassee · Jul 28, 2007

JEMcGee, Julie was not trying to offend or irritate you. Please don't read what isn't in the text. If you come to a public forum to ask advice, please take the advice with an open mind and a positive attitude. We aren't out to get you... quite the opposite, we're here to help!

(Well, I might be, since I'm a ninja and all, but that's beside the point. *mystical hand wave* I am not the bunny you are searching for...)

ChaosTitan · Jul 28, 2007

I'm going to chime in and agree with those who suggest dropping them as betas. It's one chapter. Six weeks seems excessive. Even when my betas are lagging behind, they email me and let me know of their progress, so I'm not left dangling on a hook.

Finding a good stable of beta readers is a tricky situation. Some folks go through dozens before they find those suitable to their writing and timetable. It is often a mistake to have good friends beta read your stuff, especially if you want an honest, gut-wrenching crit. Ego-stroking is nice, but I prefer to see my work shredded a few times.

People who were excited I was writing something and asked me if they could take a look.

I'm curious: when they asked to take a look, did you specifically tell them that you were expecting a critique? Many people in my life know that I write, and several have asked to read things I've written. I tend to say no (personal foible), but if I did say yes, I wouldn't expect any sort of crit unless they offered.

Your friends asked to read your chapter. They either haven't read it yet, or didn't like it and don't know how to tell you. And there's nothing wrong with them not liking it. Not every book is right for ever reader.

Good luck with your hunt for new betas.

maestrowork · Jul 28, 2007

Let it go for another month -- seriously, people are busy and your ms. is not their first priority. Maybe not even their 12th. So have some patience, especially if you value their opinions. If not, then you don't have to bother, right?

Then after another month, just call them and be forthright about it -- "What do you think about my chapter? Did you have time to read it?" Be nice and cordial, but be direct.

If they say, "I haven't read it yet" then maybe you can ask them to read it because you need to "move forward." And if they say "I don't know if I have the time" then you know you really should move on. It's not even a full ms.; it's just one or two chapters. It takes maybe less than 15 minutes to read it. Two months is long enough time, even if they're super busy.

But don't hold grudges. Just move on and you know next time you won't ask them again. They can still be your friends.

Marian Perera · Jul 28, 2007

At one place where I worked, I mentioned to a co-worker that I wrote stories and she asked to read one. I happily printed one out and gave it to her. It sat on her desk for about three months while she rested her coffee mug on it. Finally I guess it was so coffee-saturated that it was replaced by a proper coaster.

On the other side of the spectrum, I have a great beta reader who responds quickly, gives me excellent suggestions for editing and has an amusing, down-to-earth way of critiquing my manuscripts. When I finished my last novel, I sent him a Barnes & Noble gift card to ensure that he would be around for the next novel (that's part of the care & feeding of critters

).

Carmy · Jul 28, 2007

I don't know who your Beta readers are but have you considered the time of year? If the Beta's have children, they're probably home from school and keeping Mom busy. The Beta may have gone away on holiday, or may be working longer hours to cover for colleagues on holiday. One of my critique partners' mother was diagnosed with cancer and given six months to live. I wonder how she'd feel if I kept hassling her.

Life interrupts our own writing and it can interrupt the time we need for critiques and comments. Before you jump off the deep end, treat your Beta's as people and ask why there's a delay.

Have some patience and, above all, have faith in other writers and realize few bother to plagiarize. Personally, nothing anyone asks me to critique is anywhere near as good as my own ideas. I think most true writers have that touch of arrogance.

rwam · Jul 28, 2007

Part of the thing is, it's hard being 'pushy' with someone who's doing you a favor. I've been in the same position and have learned from it.

Here's how I handle the whole beta reader thing:
1) If it's family/friend, I only let them read it if they ask. The only feedback I ask for is: "I'm looking for typo's, grammaticals and any sentence you had to read twice in order to 'get'. I'm not really looking for an opinion on whether you liked it or not, though." This takes loads of pressure off them.
2) If it's not family/friend, I only let voracious readers read my stuff. I tell them I want their honest opinion on the work, and I also say something like "I'm going to be submitting this soon, so I really need the feedback within x weeks/months." Hence, the voracious reader requirement....someone who plows through 1 or more novels a week can certainly read your ms in a month and you don't feel as bad setting a deadline...if it takes them longer, well, then that's a clue they lost interest in it or plain didn't like it.

Whether you're worried about these betas stealing your idea, just remember this: anyone stupid enough to steal an idea probably couldn't write a novel or screenplay as well as you.

lfraser · Jul 28, 2007

Bear in mind that people are busy, too. I'm critiquing a novel for someone right now, and I'm not going about it very quickly, but life does intervene, what with making a living and taking care of a house and doing my own writing, etc. I have very little down time, and I use some of that to just be still. I actually quite like the premise of the story I'm critiquing, and a lot of the writing is decent, so it isn't that I'm not enjoyig the process. But -- I'm busy. That may be what's happening.

Hillgate · Jul 28, 2007

JEMcGee said:
I'm looking for some ideas of how to handle this very awkward situation.

The first chapter of my novel is my best and it contains almost all the characters, the setting, the time frame and the basic theme and 'feeling'.
I have 2 very dependable beta readers who have been with me through many other books and have been invaluable on this one - I wouldn't have been able to write it without them.

However, they are also great friends of mine and we talk all the time about my novel so they know everything that's not written down as well. Because they are so intimate with the story, I thought it might be good to get some fresh eyes on the book and most of my friends and acquaintances are anxious to read it - I made the mistake of giving out the first chapter to 3 people who know very little about it. People who were excited I was writing something and asked me if they could take a look. (I say a 'mistake' because I wasn't prepared for what's happened)

A month + later and two had not even contacted me about the chapter and one had simply said she was reading it. So last week I sent out a friendly reminder and asked for them to simply tell me how far they got and if there was anything major they didn't like so far. One responded and the feedback was awesome - still nothing from the other two.

Now, these are people that I have talked to about other things, and have seen both on line (Instant messaging) and one I've even talked to on the phone, the two of us trying to find a time to get together. But for some reason they are not responding.

I know they might be busy or maybe even feel bad that they didn't live up to the promise they made to read and give feedback. I don't want to pressure them, I like them both a lot and I feel this is my mistake for putting myself out there - but I'm having a really hard time letting it go or knowing what to do about it.

Oh, the other thing that gives me a bellyache is that both of these friends have worked on movies. One in the past and one right now, and I don't want to think they would pass it around to a friend who would steal it, but it's crossed my mind. If someone used even a little bit of my first chapter for the basis of something I feel it would be impossible for the rest of my book to be salvaged - everything of importance is in that first chapter.

So, any advice or comments or support?? I don't want to write another reminder and sound pathetic or put pressure on them, but I'm sort of obsessing about this and can't see clearly to know what to do.

These guys sound like agents

maddythemad · Jul 28, 2007

It's always tough when you open up and share your work, and then you never hear back from the person, but I've been on the other end of the unfortunate situation too, and often it has nothing to do with the book. I might have just read a similar book and now I just can't stand the idea of reading ANOTHER fantasy/romance/middle-grade/whatever, no matter how well-written, or maybe I agreed to read your book and then became super-busy and am now embarassed to tell you that I can't read it.

So don't sweat it. They definitely did not steal your story. They probably just haven't gotten around to reading it, and are a bit embarassed. Stay friends with them if you like them personally, and don't let this cause a rift in your friendship.

JEMcGee · Jul 28, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
I tried asking politely via email, met with him in person once, a bunch of stuff... But in the end I think he just didn't even read it.

Beth Bernobich said:
Careful is good, but remember that it's not unusual to have one or more readers drop out from reading your WIP, and it's not because they are bad, untrustworthy people. As Bufty said, sometimes a reader discovers the WIP really isn't their cuppa, and they can't figure out how to say that without hurting the writer's feelings. Or Life Intervenes in such a way that they aren't answering email. Or their spam filter went haywire. Or....

Well, you get the idea. I figure I'll lose at least two readers for any given round of feedback. (Happened to me just this week.)

You know, I wouldn't mind if they didn't read it!

I just want to know what's going on. It's the awkwardness of not knowing and feeling like it might prevent them from wanting to talk to me at all if they think I'm panting for a response. I value them as friends more than beta readers and I'm just trying to figure out how to let it go, or if this is common.

Azraelsbane said:
... don't let it hold up your writing for 3 months. Personally, I'd start forgetting about it if they didn't respond within a week. Go off the responses you have, and rework it with those. Anything longer is just stalling your work.

My situation is that I have 2-3 more chapters to write before the first book of 3 is done and unfortunately my kids are home for the summer and my time to write is gone until September - but I am considering work on chopping the chapters up into smaller sizes, and I have a lot of time to think how to do that, if it's necessary. I thought these guys would be able to help me figure that out...

ChaosTitan said:
I'm going to chime in and agree with those who suggest dropping them as betas. It's one chapter. Six weeks seems excessive. Even when my betas are lagging behind, they email me and let me know of their progress, so I'm not left dangling on a hook.

Finding a good stable of beta readers is a tricky situation. Some folks go through dozens before they find those suitable to their writing and timetable. It is often a mistake to have good friends beta read your stuff, especially if you want an honest, gut-wrenching crit. Ego-stroking is nice, but I prefer to see my work shredded a few times.

I will most definitely not be giving the two that did not respond any more chapters.

I feel so blessed for the two awesome beta readers I have that are working, these three were just the 'fresh eyes' I thought I could use.

ChaosTitan said:
I'm curious: when they asked to take a look, did you specifically tell them that you were expecting a critique? Many people in my life know that I write, and several have asked to read things I've written. I tend to say no (personal foible), but if I did say yes, I wouldn't expect any sort of crit unless they offered.

It was made very clear before I gave it to them that I needed fresh eyes and feedback and one of the folks who didn't respond went so far to promise me he would as part of his 'begging' to read it.

ChaosTitan said:
Your friends asked to read your chapter. They either haven't read it yet, or didn't like it and don't know how to tell you. And there's nothing wrong with them not liking it. Not every book is right for ever reader.

I totally agree! And I even said that in my letter to them, if they didn't have time or didn't like it I don't mind at all, I just needed to know how far they got and what they didn't like about it. I even said that up front, that if they found it unreadable there was no pressure - just let me know.

I just want to know! *LOL*

maestrowork said:
It's not even a full ms.; it's just one or two chapters. It takes maybe less than 15 minutes to read it. Two months is long enough time, even if they're super busy.

Unfortunately the first chapter is 20 pages long, so it would take a couple of hours to read... which is why I'm considering chopping it up, even though it's one scene from one POV...

maestrowork said:
But don't hold grudges. Just move on and you know next time you won't ask them again. They can still be your friends.

Oh no, no, no!! I'm not mad at them or anything at all. I love them both and I'm worried that my book will come between us if I get all weird and they feel pressure about it. I'd rather just be able to let it go and forget about it, except that I sent last weeks email out begging for a response.

I'm probably worrying too much, which is why I wanted to see how others handle these things. This thread has become very therapeutic.

Carmy said:
Life interrupts our own writing and it can interrupt the time we need for critiques and comments. Before you jump off the deep end, treat your Beta's as people and ask why there's a delay.

I did and two ignored me which made me nuts, and convinced me to start this thread rather than stalk them.

Have some patience and, above all, have faith in other writers and realize few bother to plagiarize. Personally, nothing anyone asks me to critique is anywhere near as good as my own ideas. I think most true writers have that touch of arrogance.

Yeah, I'm not THAT worried about the stealing thing - I know my friends would NEVER EVER steal it - It just crossed my mind that they might share it with someone else who might lift a few ideas. I know that's paranoid and am not really dwelling on it - I mentioned it off hand and it seems to be part of my first post that has continued to linger...

Hillgate said:
These guys sound like agents

*heheh*I had the same thought! But they are my friends...

maddythemad said:
It's always tough when you open up and share your work, and then you never hear back from the person, but I've been on the other end of the unfortunate situation too, and often it has nothing to do with the book. I might have just read a similar book and now I just can't stand the idea of reading ANOTHER fantasy/romance/middle-grade/whatever, no matter how well-written, or maybe I agreed to read your book and then became super-busy and am now embarassed to tell you that I can't read it.

This is why I don't beta read for other people - I can't do it and I know I can't do it. I've been asked to read cover letters and what not and it's SO HARD. The ONLY people I will beta read for are my 2 loyal awesome beta's - both because I value them so much AND because they are fantastic writers so it's when I make the time to do it it's extremely enjoyable.

maddythemad said:
They probably just haven't gotten around to reading it, and are a bit embarassed. Stay friends with them if you like them personally, and don't let this cause a rift in your friendship.

As I've said, it's because I don't want there to be a rift that I want to handle this right... meaning, to figure out the best way to approach them on it or how to have the strength to not approach them on it.

I think I am getting closer, and I thank you all so much!!

javili · Jul 28, 2007

This is so standard I can't beleive a writer would get upset about it.
Remember that you have asked them for a favor. How down on them can you get for not doing something for you for free?

One possibility... they find the work uninteresting. Or they'd have wizzed through and want to see more. But are to nice to tell you they didn't care about it.

I recently gave a friend some chapters to read...IN WHICH HE IS A MAIN CHARACTER, and so are a lot of people he knows. Since I was visiting him in another town I bought a new printer cartridge and ream of paper and ran it off on his printer. He never got back to me. I figure there is a good reason for it. He's a thoughtless, lazy asshole.

(And are on some website somewhere asking people What should I do about a writer who gave me something to read and don't want to tell them it sucked?

2 new Beta readers have chapter 1 and are not responding...

JEMcGee

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

JEMcGee

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

JEMcGee

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

JEMcGee

JEMcGee

Azraelsbane

Agony is defeat

eqb

I write novels

JEMcGee

Azraelsbane

Agony is defeat

eqb

I write novels

Sassee

Momma Wolf

ChaosTitan

Around

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Marian Perera

starting over

Carmy

rwam

lfraser

Bored and Frantic

Hillgate

On location

maddythemad

JEMcGee

javili