Piracy

IrishScribbler said:

He argued back that the only reason people are more aware of piracy in the arts is because "rappers are complaining that they can't make the payment on their new Porsche," and he claims "piracy will be compensated."

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Your brother hit the mark right there.

But seriously, I never dabble in piracy. I agree that, as an artistic practitioner myself, the author of the piece is entitled to the fruits of their labour and talent. There are exceptions, in my opinion. Andy Worhol's films are not worthy of royalties, although his paintings are. That's because his films were not only filmed very cheaply, but with minimal difficulty it would seem. The work needs to express the hardship that the artist suffered to deliver the final product.

I also like the idea of ownership. If I were to illegally download material, it is merely a cluster of files on my computer. They do not exist; they are not composed of physical matter. You could say I'm something of a collector. I take pride in what I own.

Theft is theft.

That's what I told my kids when they said they were about to download music from the Net.

I agree with callalily. It doesn't matter if we're talking about JK Rowling who has 2.5 billion dollars-- she still deserves to be paid for every book bought. Same with movies and music. Stealing something-- even if it's not a physical object-- is illegal and, more importantly, it's wrong.

I'll be honest: If my book was freely being seeded around the internet while it was also a published work in stores, I'd be thrilled.

The only media that is readily downloaded is already famous, or well known, media. Media that is selling.

If the case that it is only pirated and not selling (however unlikely that may be) I won't blame my poor sales on the pirates. It's not as though all legal book buyers suddenly pirated a novel. If, in fact, my sales are horrible and I'm being downloaded across the internet, I'd expect a huge sales spike.

So, no, I don't see anyone who wasn't going to buy my book anyway downloading it as money lost.

It's not like we don't have libraries or Google Books or other sources of free literature.

I know I'm an underdog in this one so I won't condone it for anyone else. But feel free to pirate my book and talk about it you like it.

I don't like the system we have set up right now, it not only encourages piracy, it encourages exploitation by producers and publishers of the artists whose work they are selling.

I'd like a system where art was free but you had the option to support the artists you would like to have more work from - in other words, if I could be sure that my money was going to the artist, I'd be more than willing to pay $20 for a CD I love or $10 to go to see a movie that's awesome.

But I know it is eaten up by a bunch of suits that squash the genuine original work out there in hopes of selling marketable packaged crap.

Hope is on the horizon, as the internet is providing a medium where artists can set up their websites and individuals can pay directly to the artist they want to support.

However, if people like your brother continue to take advantage of the internet then artists won't be able to survive on their art alone and will have to do something else to make money, meaning they will create less of the work we love.

When you pay for art and information you enjoy, you support the creation of more of it. If you stop supporting it, you will have less to enjoy. Or none.

IrishScribbler said:

Why would there be a sales spike, though, if they already have your book for free?

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John is saying people generally wouldn't download a copy of a book even for free unless it were already popular (which most consumers equate to desirable).

Go to http://soundclick.com or http://garageband.com or similar mp3 host sites, there's LOTS of music (much of it as "good" as anything in the top 40) you can listen to and download for FREE, LEGALLY. But most people only want to hear stuff that's played on the radio, or(apparently like the OP's brother) released on a Major Label (at my last count there were only five).

If there is a form of media I want then I will buy it however I will admit to downloading media for several reasons.

Firstly, films, I will download films to watch until I can get my hands on an original. For example, the Lord of the Rings trilogy were amazing. I only have a limited amount of time on my hands and also have children and a lack of money. So, after watching the film in the cinema I will then download the film so I can watch it again until the DVD hits the shelves where I will buy it.

Other times I will download a film that I'm not particularly keen on and not likely to go and see at the cinema. If however I enjoy it then I will buy it, therfore being able to download the film in the first place has created a sale.

Games, I will download. However, there are certain games that I know I will play a lot and I buy these. I sit and wait for them to be released and there is no question about buying them. Due to the small amount of time I have I will install and play downloaded games but I get a level through them and then don't play them anymore. It's more a case of checking a game that others, particularly my mates, are playing and it then lets me stay in the loop. I'm currently paying for a subscription to LotR Online despite not having time to play it for the last couple of months so I am not adverse to paying for something, I just want to know if it's good and worth the cash.

Books, well I have a few but they are reference material really. Mainly roleplaying games but ones that I have.

At the end of the day I can't afford everything I want unless I go into debt like a lot of people around me. I don't want that but some things I feel I'd rather not miss out on. The righteous here would say that you should miss out and I respect you for doing it but I'm greedy and will pay for those that I think are worth it and download the rest and sometimes suprised into buying something I've downloaded.

PhatDad said:

At the end of the day I can't afford everything I want unless I go into debt like a lot of people around me. I don't want that but some things I feel I'd rather not miss out on. The righteous here would say that you should miss out and I respect you for doing it but I'm greedy and will pay for those that I think are worth it and download the rest and sometimes suprised into buying something I've downloaded.

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This is pretty much how I see what I do. I don't actually download anything, but I do have quite a few CDs copied from friends and family on my computer. However, the number copied isn't even close to the number I've bought. And if I hadn't copied them, I still wouldn't have bought them, so there would be no difference in revenue for the artist.

If I can't afford a DVD, I wait until I can afford it or scrape up a few bucks to rent it. If I can't afford a book I want, I get it from the library or borrow it from a friend. If I can't afford a 99cent download of a song I like--well, come on, that's just pathetic. If I don't have a buck in Paypal or in the bank account attached to my Paypal account, I obviously don't need to be buying anything except food with the money I do have.

I don't steal. It infuriates me that other people do, because ultimately it only drives up prices for honest people like me.

Entertainment is a luxury. If you can't afford it, save up. If you can afford it, pay for it as a mark of respect to the entertainer/artist. And if it's not yet available, be patient until it is; you're not "owed" anything just because you're not adult enough to wait for it to be officially released.

Saanen said:

If I can't afford a DVD, I wait until I can afford it or scrape up a few bucks to rent it. If I can't afford a book I want, I get it from the library or borrow it from a friend. If I can't afford a 99cent download of a song I like--well, come on, that's just pathetic. If I don't have a buck in Paypal or in the bank account attached to my Paypal account, I obviously don't need to be buying anything except food with the money I do have.

I don't steal. It infuriates me that other people do, because ultimately it only drives up prices for honest people like me.

Entertainment is a luxury. If you can't afford it, save up. If you can afford it, pay for it as a mark of respect to the entertainer/artist. And if it's not yet available, be patient until it is; you're not "owed" anything just because you're not adult enough to wait for it to be officially released.

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Doesn't the borrowing a book from a friend match the borrowing the book from the internet? Someone somewhere has paid for the book that appears online that you borrow. The author is still unlikely to get paid whether you borrow from a friend or download it.

IrishScribbler said:

You put so eloquently what I spent an hour and a half trying to explain to my brother. Of course, it probably didn't help that he wasn't really listening.

In fact, may I quote you in the post I'm writing on my blog about piracy? (Feel free to say no, but I'm not going to mention you without your permission!)

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*LOL* That would have been sort of ironic... But certainly you may quote me! Let me know when it's up so I can take a peek.


Something crossed my mind here about music... does anyone watch youtube videos? I love to see the old 80's videos that aren't really available anywhere and I have loved seeing the videos of bands that I don't know very well. I wasn't a big Linkin Park fan until I saw the videos they've been putting up. Granted, they are doing it themselves, so that's a totally different animal - but I have miked my speakers to record their songs because I can't afford their CD right now. But because they have given away their stuff for free, and I love it so much, it's at the top of my list of CD's to buy.

Benbradley, thanks for those links! I actually really love to listen to music that isn't on the radio - if it's good. But finding it isn't always easy. Adam Crossley comes to mind - his stuff is incredible and I've never heard him on the radio - I heard on of his songs on a Law and Order episode and did an internet search to find out who it was. I've done the miking of my speakers to lift stuff from his myspace page and fully intend to buy his cd when I can afford it.

In a way, piracy works a bit like these personal websites and youtube channels - it gets work out there to more people, sort of like libraries provide a way to borrow books and the authors can never get paid for every instance of a person reading their book. The artists who really love what they do want their work out there to share with as many people as possible - they just want to be compensated for it so they can keep doing it. Those that do it for the money alone generally don't end up putting out original quality work anyway. At least IMO.

But the problem comes when people ONLY pirate art and never pay back into the system. And unfortunately I think there is a growing 'entitlement' attitude from everything from housing to medical care to entertainment. Having systems in place where something is either free or the price is set by someone besides consumers means that individuals can't decide what they think is a reasonable value and the quality goes down and the price goes up and there is less available.

JEMcGee said:

In a way, piracy works a bit like these personal websites and youtube channels - it gets work out there to more people, sort of like libraries provide a way to borrow books and the authors will never get paid for. The artists who really love what they do want their work out there to share with as many people as possible - they just want to be compensated for it so they can keep doing it. Those that do it for the money alone generally don't end up putting out original quality work anyway. At least IMO.

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Exactly. I must agree with this.

One of my issues with piracy is that it devalues art. That alone is enough for me not to favour piracy.

I also don't favour greed. Stealing just because you haven't got the money to get your hands on what you want is wrong, no matter what. The library is a great sources, and at least the writer gets paid for the book you borrow. And I don't know about the US or UK system om libraries, but in Scandinavia money are paid out to compensate for the assumed loss of income. Roughly 10 million dollars are yearly put in to several foundations that benefit writers.

IrishScribbler said:

Why would there be a sales spike, though, if they already have your book for free?

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Because Pirates don't live in a vacuum. Take you, and your brother. Let's say you brother played a pirated song on his computer and you heard it and really liked it. You want to get it and you've never heard it before.

Are you going to pirate it or are you going to buy it?

Really. It's free advertising.

PhatDad said:

Doesn't the borrowing a book from a friend match the borrowing the book from the internet? Someone somewhere has paid for the book that appears online that you borrow. The author is still unlikely to get paid whether you borrow from a friend or download it.

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You could say the same thing about libraries with that argument. The library bought the book I'm borrowing--obviously that means downloading a pirated version of a book someone somewhere probably bought is no worse than checking a book out of a library, right?

The big difference is, I give the book back to the library (or friend) when I'm done reading it. If I keep a book I borrowed from a friend, she no longer has the book and if she wants to read it, she has to get it back from me or go get another copy. The person who puts a pirated copy online gets to keep the original no matter how many people download it.

Well, for musicians, they actually make more money doing live shows. Much more money. That's why Prince recently gave away his full CD through a UK newspaper.

Your brother is an imbecile, and he won't get it until HE gets ripped off for his work. Unfortunately, it's the mindset now, especially among young people whose lives are public on the Net. They do believe that information should be free, and that includes the arts and music. They are willing to pay $600 for a iPhone and $50 for Internet access but since they're paying that money, everything should be free.

Hang out on IMDB for a while and you can see a lot of younger folks have no qualms about downloading movies so they don't have to pay to see them. When confronted, they believe they have the right to free content and they're not hurting anyone. "Movies stars and filmmakers are making millions anyway." It's a truth to them. I honestly don't know what can be done to change that mindset.

As far as HP book is concerned, I don't think it hurts Rowling or Scholastic. In fact, I do think the curiosity, etc. is good for business -- it's free advertising and publicity. The book sold more than 8 million copies in 24 hours. And fans are going to buy the book no matter what. And if someone downloads a copy and read it, he or she might really like it and go look for the previous books. It's only good for business in that way.

Not that I think piracy is good -- not at all. But in Rowling's case, it might actually turn out to be a good thing for them.

PhatDad said:

I'm greedy and will pay for those that I think are worth it and download the rest and sometimes suprised into buying something I've downloaded.

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And that justifies what? Because you're greedy so it's okay to steal because you want something and you can't afford it?

People really don't understand the concept of stealing because these things are not "physical." If you take a shirt from A&F without paying, you are stealing. What's the difference of downloading a song without paying? And those of us who don't believe in stealing is "righteous"?

What's next? It's lovely to plagiarize someone because, you know, stealing isn't bad. Everyone does it. We are all greedy, so what's the difference? Right?

Doesn't the borrowing a book from a friend match the borrowing the book from the internet? Someone somewhere has paid for the book that appears online that you borrow. The author is still unlikely to get paid whether you borrow from a friend or download it.

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No, sir. Borrowing from a friend means you return it. There's only ONE copy. Your friend paid for that ONE copy. Downloading a song from your friend means you're DUPLICATING it. Now both of you have a copy EACH, and both of you can listen to it anytime you want, but only one was paid for.

There's a difference between swiping a shirt from the shop and borrowing it from your friend for a night out.

I hope you see the difference.

I don't mind people lending my book to their friends -- of course, I would prefer them telling their friends to buy a copy. But no, it's okay. I give out free copies, too. But I do have a problem if they xerox or scan the thing and then distribute it to multiple people so they don't have to buy it. I didn't spend four years of my life working on that book so that people can rip me off.

Downloading music for me is an introduction to an artist. It's introduced me to SO many artists I never would have thought of otherwise, because they aren't on the major labels and they aren't easy to find.

Then, I get paid, and I go out and buy their CD. So they are being compensated. A lot of lesser known, indie artists actually approve of filesharing, because it allows their work to become much more widely known than it might have been without the internet, and free downloading.

Plus I'm going to go on tons of band pilgrimmages when I have the money. So they get my money then, too.

If the 30-second clip on Amazon doesn't grab me, I don't buy it. Kinda like a hook for a new paperback. I can tell in 30 seconds. Don't all musicians now have clips on their site, or their MySpace or both? Isn't that what those are for--to see if you like the song and then pay them for their talent and hard work?

I find new authors the same way--the library here has an online book-a-day club (dear reader.com). They post a bit from a new book every day for a week. The last one I loved (Brian Keene--horror) I went from the exceprt to his website, and then bought his book.

There is always a simple way to rationalize theft. I steal a candy bar from 7-Eleven because after all, it's owned by a huge rich multinational corporation, so poo on them, right? Unauthorized downloading of copyrighted material is theft, and no matter how you rationalize it, if you do it, you're a criminal.

I'm guessing that everyone on this thread who justifies their theft of music, text or movies, doesn't make a living yet from writing. Well, I do. From writing and art. When someone steals one of my images it isn't as if they would have paid for it otherwise. But they're still taking from me without permission.

Just because an artist or software developer or other content creator is already successful is no justification for stealing their work. Where I live, Hong Kong, is a perfect example. It used to be one of the top places in the world for movie production: 200+ original movies a year produced in Hong Kong. Thanks to illegally copied DVDs and illegal movie downloads, movie makers no longer can turn a profit from anything other than major blockbusters. In the past ten years, the number of productions made in Hong Kong has dwindled to under 50 a year. Cinemas closing down, pay scales in the industry dropping. Not because of lack of originality or competition from American-made schlock - that was always there - but entirely because of piracy. Same with the local pop music industry. Only the biggest blandest middle-of-the-road stars make any money. The second-tier acts, the innovators and creative ones, no longer have a market. All because of piracy. No record company will release their work because if it gets at all popular it will be bootlegged.

Even happened to me. I designed a very successful t-shirt. Probably the most popular t-shirt design in Hong Kong history. Millions of copies sold! Guess how many I got paid for? 1000 copies! The other millions were all bootlegs, sold for around US$1.25 each. I asked the original shirt maker why he didn't sue the pirates. There were too many of them, and by then the public wouldn't pay more than US$1.25 for them anyway.

Screw you, if you illegally download music, movies, text or software. No matter what your justification - "no time, just trying out, same thing as borrowing from a friend, the bugger is rich anyway." Screw you.

I am a published e-author, so forigive me if I'm hard-core when I say PIRACY IS THEFT.

The whole issue really ticks me off. I've found some of my e-pubbed material FOR SALE ON EBAY BEFORE. NOw think about it--someone OTHER than my publisher offering downloads of MY work for LESS than what my publisher's price is. Perhaps someone can explain to me how this ISN'T theft?

The only media that is readily downloaded is already famous, or well known, media. Media that is selling.

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Bull. My stuff isn't famous, but someone still thinks it's a great idea to buy my books for 3.99 or whatever and then sell downloads of them for 99 cents. Oh, and my e-book royalty rates don't apply to that.

You could say the same thing about libraries with that argument. The library bought the book I'm borrowing--obviously that means downloading a pirated version of a book someone somewhere probably bought is no worse than checking a book out of a library, right?

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Uh, no. If someone BORROWS a book, they give it back. If someone STEALS a book, they keep it. Thieves keeping books=no sales.

I'm greedy and will pay for those that I think are worth it and download the rest and sometimes suprised into buying something I've downloaded.

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And this is supposed to make me feel better? Look, I'm NOT greedy--but then I don't think it's greedy to be compensated for your work. If someone stole my car and decided they liked it--then went to a car dealership and bought one just like it what benefit am I getting from it?

Look, piracy is theft. Pure and simple. If you download a copy of a book, you are stealing. There's no two ways about it. Same thing for a movie, vid game, or music. If something is offered as a free download then THAT is intended to be advertising--or it's already in the public domain. The SFWA has a very pointed statement on e-piracy that can be read at this link

Not too long ago, several of the members of my crit group found stories of theirs on a blog. These stories had been pirated from the magazines that had printed them and posted by the blogger as his own work. It was an ugly reminder of how far some e-pirates will go. (I blogged about it here) According to the SFWA:

Electronic piracy, or e-piracy, is the theft of electronic rights from writers and artists. E-theft occurs when a party, without authorization from the copyright owner, makes an electronic copy of a work, and causes it to be available to others. It does not matter if this is done by the transfer of files from person to person, or if the work is posted to the Internet. It is still theft.

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That sums up my feeling adequately. If you don't have enough money to download my books, then enter one of my contests. I give away copies. If you accept a pirated copy of my book, then you're an e-pirate plain and simple.

And that is NOT okay.