Another Beta Reader question

[ElonnaT]

Sorry for such a newbie question, but how do you get beta readers? Do you just ask people you know to read your work? Do you look specifically for people who know grammar and such well? Or just anyone who at least can give feedback on the enjoyment of reading the story? A little of both? Do you need only one beta reader? Or should you try to have mulitple readers? How soon into the work should you have a beta reader begin reading, beginning if possible or not until the ms is complete?

OK, I guess I have asked enough of the "I should already know that" questions, but I appreciate any information/advice anyone can give.

[Yeshanu]

Hmm...

This is from my own experience only, on my first novel, but...

1) Who should you ask?

Depends on your needs. If you're awful at spelling and grammar, and that's the kind of feedback you want, choose someone who is good in those areas.

If you want someone to say they loved your story (we all need ego strokes now and then) choose someone who will say that to you.

If you want someone to give you feedback on plot, characterization, and general structure, choose someone (preferrably with some writing experience) who reads in your genre.

I've had multiple beta readers right from the beginning, and it's worked well for me. I take each reader's comments in light of what the others are telling me, as well as what my own intuition is saying.

2) When should you involve beta readers in the process?

I'm sure some people are going to say, "Not until you're finished at least the first draft." I didn't wait that long, and that's the only reason why I have a completed first draft at this time -- they kept bugging me for more, so I kept producing more. If having criticism at an early stage is going to choke your writing, wait. If it's going to prod you to produce more, then involve them early in the process. Whatever works.

3) Where do you find your beta readers?

Do you have friends who read widely in your genre? Teachers who are willing to crit for spelling and grammar? These are possible sources.

Also, requesting a mentor on the Mentors board, or posting some of your work in the Share Your Work forum might hook you up with someone who would be willing to work with you on a longer-term basis. I've been lucky to find a crit partner this way, and have also volunteered to work with a couple of other writers.

Finally, I've found a rather unique way to find an experienced beta reader that might work for others if the very particular circumstances are ever repeated:

In reading the credits for a sci-fi novel written by a well-known writer who lives within a 100 km distance of my home, I happened to notice that one of his beta readers was someone who I happen to know, and have a good relationship with. I'm saving my request to him for my final draft... :grin

[Jamesaritchie]

My beta readers are the editors I send I submit fiction to. Have been pretty much from day one. If I let anyone else read my manuscripts they might tell me there was something wrong with the way I write.

[veingloree]

With markets I am familiar with I will send a non-beta-read work that I have gone over as carefully as possible. For an unfamilar market or if a piece is rejected I use people from genre-specific yahoogroups, or if I do not belong to an appropriate group, critiquecircle.com.

[ElonnaT]

Thank you for the information, it at least gives me a clue ;)

[maestrowork]

Don't choose someone close to you... they may be biased, unless you know for sure that they can be objective, critical and unbiased.

Choose someone who reads a lot and enjoy reading a good book and has a good eye of what a good book should be.

Editors/writers can be good or bad, depending on the person. A good mentor would really help. A bad one would tear your book to shreds and say things like "if I were you, I would rewrite it this way, and that way." HEY, I have news for you: You are NOT me.

[Gala]

This is my view.
1. I looked at critique circle, and found the critiques not to my liking. It appeared most giving feedback had little solid critique experience or training. I am experienced at critique, reviewing manuscripts, judging contests, beta reading--you name it. Just because someone is a writer, doesn't mean they know how to analzye writing, and vice-versa.
1a. IMHO, even online critiquers who have experience in the writing/publishing field, aren't often good beta/critiquers. Knowing how to give constructive feedback is a separate skill.
2. My opinion, having looked at online critiques, is that newish writers use them. Hence more of 1 and 2. I advise caution.
3. I think you answered your own questions, Elonna. Depending on the piece, the audience, and your goal, use your best judgment about who you show it to.
4. There is a school of thought that critique is actually collaboration. Do you want that? No worries.
5. Another school, (and there's a great quote by Hemingway about this but I can't recall it) is that by telling my story to others, by allowing them to read it before it's done, takes away the energy to tell the story further--to complete writing it. Once I share it, the work is done. Another mainstream author says the same thing; I can't recall if it's Annie Dillard or?
6. You'll learn from trial and error what works for you. I shared a piece, written as an example of horrible metaphor, run-on sentences, and extreme adjective to the workshop I facilitate. As I read, intending to tell them at the end, "this is what not to do" they were laughing and laughing. They said, "we didn't know about this side of you, give us more!"
7. I know some writers use beta readers all the way through; many use spouses (and claim nobody ever, ever critiques their work until it's done/sent for publication--sure.)
8. When people hear you're writing, they ask "let me read something." Trust your gut. I may show them articles I've published, as a test. If I trust them, I may show them a novel excerpt at some stage. I've found friends mean well, but it's partly that, as they tell me, they want to say "I knew you when" and "so if I read this will I be in the dedication/acknowledgments?"
9. An effective method for beta-ing yourself is to read it aloud to yourself. Or, have someone read it to you. (Have a double espresso near-by as a reward.)
10. Good luck!

[Jamesaritchie]

"7. I know some writers use beta readers all the way through; many use spouses (and claim nobody ever, ever critiques their work until it's done/sent for publication--sure.)"

Sounds like you don't believe this, but I know many pro writers who never have let anyone critique their work for any reason. They're doing pretty well. Spouses don't usually count as critiquers, even when they read your story.

I never let anyone read my work, especially my spouse or my friends. There's nothing they, or a critique group, can tell me that an editor can't tell me better. I learned my lesson back when I wrote my first short story.

Even most of the pro writers I know who do show their work to others still don't do so for what is ordinarily thought of as a "critique." It's more for receiving an "idiot read," just to be sure you didn't make a stupid blunder in research, or didn't make something one way in chapter three and then another way in chapter twelve. It's a proofread and a fact check, not a critique.

For me it's pretty simple. I think the person who can critique a story in a meaningful way is extremely rare, and even when you find one odds are good they won't say the same thing an editor says, and it's the editor you have to please. I follow a simple rule. If you have no intention of writing me a check if you like what you read, you don't get to read the manuscript.

Critiqueing, as it's done today, is a pretty modern invention, and I can't say we're any better off for it.

[ChunkyC]

I follow Stephen King's advice from his book 'On Writing': I don't show anything to anyone until after the second draft.

Then I follow my own routine.

I read it out loud to my wife and make notes and minor corrections as I go. If I'm gonna read it out loud anyway, why not to her? Every now and then I get some useful feedback.

At the same time, I send it to four beta readers:

One is a published author who does not write or read in my genre. From her I get specific analysis of my work. She can be brutal and I love her for it.

Number two is her husband, who is not a writer but does read in my genre. He is one of the most straightforward people I know, he never hesitates to show his enthusiasm or lack of it.

Third and fourth are avid readers who have shown me they can give my stuff an honest read and tell me what they think. These two I consider 'target audience' readers. They can't tell me about the mechanics of my writing, but neither can 99.999% of the people who will buy my book if it ever gets published. From them, I only want to know if they liked it and if so, why; or if they didn't like it and if not, why.

The last thing I do is LISTEN to them and thank them profusely for taking the time to help me out.

[ElonnaT]

Thank you all again for the additional information and sharing your own experiences. The only things I have ever had published were several articles for my undergrad college's alternative newspaper (I was asst editor so doesn't really count).

I also had a poem published in a university sponsored anthology of poems and short fiction. Though I had to submit the piece and the work had to be chosen to be published, I really don't feel like it counted much since the professor of the class I wrote the poem for was the faculty advisor of the publication.

I guess I am still looking for some validation that I am not completely off my rocker thinking that someday I may write well enough to be published. Even if I never do write well enough, I will not stop writing because I love it.

I was thinking that as a new writer, having a beta reader or two would at least let you know if you could write a story that was interesting. The grammar and technical parts of writing can be learned by anyone, but being able to really tell a story well...that takes some innate talent. But even then, it seems that a good storyteller may not be able to put the story down on paper as well as they can tell it. So to me, that seems to be the three things a writer needs to have/be to be publishable. How do you know if you have those qualities if you do not let people read your work, at least in the beginning?

Now writers such as Stephen King, John Grisham, etc...I am sure after their first works, they knew they had the abilities. To compare a new writer to writers of that caliber is not really fair, at least not yet ;)

I will just have to figure out what works or does not work for me, but at least I now understand the concepts, whys and hows of beta readers.

:grin

[Yeshanu]

I guess I am still looking for some validation that I am not completely off my rocker thinking that someday I may write well enough to be published. Even if I never do write well enough, I will not stop writing because I love it.

Elonna,

Judging from what I've seen of your writing on this board, you write well enought now to be published.

If you want beta readers only for validation, then I'd say James A. might have something...

How do you know if you have those qualities if you do not let people read your work, at least in the beginning?

Let an editor (who is assessing your piece for possible publication) be your beta reader. They'll tell you...

Go get 'em, girl! :cheer

I read something today that seems to the point -- along the lines that Shakespeare had it easy, because he didn't have to compare himself to Shakespeare. IMHO, ditto for Stephen King, John Grisham, et al.

All the best,

Ruth

[veingloree]

re: critique circle, I found who were the good critiquers and invited them to my work posted on my private cc queue, That works fairly well. On a large public site the onus is on the user to locate what they want rather than take what comes. However this is fairly easy to do if you scan through the submission and critique work of a professioanl quality, when they retrun the favour you can take it form there.

A good beta-reader can be very useful. I have located a few from various sites like cc and correspond with them via email. Most are writers at the same level (semi-pro) and in the same genre as me. So they know the score and give relevant input.