Genre change

I think there's room for a lot more moral ambiguity in fantasy than you think. Although much of it is black-and-white, I've read plenty of books where the lines aren't nearly so clear. (Swordspoint is coming to mind as a prime example.)

You could still have that moral ambiguity in your fantasy, despite the fantastical elements. It's all in how you present the story. You could very well do away what's troubling you in your current setting.

Personally, I'd pick up a book like the one you originally describe. I wouldn't read it as a fantasy (caveat: I rarely read fantasy).

Easy doesn't always = best. Those moral problems you are sidestepping could add amazing depth and conflict to a modern day story, in fact, it seems like you are avoiding the exact things that give novels the story complexity that makes them stand out. In other words, you are running away from something many authors seek in their stories. Just your brief description makes the premise of the contemporary version immediately appealing. Make sure you are not making the shift just because it's easier. Which one will let you tell the richest, most intriguing story that will keep readers turning pages?

ClaudiaGray said:

I think there's room for a lot more moral ambiguity in fantasy than you think. Although much of it is black-and-white, I've read plenty of books where the lines aren't nearly so clear. (Swordspoint is coming to mind as a prime example.)

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Definitely. Most, if not all, of the fantasy that I read is morally vague. I hate reading black-and-white stuff. And there's plenty of fantasy out there that's ambiguous in this regard. A Game of Thrones and the Song of Ice and Fire, while not my personal favorite stuff, is a great example of that. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which sounds a little like what you're doing here with the alt history, is in the same sort of area. Hell, Terry Pratchett and JK Rowling, arguably the most best-selling fantasy authors of the day, both center on moral ambiguity in their novels (less so for Rowling, but she's got her Snapes and Blacks and such).

A magical sword is just a tool. A powerful weapon. Sort of like nukes. We already have those and we have plenty of moral ambiguity about them. If you want to make the tool something made to kill bad guys, have the MC's doubt the sword's validity. Why these men? Who made this sword? Why did he want these men dead? Did he want them dead after all?

A doomsday weapon brings up a lot of questions.

I hate black-and-white morality. It's not realistic. Sometimes it works for fantasy (and it's done all the time) but it's kind of an easy way out, I think. Having shades of greys adds depth to the story and tells a lot more about the character. It's not longer "save the prisoners because it's right!" and it becomes "What was the reason for capture in the first place? Will my interfering create bigger problems than it solves?" I think the second is a lot better and I enjoy it more in a story. So if you're able the add that kind of depth to the story I'm all for it.

That being said, black-and-white morality in fantasy does well all the time, so if you decide to go with it, by all means, do so.

Genre doesn't get rid of morality. It's always there. It just gets rid of the constructs that we are used to seeing morality judged by. So now it's up to you to set up new constructs for your readers, and make them understand the stakes.

Then have the characters break the rules, and have to pay the consequences. There are always consequences, or the story won't be very interesting. So maybe you have really bad guys, but perhaps they aren't so really bad from their own POVs...

Nicole

Books are made to ask questions, not necessarily answer them. If you set up a question around a specific answer (Good Vs. Evil) then it's sort of like walking in circles. You're intentionally climbing into a box.

I think the idea that an entire genre can't function outside of a set of morals is one of the problems of genre stuff today. Nothing worth hearing about can be compartmentalized.

Like, Upmarket fiction. What is that? I'm serious.

Keep what you've got, IMO. If you think it'll do better as a fantasy then change it, but don't do the change just to avoid the difficulty of writing "moral ambiguity."

Jo--I'd keep it how it is, for the exact reasons you mentioned. You don't want the flashbulbs of fantasy to distract the reader from the awesome character development and conflict that's the basis of your story. And, as someone who really likes everything she's seen, I know I would be turned off if this was a fantasy. I automatically expect shallow characters in fantasy.

Not all fantasy is black and white. I write fantasy and two of my three protagonists are constantly riding the edge, whereas the antagonist, while decidedly not riding the edge, has such a deep backstory that it nearly justifies what he's doing.

If you think it'll work better as fantasy, go for it. In my opinion, the only way to lose your moral ambiguity is to rewrite it so that it's not there

Shady Lane said:

I automatically expect shallow characters in fantasy.

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I'm close to offended by that remark. ::sniff::

Just because I expect it doesn't mean I should. Or that I'm right. Don't be offended. I'm fantasy-ist.

JoNightshade said:

So my WIP, almost finished with the first draft, is set in contemporary America. It's about a group of semi-retired government assassins.

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When I read this I went, "whoa, what a great idea, I'd definitely read that."

When I read on I went, "Oh, Jo, No! Don't do it. Real assassins are much more interesting than fantasy assassins."

JoNightshade said:

As my husband put it, once you have a king and a magic sword, you automatically get to kill bad guys. There's almost no question about this

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I don't agree with your husband. Anything can be morally ambiguous. It's how to tell it and what the characters do that is important. Nothing is a "given."

Shady Lane said:

Just because I expect it doesn't mean I should. Or that I'm right. Don't be offended. I'm fantasy-ist.

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Anti-fantite!

Nicole

NicoleMD said:

Anti-fantite!

Nicole

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*Filled with love*

Having a basic story that's not genre dependant appeals to me. If you can shift what you've written from one genre to the next without losing any of the basic plot, I think you've got a very powerful 'core' story.

I don't think you can classify any genre as being more or less 'black and white'. Personally, I try to avoid the whole idea of good and evil. I prefer to have two sets of characters who want similar things but for different reasons, and so are bound to clash. This seems more realistic to me.

Have a closer look at the assassin. If you can give them noble or at least understandable motives, killing such assassins suddenly becomes a morally ambiguous thing. Personally, I don't like fantasy, but I think that story could work. Don't just assume assassins are bad guys. Show me a non-stereotypical assassin and you've solved your problem.

Personally, I see your story going either way, maybe even some kind of combination of both if told right. This is your baby, nurture it and let your characters decide how the story should be told. Step into their shoes. Would the main character rather be a king with a magical sword? Let him have his way. If he would rather be in the US in present time with other weapons, give it to him. You are the tool like a pen is the tool for writing itself. Listen to your characters and let them guide you.

We can only give you suggestions and help you with your problem but ultimitly, its your decision. I like fantasies stories and your story does sound interesting in itself.

I don't think you want the easier way out either. I know this because you came here to ask for some advice. That alone says you care about your story and the characters in it. You want your story to be as great as you can make it. I have that delema too sometimes. I created a place for my characters in my mind where they can "live". When I sit down to write, I open that part of my mind and I let my characters out to "play". It is their voices I hear and I listen to them the best I can and write what I hear, sometimes missing pieces because it flows so quickly. I have trouble find the right genre and have missed it a little with 2 of my books which have been published. Thanks to the publishers, I was able to work it out especially with the second one, Stolen Identity. I was trying to send it to romance houses, getting rejected every time. Then a house accepted it as eroitca thriller. I would have never thought of the thriller part but now I can see it in there. How dumb could I get huh?

But anyway, go with your heart. You have a great start so far, finishing it is always the hardest part. Good luck and I hope we have all helped you in a way that you can decide what to do without getting an anorism.

Amber

maestrowork said:

I don't agree with your husband. Anything can be morally ambiguous. It's how to tell it and what the characters do that is important. Nothing is a "given."

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100% - and keep it contemporary - it sounds more interesting.

JoNightshade said:

I think the same thing happens with science fiction. Readers are set up to expect the unexpected, to anticipate moral black-and-whites, so in some sense it's almost more difficult in these genres to have all the greys.

Thoughts?

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I completely disagree. One thing I've noticed on these boards is that people tend to limit themselves into genres and what genres can do. It's understandable, given that it's alot easier to get published that way. But it's also a damn shame.

I don't read much sci-fi or fantasy, I generally stick to experimental writing and classics. But if Fantasy and Sci-Fi books really are as limited in exploring morals and grey areas as you think they are then they must be years behind Sci-fi on television.

Lost, Firefly, Deep Space Nine, the New Battlestar. They've all made names for themselves by exploring shady characters and grey situations and have done a fantastic job of it for the most part. In fact alot of times on those shows it's tough to name a good guy or a bad guy.

Like I said, it's a real shame that so many people seem to limit themselves within their writing because of the ideas they have of what can be accomplished within a genre...I wonder how many great writers have lost their love of the art because they had to limit themselves to the whims of marketing in order to get published.