How many is too many: points of view

EriRae · Jul 19, 2007

So I have this problem. It's called multiple personality disorder. It only affects my writing (whew).

I'm rewriting a book that could be the first in a series. Of my myriad of problems right now, one of the larger, whole-novel issues is that I have too many points of view. One kid's dad, another kid's one-night-stand, that same kid's love interest, and five other equal characters (until they start offing each other). That brings us to 8 characters giving their points of view over 112k and 28 chapters.

Before you consider the best institution for me, help me out. How many is too many?

Garpy · Jul 19, 2007

There's no ceiling figure of course. JRR Tolkein had loads in his book and no one moaned about that.

I suppose the more salient issue is how long you stay in each head. If you're pretty much staying with on pov per chapter, then I really don't see that as much of a problem.

Bear in mind with movies...we're used to ensemble pieces (Crash, Grand Canyon, Pulp Fiction) I think it's the same deal with books.

Azraelsbane · Jul 19, 2007

Just make sure that you spread out the POV love. The thing I really hate is getting attached to a character and then not seeing them again for 300+ pages ::cough:: Terry Goodkind ::cough::

JEMcGee · Jul 19, 2007

I have 5 POV's with each chapter being from one person's POV. I then try my best to weave the story so that the chapters are about the same size and the POV's alternate. Once in a while a character will have to repeat before another POV gets a chance, but only if it's critical to the story and the other character isn't doing anything worthy of a chapter with length.

Most of my chapters have another MC in it besides the POV character, so even if you love a character and it's not their POV you still get to see them - just from another POV.

*has just used POV too many times*

LeeFlower · Jul 19, 2007

Unless I'm remembering horribly wrong, Tolkien only had one POV. That POV just happened to be third person omniscient. That's very, very different from having a bunch of limited-third psov.

This thread from yesterday is pretty germane to your question, though. You might find it helpful to read through it. In fact, if there's a way to just combine the threads, it might be a good idea.

Azraelsbane · Jul 19, 2007

I'm pretty sure Tolkien wrote 3rd person omniscient as well. I think a lot of people get omniscient and limited mixed up. They think that if the reader knows what the character is thinking, then it is automatically limited, which is not the case at all. It's all in the way the thoughts are presented.

III · Jul 19, 2007

It almost sounds like a Canterbury Tales type of scenario. Or possibly the episode of Happy Days where each of the characters told the events from their own POV (I think Chaucer wrote the episode as well.)

As long as each character has a distinct and engaging voice and contributes to the story, I'd love to read a book like the one you've written!

JoniBGoode · Jul 19, 2007

Erinmiller77 said:
... one of the larger, whole-novel issues is that I have too many points of view. One kid's dad, another kid's one-night-stand, that same kid's love interest, and five other equal characters (until they start offing each other). That brings us to 8 characters giving their points of view over 112k and 28 chapters.

Before you consider the best institution for me, help me out. How many is too many?

117 points of view is too many. There! (Dusting off her hands.)

I, too, hate it when a POV character I was interested in disappears into the ether. I hate it even more when an author tries to create artificial suspense in a drab story by alternating between two points of view.

I think you might be asking the wrong question. You already know that for this particular novel, 8 is too many.

Maybe the right question is, "How can I reduce the number of POVs without losing anything important?"

Could the info from the kid's dad come from the one-night-stand, instead? Or could they both be rolled into the kid's love interest, or another character? Just wondering.

reenkam · Jul 19, 2007

I have 14 POV characters in my current WIP. So, to me, your 8 is fine. (But I think I, too, suffer from multiple personality disorder when it comes to writing...)

In any case, I think it's fine as long as they get equal timing, like everyone's said. If you're just using a certain character to get a tidbit of info into the story once or twice, it might be a better idea to mesh it into another character's block. But, if they're all important and all get relatively equal word-count, then I don't see why it'd be a huge problem. Unless they all sound the same and it's hard to distinguish...but I'm sure they wouldn't, since they don't sound like people that could sound the same, anyway.

JohnDavidPaxton · Jul 19, 2007

One.

Anything more than a blank page and I get confused.

Err...it really, really depends on the length of the story and what's to GAIN from shifting that perspective. You really have to measure it out. Is your story really about the kid or the dad? Are the other perspectives brought up because it's easy or because, through their perspective, you can tell a better story?

Eight perspectives in 30 chapters sounds like an awful lot to me. If you're sure you can tie it all together then do it. But if you're just looking for an easy out when it comes to conveying information to the protagonist, drop it.

Patricia · Jul 19, 2007

How important to the plot is each POV? Does it really advance the plot in an interesting way to the reader? Does the reader really need all the info that you will be presenting with each POV?

Shady Lane · Jul 19, 2007

Just remember that everyone is going to like one character best. They will be waiting through all the other POVs, waiting for that guy to show up again.

Simon Woodhouse · Jul 19, 2007

I try to have as few POV characters as possible. Three has been my maximum so far. Having fewer points of view seems to make my writing tighter. I have to concentrate on giving the reader everything that's necessary for the story to make sense, whilst at the same time keeping the plot moving along. I like the challenge of working this way.

DeadlyAccurate · Jul 19, 2007

GRR Martin seems to do fine with many, many POVs. No clue how many. A dozen or so in each book?

job · Jul 19, 2007

I guess it depends on your story.

If your story is about what happens -- if it is about plot -- then a lot of POVs can work really well. You get a lot of different takes on what is happening. With 10 POVs, you have 100,000 words about the plot unfolding.

BTW ... there is nothing wrong with a plot-driven story.

If you are primarily writing about character ... then limiting the number of POVs may make sense.

If your story is about the growth, change, conflict inside the character then inside the character is where the story would take place.

With 10 POVs in a character-driven story, you are telling the story of 10 people within the framework of a single plot ... and your stories are each 10,000 words long.

There is nothing wrong with this. (Hey, it's been done. Brilliantly.)

But a character-driven story with 10 fairly equal POVs is somewhat a collection of ten short stories.

So. What are you writing?
That tells you how many POVs you want.

Danger Jane · Jul 19, 2007

Take out a piece of paper. On it, write each of the POV characters' names. For each name, write down why you are including that POV and how it advances the story, specifically.

Look over your list. Are there any POVs that are included only to cough up backstory/background? Are there any POVs that you could cut and fill in the gap with the other remaining POVs?

And amp up the POVs you keep. Give them real personalities and distinguishable styles of thought. Everyone perceives the world in a unique way. A florist notices different details (flowery ones) than a yoga instructor (posture).

You might not have to cut any POVs. But think really carefully about why you have included each one of them.

ORION · Jul 19, 2007

As a reader I find that if there is more than one POV I do not care as deeply about the characters - it's like my affection is split.
But that is just me...
It depends on your intention as a writer...

EriRae · Jul 19, 2007

LeeFlower said:
Unless I'm remembering horribly wrong, Tolkien only had one POV. That POV just happened to be third person omniscient. That's very, very different from having a bunch of limited-third psov.

This thread from yesterday is pretty germane to your question, though. You might find it helpful to read through it. In fact, if there's a way to just combine the threads, it might be a good idea.

Thanks for the thread. I tried to search the forums and didn't get any hits! Guess I don't know what I'm doing yet...

EriRae · Jul 19, 2007

job said:
I guess it depends on your story.

If your story is about what happens -- if it is about plot -- then a lot of POVs can work really well. You get a lot of different takes on what is happening. With 10 POVs, you have 100,000 words about the plot unfolding.

As it began, it was about the plot, but once I got to the MC's backstory, it became about him. I want it to be about him, his character, so I need to trim the story down to being about him. But he has secrets from the reader, secrets he hints at but doesn't tell until midway through. My way of avoiding the secrets was writing from someone else's point of view, about how they see him. Obviously a cop-out, to avoid the hard issue of dealing with him.

job · Jul 19, 2007

Erinmiller77 said:
As it began, it was about the plot, but once I got to the MC's backstory, it became about him. I want it to be about him, his character, so I need to trim the story down to being about him. But he has secrets from the reader, secrets he hints at but doesn't tell until midway through. My way of avoiding the secrets was writing from someone else's point of view, about how they see him. Obviously a cop-out, to avoid the hard issue of dealing with him.

You're saying to yourself -- right here -- what I would say to you.

Cop-out may be the mot juste.

It's good in that you understand how hard this 'hiding secrets' stuff will be to write.
Multiple POVs is probably not the best technique for dealing with your problem.
All else being equal, the MCs interior journey is probably best in his POV.

So ....
Ask yourself, first, how important it is to hide the secrets from the reader. Can you just not do it?

OK.
Now go back and ask yourself that question again, because this 'unreliable narrator' stuff is real hard to do and it may just not be worth it.

If you're determined to do 'Unreliable Narrator',
what you might do next is search AW for old threads.
I'm sure this has been discussed many times.

Then you might repost your question, asking how to handle your particular flavor of 'unreliable narrator' issues.

Now
<cough>
in the book that's coming out in January I did a HUGE 'unreliable narrator' schtick that lasted the whole first quarter of the book,
but I doubt what I did would be useful to you,
because there's lots of possible U.N. stuff and every case is different.

Kalthandrix · Jul 19, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
Just make sure that you spread out the POV love. The thing I really hate is getting attached to a character and then not seeing them again for 300+ pages ::cough:: Terry Goodkind ::cough::

Or a whole fricken book :grr:

AJ Clare · Jul 19, 2007

I've never worked with more than three per novel and I stick with the chosen character for a whole chapter or segment. But I'm anal like that.

triceretops · Jul 20, 2007

I haven't exceeded two yet, just to keep it simple. Good guy and bad guy. I might try three in a future story, but only if the third is a very strong lead and important to the arc.

Tri

EriRae · Jul 20, 2007

job said:
You're saying to yourself -- right here -- what I would say to you.

Cop-out may be the mot juste.

It's good in that you understand how hard this 'hiding secrets' stuff will be to write.
Multiple POVs is probably not the best technique for dealing with your problem.
All else being equal, the MCs interior journey is probably best in his POV.

So ....
Ask yourself, first, how important it is to hide the secrets from the reader. Can you just not do it?

The MC has a mental block about his past. He pushes it down and almost blacks out every time he thinks of a friend that his father murdered while he watched. The only time he can actually relive the past event is in his nightmares. Granted, this brings in a dream sequence and then a flashback, two things I've heard are "no-no's" for a first novel, but it works for me, so I'm sticking to it.

job said:
OK.
Now go back and ask yourself that question again, because this 'unreliable narrator' stuff is real hard to do and it may just not be worth it.

If you're determined to do 'Unreliable Narrator',
what you might do next is search AW for old threads.
I'm sure this has been discussed many times.

Then you might repost your question, asking how to handle your particular flavor of 'unreliable narrator' issues.

I think this will work, and it's only for seven chapters...probably less after the rewrite. Cutting back on the PoV's will tighten the story. I'm so excited as I do this rewrite because I've been trying to develop all these characters, but the truth is, half of them end up dead at the end, anyway, so it won't even enhance a possible sequel! I was just avoiding my MC because he's f**ked up (no accident, that's how I intended, but he also has a serious ego that I'm going to have to show as facade, or he's an unbearable ass). Somehow I still love him, but I have to make the reader love him, too...there's the rub.

ct bliss · Jul 22, 2007

I think the answer is simple: Too many is when your reader doesn't know who's POV he's reading, or can't easily associate a character's name with his side of the story.

Howerver, there's more to it, and I think everyone else has covered it pretty well.

How many is too many: points of view

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