help! imagery or poetic device?

[licity-lieu]

Ok, poetry experts help me out on this one. I'm teaching poetry this term to some older students and I'm a little rusty. I'm writing a worksheet and came across this conundrum:

The line 'Ghosts' trousers, like the dangle of hung men' is an example of:
a) similie
b)metaphor
c)personification
d)alliteration

Technically I'm thinking that both A and C are correct. Therefore, to avoid confusion, I should write the question as:

'The line 'Ghosts' trousers, like the dangle of hung men' is an example of what form of poetic imagery? A: simile

OR

'The line 'Ghosts' trousers, like the dangle of hung men' is an example of what form of poetic device? A: personification.

Am I correct in this assumption? Seeking clarification, anyone?

[Ziljon]

When you say "the dangle of hung men" are you referring to men that are swinging from the gallows, or men with very large packages?

[licity-lieu]

When you say "the dangle of hung men" are you referring to men that are swinging from the gallows, or men with very large packages?

The former. Where your mind at? :D

[Medievalist]

It's a simile, not personification.

Simile is pretty easy to spot by looking for "like," or "as."

Personification has to do with the non-human thing being described as if it were human. Give me a minute, and I'll put up an old handout.

This might help (http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/english10a/figures.html).

[licity-lieu]

Wow, thanks for that hand out, one for the old resource collection. BUT, isnt it also personification? because it does describes the trousers as having a human quality (hung men) Students are very likely to say that the line is an example of both. How does one choose? Or is that the complexity of poetry?

Hmmm... just as an aside. Personification can also be classified as poetic imagery, right? On the other hand, when we refer to poetic devices we are talking about the mechanics of poetry, those language features that bring rhythm and rhyme such as alliteration and assonance.

Once again: over to you guy's. I'm just a humble prose person.

[licity-lieu]

Ok, so here's another line from the same poem:

(they are) 'Ranging the pavements of their pasturage' (they= prostitutes)

This line is clearly a metaphor because it compares their area of range to a pasture (implying they're animls) BUT; the repetition of the P is also an example of alliteration. Therefore the line is an eaxample of metaphor and alliteration. Can it be both?

eek! put me out of my misery

[Writer???]

'Ranging the pavements of their pasturage'

Has aliteration, assonance, metaphor and imagery.

Repetition of the same vowel in the same syllable is assonance. Imagery is invoked by the implication of "pasturing animals" in relation to the street-walking prostitutes. It doesn't come right out and call them animals, that is alluded to in the metaphor and you are left to "imagine" a herd of grazing "whatever".

Any line of poetry can have any number of poetic devices within it.

And I'm no expert so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting. Feel free to ignore.

[licity-lieu]

Thanks writer. I thought as much. Dang poetry is complex! So the question really should be: 'the line is an example of two poetic devices. These are: bla bla.

[Medievalist]

Wow, thanks for that hand out, one for the old resource collection. BUT, isnt it also personification? because it does describes the trousers as having a human quality (hung men) Students are very likely to say that the line is an example of both. How does one choose? Or is that the complexity of poetry?

It's not personification, because many other critters, and objects, are hung.

Trousers are hung, in closets. It's not markedly "human."

You could, if you wanted, make a case for analogy, or even extended metaphor; I'd have to see the whole poem.


Hmmm... just as an aside. Personification can also be classified as poetic imagery, right? On the other hand, when we refer to poetic devices we are talking about the mechanics of poetry, those language features that bring rhythm and rhyme such as alliteration and assonance.

The really big group, and the most appropriate labels for all such things, would be rhetorical figures.

You could also go with literary devices.

Imagery is a sub-category of literary device.

You want some helpful books about this stuff?

Once again: over to you guy's. I'm just a humble prose person.

None of these, with the possible exception of rhyme, are restriction to poetry.

All of them are used, all the time, in prose, too.

[licity-lieu]

<It's not personification, because many other critters, and objects, are hung.Trousers are hung, in closets. It's not markedly "human.">

Yes , I see your point, brilliant!

<None of these, with the possible exception of rhyme, are restriction to poetry.All of them are used, all the time, in prose, too.>

True; though usually in school ( Australian high school) we concentrate on narrative structure, themes, tone, characterisation etc. when we're looking at prose. Generally speaking poetry is the text form we use when we want students to look specifically at the language devices. At least, that's how we try to categorise it for our teaching. But overall, yes, I always point students to imagery (especially simile and metaphor, and of course symbolism) in prose.

I have to admit, sub categories etc. make my brain bleed. I'm taken away from the intuitive element of literature (if there's such a thing). Some have a knack for it; I'm afraid it doesn't always come easily to me. For linguists, such as yourself, it must be music to your ears ;)

Thanks so much for your help :)

[Writer???]

No, in the example of the "pasturage" line there are four (more actually), not two, poetic devices. And, depending on how the preceding line was written, or if this is the first line of a stanza and the last line of the previous is actually part of this one, there are five devices.

Bah bah bah
The street-walking prostitutes,

Ranging the pavements of their pasturage
Bleet out their calls to the passers-by.

would be an example of "enjambment". The thought, and sentence structure of a line is carried over to the next line or stanza.

Is this line rhymed with any other?
Is it cross-rhymed?
Is it separated out as a mono-stich? (I doubt it).

It is comprised of ten syllables.
Is this a syllabic line or is there a specific meter and rhythm to it?

It has a trochaic feel to it but it doesn't scan completely trochaic. The three main words are
Ranging = pyrric
Pavements = trochaic
Pasturage = dactylic

throw in "the, of, their" and it could be seen as iambic pentameter I suppose, but I wouldn't scan it that way.

Regardless, the line has "some" form of meter even if it's only syllable count. As for rhythm, it's either contrived or non-existent.

But, there's always a but, because of the word choice and the aliteration and assonance, it does have a certain cadence, it flows ok but has a certain jarring to it with the "pavement" and "pasturage", this is called "cocaphony" which, if used intentionally, is also a device.

So, how many devices you got going here? If you're trying to get them to learn all they can from this line, certainly more than two.

[Medievalist]

For linguists, such as yourself, it must be music to your ears ;)

I'm not a linguist. Really! You'll get me in trouble with the real linguists saying that ;)

I'm a medievalist, mostly, and a philologist. I've taught English lit to undergrads for a lot of years though.

Thanks so much for your help :)

You're more than welcome.

[Hillgate]

If you're teaching poetry to older students, I would stick to the classics such as John Donne, Andrew Marvell, Alexander Pope, Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfrid Owen, John Betjeman and (for the difficult classes) T S Eliot.

Things dangling like hanged men (it should NOT be 'hung' - therein lies the ambiguity) and tarts cruising pavements would have been dealt with far better by these luminaries than the poet you quote. Try 'The Rape of the Lock' for a tongue in cheek masterpiece.

After all, you don't want your students getting into bad habits!

[licity-lieu]

If you're teaching poetry to older students, I would stick to the classics such as John Donne, Andrew Marvell, Alexander Pope, Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfrid Owen, John Betjeman and (for the difficult classes) T S Eliot.

Things dangling like hanged men (it should NOT be 'hung' - therein lies the ambiguity) and tarts cruising pavements would have been dealt with far better by these luminaries than the poet you quote. Try 'The Rape of the Lock' for a tongue in cheek masterpiece.

After all, you don't want your students getting into bad habits!

The poet is a classic Australian poet by the name of Kenneth Slessor. Seniors study this poet, and those you mention, for their finals.

Here's the complete poem:It's subject is one of Sydney's famous city suburbs, Kings Cross; a red light district. Slessor wrote it about 70 years ago.

William Street

The red globe of light, the liquor green,
the pulsing arrows and the running fire
spilt on the stones, go deeper than a stream;
You find this ugly, I find it lovely

Ghosts' trousers, like the dangle of hung men,
in pawn-shop windows, bumping knee by knee,
but none inside to suffer or condemn;
You find this ugly, I find it lovely.

Smells rich and rasping, smoke and fat and fish
and puffs of paraffin that crimp the nose,
of grease that blesses onions with a hiss;
You find it ugly, I find it lovely.

The dips and molls, with flip and shiny gaze
(death at their elbows, hunger at their heels)
Ranging the pavements of their pasturage;
You Find this ugly, I find it lovely .

For those familair with this place, it's spot on--even if it was written years ago. Should have posted it sooner.

[William Haskins]

It's not personification, because many other critters, and objects, are hung.

damn straight.

this thread makes me sad.

[Medievalist]

If you're teaching poetry to older students, I would stick to the classics such as John Donne, Andrew Marvell, Alexander Pope, Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfrid Owen, John Betjeman and (for the difficult classes) T S Eliot.

Things dangling like hanged men (it should NOT be 'hung' - therein lies the ambiguity) and tarts cruising pavements would have been dealt with far better by these luminaries than the poet you quote. Try 'The Rape of the Lock' for a tongue in cheek masterpiece.

It should be hung, poetically and grammatically.

Hung works because of the ambiguity--texts thrive on ambiguity, particularly poetry. That's the reader's job, to notice and reflect and figure it out--and be aware that a good poem, a good text, allows for a multiplicity of readings.

If the text supports it, a reading is viable.

[licity-lieu]

texts thrive on ambiguity, particularly poetry. That's the reader's job, to notice and reflect and figure it out--and be aware that a good poem, a good text, allows for a multiplicity of readings.

If the text supports it, a reading is viable.

Amen to that! I love to teach (and read) poetry for this exact reason.

[Medievalist]

Amen to that! I love to teach (and read) poetry for this exact reason.

You might want to look at Richard Hugo's poem "Degrees of Gray" as an interesting companion poem. You'll find it here (http://members.aol.com/JoanDaugh/poems.html).

[wordsheff]

It's both, but more simile, so just remove that option of personification from the abcd checklist.

I'm little confused as to how you're teaching this and coming here for the answer to that.

[wordsheff]

damn straight.

this thread makes me sad.

Makes me very confused.

[licity-lieu]

It's both, but more simile, so just remove that option of personification from the abcd checklist.

I'm little confused as to how you're teaching this and coming here for the answer to that.

As I said--I'm on the rusty side when it comes to seniors. Better to ask than to guess then to teach it incorrectly.

sheesh!:D

[Lyxdeslic]

As I said--I'm on the rusty side when it comes to seniors. Better to ask than to guess then to teach it incorrectly.

sheesh!:DLike for instance someone named...ahem...Lyx incorrectly teaching someone named Licity all about passive construction.:D

Hey Licity, how've ya been, "mate-ette?" :)

Lyx

[licity-lieu]

Like for instance someone named...ahem...Lyx incorrectly teaching someone named Licity all about passive construction.:D

Hey Licity, how've ya been, "mate-ette?" :)

Lyx

Exactly! A blind leading the blind moment. ;) It's what I consider to be the beauty of this here humble forum, a place where we continue to learn new stuff every day. Good for you Lyx... was wondering where you got to :D