Profanity in ancient Greece

[c.e.lawson]

You know what Samuel Clemens said about how, under certain trying circumstances profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer? Well...

Any thoughts or tips or resources on how to write men in ancient Sparta cursing/using profanity/swearing/cussing?

I'm about to begin a chapter of my story that is from the POV of a young soldier and I know there will be the need for it! :)

I recently read an excerpt from Stephen Pressfield's Gates of Fire which is about the Spartans' battle at Thermopylae, and his characters cursed in modern day style. I don't think I liked it - I felt it brought me out of the feel of the time. Not sure, though. And I'm not sure if I have any other options!

Any insight would be appreciated,

c.e.

[blackpen]

try seeing if there is any spartan graffiti lying around. it reflects a lot about swearing and everyday culture. trouble with this kind of thing is that it's not very searchable and generally not published.

the hbo series Rome is the wrong time period and the wrong place but its producers had access to the kind of historical knowledge that may be more difficult for you to attain. you might be able to get some inspiration by hearing the kind of swearing the Rome characters do.

good luck. if all else fails, just do what the movie 300 does. actually, i think the battle slogans from 300 may be historically accurate, unlike the rest of the movie.

[c.e.lawson]

Hi blackpen!

Thank you for those ideas. Oooh - another excuse to watch hbo's Rome and the movie 300 again. Too bad they don't have any manly men with scars... *smirk*

I just remembered I gave my brother a book on quotes/ insults a few years ago and it contained a section on the ancient world. I bet there's some good stuff in there! I'll see if he can dig it up.

In the meantime, if anyone would like to curse at me in the spirit of ancient Greece, feel free!! :)

c.e.

[PattiTheWicked]

I bet that curses revolving around someone's mother is timeless.

[Puma]

And, I would imagine that "oaths" involving any of the pantheon of gods would have existed. I know I've seen "by Zeus" somewhere. Another possible idea would be to look at some of the info about the oracles and see whether any material shows up there. Puma

[PastMidnight]

In addition to seeing if you can find graffiti, maybe also look up curse tablets. If I'm remembering correctly, these are tablets that a person would write if they wanted to put a curse or incantiation on someone and I think that the language can sometimes be pretty colorful, depending on how angry they are ('May all of Demetrius' toenails fall out, that son of a Macedonian goat' or something similar.)

I agree with Patti and Puma. I think you're always safe with cursing mothers and gods!

[Evaine]

When I was at school, we studied a translation of The Birds, (Greek play by famous Greek author whose name I totally forget. He also wrote The Frogs - Aristophenes?).
One of the running jokes in the play was Poseidon, wandering around incognito, and saying "By Poseidon!" all the time.
This was also the play that invented the term Cloud Cuckoo Land.

[PattiTheWicked]

Pastmidnight reminded me of something regarding the more unpleasant type of curses, as oppsed to the "yo mamma" type. There's a guy named Christopher Faraone who has written several really amazing books and papers about magic and spellworking among the ancient Greeks -- including helpful things like how to make a kessaloi, which is the Greek equivalent of a voodoo doll.

The Greeks took their magic very seriously, and it was part of daily life. I know I've seen in Faraone's work some references to the text found in some of those incantations. That might be a good starting point for you, if you're looking for a bit of malevolent cursing as opposed to just having characters insult one another.

[JenNipps]

Google (or your search engine of choice) is your friend.

I'm not any help as far as cursing in ancient Greece, but I had a similar question about early medieval Ireland.

[Gehanna]

Any thoughts or tips or resources on how to write men in ancient Sparta cursing/using profanity/swearing/cussing?

Perhaps obscene gesturing may be an option to consider if you have no luck with your search.

Sincerely,
Gehanna

[Medievalist]

Google (or your search engine of choice) is your friend.

I'm not any help as far as cursing in ancient Greece, but I had a similar question about early medieval Ireland.

There are some curses preserved in Old Irish--a friend wrote an Old Irish curse generator (http://w3.lincolnu.edu/~focal/scripts/mallacht.htm), in fact, using ms. materials--but depending on the context, if you mean curse as in malediction, you might also want to look into the geas, or geasa, the plural.

[c.e.lawson]

PattiTheWicked - Great idea about the mother stuff. I imagine that would doubly sting in ancient Sparta, given how bearing soldiers for Sparta was held in such high regard. And your Faraone resource sounds intriguing. Thank you!

Puma - I will look up info on the oracles. Thank you for the suggestion!

PastMidnight - 'May all of Demetrius' toenails fall out, that son of a Macedonian goat' Excellent! LOL! Thank you! I'm going to do some research on curse tablets.

Evaine and Puma - I think saying "By *insert god of choice*" is a wonderful idea! Thank you.

Jen Nipps - I wasn't getting very far with Google, except for a couple of obscure texts from a college course and an e-mail from a college professor that I might try. But I'll try different wording in my searches.

Gehanna - Gesturing - another word to add to my Google search terms. Thank you!

I appreciate the help, everyone! I'm sure no one here has been sired by a Macedonian goat! :)

c.e.

[Medievalist]

Look here for Classical Greek curses (http://www.google.com/search?q=classical+greek+curses&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a), as in maledicta.

[robeiae]

If I recall correctly, the Spartans said "By Grabthar's hammer, you shall be avenged!" an awful lot.

As to general, everyday speak, I suspect their expletives were very much like our expletives, so I would use a modern style, since I assume you are writing this in English, not Ancient Greek.

[c.e.lawson]

Thank you, robeiae! Although given what you have under your username - "90%wrong and 10%funny" - I'm a little worried. Is that Grabthar quote wrong or funny?

*runs off to verify*

If I recall correctly, the Spartans said "By Grabthar's hammer, you shall be avenged!" an awful lot.

As to general, everyday speak, I suspect their expletives were very much like our expletives, so I would use a modern style, since I assume you are writing this in English, not Ancient Greek.

And thank you, Medievalist, for the links! This will make for some fun searching.

c.e.

[dolores haze]

If you don't find any Ancient, how about some Modern?

Malaka - wanker
Mamasou - yo momma
Aigamisou - fuck off

I take no responsibility for these spellings, but will vouch for their effectiveness.

[PattiTheWicked]

Oddly enough, "wanker" sounds insulting in ANY language.

[Evaine]

"By Grabthar's hammer..." sounds like a quote from Galaxy Quest! It certainly doesn't sound like a Greek name.

My mum and her partner live in Greece now. She's learned a fair bit of the language - enough to go shopping with, anyway. His sole Greek word is "malaka".

[c.e.lawson]

Dolores Haze - thanks for the lesson in modern Greek profanity, LOL! I love how 'yo momma' actually has 'mama' in it.

Evaine - knowing nothing about Galaxy Quest, I didn't recognize that. But I had enough suspicion about Robeiae to wonder about that one. Thanks to you and PattytheWicked for the heads up. Patti let me know yesterday.
See? Robeiae was both funny AND wrong! I knew it!

[robeiae]

Well, that's why the second sentence should have started with "seriously"...

My bad.

[robeiae]

By the by, I have an excellent book: The Routledge Dictionary of Latin Quotations.

It's full of mottoes and sayings, many of which go back to the Republic. While it's obviously not Greek, it might give you a good feel for the kind of subject matter and tone of speech that a stoic group like the Spartans might engage in.

I hope this makes up for my earlier transgression.

[c.e.lawson]

Hi robeiae!

No trangression at all - just funny! And thanks for the rec. Excellent idea.

c.e.

[Dusk]

(Coming into this thread probably too late to help c. e. lawson, but just in case anyone else is dying for such juicy info . . .)

I don't recall offhand what books are available on Greek profanity, but for Latin profanity there is the wonderful Latin Sexual Vocabulary (http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Sexual-Vocabulary-J-Adams/dp/0801829682), by J. N. Adams.

Oh, wait, not only is Google our friend, but so is Amazon. This turns up on the above Amazon page: The Maculate Muse: Obscene Language in Attic Comedy (http://www.amazon.com/Maculate-Muse-Obscene-Language-Comedy/dp/0195066855). It's about Athens, not Sparta, but it would probably have references to any pertinent studies of Sparta.

[donroc]

Try the Iliad, then use your creativity to take the metaphors and replace with your own sexual/scatalogical invectives.

www.donaldmichaelplatt.com

[c.e.lawson]

Thanks, Dusk and donroc. Great ideas, both of you. There's still plenty of my story left to be written, so no, it's definitely not too late for more sources of profanity, LOL.

I appreciate your input and will definitely give these a try.

c.e.

Edited to add: Wow, Dusk - I clicked on the "look inside" link to that book and within 3 seconds I had the ancient Greek words for c_ _ _, c_ _ _ , and _ _ _- hole.

[Doogs]

It's amazing where you can pick up bits of information.

For instance, recently on NPR, I learned that the Roman equivalent of "when hell freezes over" was "when mules foal". It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that the Greeks had a similar turn of phrase.

[dolores haze]

Whe English speakers don't understand something they say "it's all Greek to me".
When Greek (modern) speakers don't understand something they say "it's all Chinese to me".

[Cascata Ariana]

"By Grabthar's hammer..." sounds like a quote from Galaxy Quest! It certainly doesn't sound like a Greek name.

My mum and her partner live in Greece now. She's learned a fair bit of the language - enough to go shopping with, anyway. His sole Greek word is "malaka".


It is from Galaxy Quest! It's kind of sad that I recognize it immediately.

[wee]

I bet that curses revolving around someone's mother is timeless.



Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries!



I have to go write now (pun intended)


wee