Vacation Bible school--tricking my kids?

Shwebb · Jul 18, 2007

I've been sending my kids to the local vacation Bible schools this summer.

For the most part, it's been a positive experience--both for them, and for me! I get a few hours of them being out of the house (except for the littlest, of course) and the kids have been having a great time. Last week was the Methodist church, and this week it's been the Baptist church. (I joined the local Nazarene church recently, but they don't have vacation Bible school, for some reason.)

Anyway--tonight when I went to pick up the kids, they were running late. They had a group come in and demonstrate martial arts stuff--breaking boards and cement blocks and such. I got there in time to witness this group being really heavy-handed and--I'm going to say it--tricking the kids into saying the sinner's prayer. My kids are ages five and four. It was a "repeat after me" thing, after he told them, "Okay, if you want to have Jesus live in your heart, raise your hands. C'mon, let's see those hands go in the air." Of course, my kids are going to do that. They're going to do whatever they're told by someone standing up there.

But I really felt that it was an underhanded, dishonest thing to do with little kids. I don't blame the church folks; these were guest speakers. But it was all I could do not to run up there and pull my kids out right in front of everyone, right then.

I should note that it wasn't just kids there--it was the whole congregation. And I have nothing against altar calls. But I do have a problem with trying to get my kids to do something they are obviously not ready for and do not understand.

I guess I needed to get that off my chest! But I'm wondering what some of y'all might think about this issue.

And with kids, what age do most kids start "getting it?" I was around eight when the story of Jesus really started sinking in.

Mac H. · Jul 18, 2007

We teach kids to say 'sorry' before they really understand the subtleties of the phrase.

We teach kids not to get into cars in strangers, before they understand what it is really about.

The guest teachers may see it is as something that it is good to get into the habit of doing .. before they really understand what it means.

It isn't really 'tricking them' into anything ... because it isn't as if the prayer is a magic spell that will have any real effect ... as you said, understanding comes later.

Wish you well,

Mac

A. Hamilton · Jul 18, 2007

I was also about 8. And it came from my heart..I whispered my prayer, unlike the other kids madly waving their hands in the air. It was personal, and looking back, I know I was old enough for the decision I made then. Through the years, I made recommitments that were appropriate to my age and understanding.
A 4 or 5 year old would have a very limited fairy-tale-like view of the Christ story, and I'd be concerned as well to see a group hand fest like that. The teacher probably meant well, but it's kinda creepy to me, knowing how impressive a young child can be. This is probably a good time to have a very simple chat with them about your own beliefs. It also gives you a good peek into how that particular church operates, in case you were considering further attendance.

CACTUSWENDY · Jul 19, 2007

I was only five years old but knew and understood the choice I was making as far as asking Jesus to forgive me and come into my heart. No one asked me about it, no one tried to talk me into it. I said it in my heart and with no 'repeat after me'. It was very moving and something I will never forget.

When it's time...it happens. Age is not really a factor and God is God. I have never been too impressed with those that try to 'guilt' or shove their beliefs down someones' throat.

As a parent I would not be too upset by what you saw as time will filter stuff out of their thinking. I would not want to be a part of this kind of shoving....and am surprized so many adults sat by and allowed this to happen, but am sure their hearts were in the right place. (just not the methods)

Talking with your young ones will open doors for you to share your dreams and ideas with them about all your desires reguarding your faith. Enjoy the chats, one day they may not be as open. (wink)

poetinahat · Jul 19, 2007

That does sound pretty low. And kids sure don't need another excuse not to trust adults!

But I don't reckon Jesus would hold anyone to a contract signed under duress or through trickery. It's got to be done from the heart.

Do you have any notion of how seriously your kids took it? Your own response says a lot about you; I hope you haven't lost sleep over it, though. My four-year-old daughter often surprises me with her clear thinking.

And P.H. raises a very good point: whether or not the church knew that was part of the act might reveal a lot about the church itself.

I wish you and the family well in sorting out this issue. It's great that you care so much for them.

Shwebb · Jul 19, 2007

Thanks, guys. Of course I want my kids to be exposed to the salvation message as they're ready for it. But I want them to be called to God out of love, not out of fear.

I did talk to them on the way home about it. And they didn't understand what they'd done, thankfully. They were just a wee bit anxious, but I found out that it was because the guy who was doing the talking was being very "loudy," to quote my daughter. My kids don't like loud noises unless they're the ones making them! I explained that sometimes when people get excited, especially when they have good things to share, they can get a little loud, just like kids do. I expect some questions from Ethan in the next few days, and I'm ready, in case.

So far, I'm liking the Nazarene church we're going to. Given that I was raised relatively unconventionally (home churches, some really fundamental, fringe stuff at times, and some stints on some communes) it's interesting to go to a more mainstream church. My kids are loving it, and I feel like going there is already opening up the natural dialogue about God with them.

My husband says he was "tricked" into saying a salvation prayer this way when he was seven or so, and I can tell you it did have the unintended opposite effect. He did what they told him to, and then after, they told him that since he said the prayer, he had to do whatever God (and they) told him to do. Instead of getting the message of what God did for us out of love, he got the message that God was trying to trap him.

Wendy, you're right--I do cherish this openness with my kids! The questions they ask are beautiful, and I'm always surprised by my answers. Example: One night Ethan asked me why God is invisible. I said, "Well, since God is everywhere, if we could see Him, we wouldn't be able to see anything else, if we could. So that's good, right?"

When a child chooses on his own to come to God, it's a beautiful thing. I don't want forced blooms, I want them to blossom in His timing.

scarletpeaches · Jul 19, 2007

Why send your kids to a Bible school before knowing that particular church inside out? It's your duty as a parent to make sure your children spend time in an environment with which you agree. Sure, they were guests speakers but surely there was a way to find out what was going on and who was present before you left your kids there?

Calla Lily · Jul 19, 2007

My teenager (15-3/4) went to the teen youth group for the church across the street for awhile, but they got a little heavy-handed and wanted to quit, and I told him it was his choice. He's in the "explore everything" stage, and has announced (in no particular order, over the past year) that he's going to be Buddhist, Wicca, atheist, and agnostic. When I told him he was old enough to find his own path to God, but if he was going to be buddhist or Wicca, he was obligated to learn and study about his chosen religion, he looked appalled and dropped the idea. LOL!

We don't attend church (part of my cradle Catholic/nunnery baggage), but I run a writer's group in said church, and the pastor is, IMNSHO, one of the few pastors who "get it" about what church should be. My older son watches him (and me), and listens to a couple of the Christian rock bands I listen to, but I'm trying to show and not talk.

My younger son (11-3/4) has never set foot in a church, yet he goes to Denver & the Mile High Orchestra concerts with me, and I have a sneaking suspicion he's accepted Jesus. Little hints he's dropped.

They ask me anything, and they can read anything they need to--it's all on our shelves. I was so forced into things at their age, that I refuse to do that to them. That includes VBS.

Shwebb · Jul 19, 2007

Yeah, I'm not going to force my kids. Vacation Bible school is supposed to be a fun thing; when I was a kid, it was fun for me, too. We did crafts and listened to stories and such.

As far as checking them out in advance, I did what I thought was reasonable. I know a few of the members there, and my best friend's son attends there when he's in from college. This a very small town we lived in for years (my husband pretty much grew up here) and I can tell you that I'd have heard something about that church.

Calla, good for you for not pushing your son--what strength it takes not to push, sometimes!

I've only recently begun attending church given my own extensive, designer baggage. So far, the Nazarene church is fitting for the kids and me.

Lyra Jean · Jul 19, 2007

When I was around 8 I was attending vacation Bible School with a friend. We both "got saved" because we noticed that the "saved" kids got candy and the "unsaved" ones didn't. Well, we wanted candy. So we got "saved." We totally knew that were faking it so we get hooked up with lots of candy.

When I was around 13 I got saved for real. My friend got saved a few years before me. Although we aren't preaching on the street fanatics and stumble a lot nothing can turn us away from our beliefs.

So that's my story.

III · Jul 19, 2007

I'd urge you to consider discussing how you felt with the VBS director at the church, too. I guarantee the last thing they want is for kids and families to feel like they violated their trust or put them in an unwanted situation, so they'd probably appreciate you bringing your concerns to their attention.

As far as the age thing, we were having a similar discussion in another forum, but I really think God looks at your life as a whole - were you truly and fully His? We just respond in faith to the little amount we know, whether we're 5 or 25 or 75. The fact that you're talking to your kids about their experience and taking an active role in their spiritual development - that's what'll make the impact on them, much more than the loud-block-breaking-karate-guy-altar-call guy.

A godly mother is the greatest blessing a kid can have imho.

Calla Lily · Jul 19, 2007

Shwebb said:
I've only recently begun attending church given my own extensive, designer baggage.

That's great! Can I steal it? Please?

Shwebb · Jul 19, 2007

rosemerry said:
When I was around 8 I was attending vacation Bible School with a friend. We both "got saved" because we noticed that the "saved" kids got candy and the "unsaved" ones didn't. Well, we wanted candy. So we got "saved." We totally knew that were faking it so we get hooked up with lots of candy.

When I was around 13 I got saved for real. My friend got saved a few years before me. Although we aren't preaching on the street fanatics and stumble a lot nothing can turn us away from our beliefs.

So that's my story.

As long as you stay well away from following the donkeys chasing that rainbow, Charlie. Shunnnnnn-na!

III said:
I'd urge you to consider discussing how you felt with the VBS director at the church, too. I guarantee the last thing they want is for kids and families to feel like they violated their trust or put them in an unwanted situation, so they'd probably appreciate you bringing your concerns to their attention.

As far as the age thing, we were having a similar discussion in another forum, but I really think God looks at your life as a whole - were you truly and fully His? We just respond in faith to the little amount we know, whether we're 5 or 25 or 75. The fact that you're talking to your kids about their experience and taking an active role in their spiritual development - that's what'll make the impact on them, much more than the loud-block-breaking-karate-guy-altar-call guy. A godly mother is the greatest blessing a kid can have imho.

Good points, all, Jay. I think that's a great idea. And you're right about responding in what we know, which is why I got baptized more than once. Three times, actually. Some of it was a doctrinal issue (about what gets said over one whilst they get dunked) but when I was sixteen, it was about knowing what I was doing. Or felt that way at the time! Now. Let's go see if I can hunt up a godly mother for my kids.

callalily61 said:
That's great! Can I steal it? Please?

Glad you like it. It ain't stealing if I give it to you!

Pat~ · Jul 19, 2007

Hi Shwebb, I sent my kids to VBS, too, and fortunately never met up with that kind of heavy-handed experience. I can understand your reaction; I'd have felt that way, too. I think that something like that can be actually very detrimental to a person--they may grow up thinking they'd made a decision, when in actuality all they made was a pass at some candy (as another poster mentioned).

I'm very much against pressuring people into decisions. I was once on a missionary trip and was talking with a family in a mountain village about Christ via a translator. They were interested in conversing, but not interested in making a decision. The translator wanted to press for a decision towards the end of the conversation, and I had to tell him I wasn't comfortable with that. Conversion has to originate within the heart, or what's the point?

Calla Lily · Jul 19, 2007

Forget water baptism. My Baptism in the Spirit experience made me want to slit my wrists. No, I'm not exaggerating. Serious designer baggage. Well-intentioned but misguided person trying to help desperate, confused person. Yeah, that kind of traffic accident.

Roger J Carlson · Jul 19, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Why send your kids to a Bible school before knowing that particular church inside out? It's your duty as a parent to make sure your children spend time in an environment with which you agree. Sure, they were guests speakers but surely there was a way to find out what was going on and who was present before you left your kids there?

Most Vacation Bible Schools are fairly generic. Different denominations will even use the same curriculum which they buy from Christian publishers. The Directors of Children's Ministries from most of the churches in our area get together to make sure they aren't all using the same one. But it's not uncommon to see a Methodist church use the same curriculum that the Baptist church used the year before.

Mostly, they stick with the basics: sing songs, have crafts, play games, tell Bible stories...that sort of thing, and yes, the plan of salvation is usually given. I will say that this mass-salvation thing is a little odd, but not so different from the alter calls that were common 30-40 years ago.

windyrdg · Jul 19, 2007

I have my own reservations about this "Salvation Prayer." I've never seen anywhere in the Bible where Jesus tell his disciples to tell everyone to accept him as their personal Lord and Savior. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the apostles were told to go forth and BAPTIZE all nations. It's my understanding that this Salvation affirmation was developed as an expediency for tent meetings.

I know I'm treading on beliefs systems, which is like dancing on quicksand. That said, I believe that aperson can be saved without actual water baptism under some circumstances.

III · Jul 19, 2007

I agree. Water baptism is just symbolic of a decision you've made in your heart. It's meant as a declaration to the world that you're dying to yourself and living for Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 (New International Version)
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Aesposito · Jul 22, 2007

Shwebb said:
I've been sending my kids to the local vacation Bible schools this summer.

For the most part, it's been a positive experience--both for them, and for me! I get a few hours of them being out of the house (except for the littlest, of course) and the kids have been having a great time. Last week was the Methodist church, and this week it's been the Baptist church. (I joined the local Nazarene church recently, but they don't have vacation Bible school, for some reason.)

I may get smacked here, but if you are sending your kids to random samplings of VBS, they are going to get exposed to random samplings of religion. A simple phone call or a little research beforehand could solve a lot of problems before they happen.

Audrey

Sheryl Nantus · Jul 22, 2007

Pat~ said:
Hi Shwebb, I sent my kids to VBS, too, and fortunately never met up with that kind of heavy-handed experience. I can understand your reaction; I'd have felt that way, too. I think that something like that can be actually very detrimental to a person--they may grow up thinking they'd made a decision, when in actuality all they made was a pass at some candy (as another poster mentioned).

I'm very much against pressuring people into decisions. I was once on a missionary trip and was talking with a family in a mountain village about Christ via a translator. They were interested in conversing, but not interested in making a decision. The translator wanted to press for a decision towards the end of the conversation, and I had to tell him I wasn't comfortable with that. Conversion has to originate within the heart, or what's the point?

I've seen that, unfortunately - it becomes more of a "notches in your belt" type of conversions where you have church members racing to get a "high score" to prove how faithful they are to the church.

Even if you had pushed and they had professed their faith and converted, odds are that as soon as you were out of sight, it'd be out of their mind.

If we've learnt nothing over the centuries, it's that you can't *force* anyone to change their faith. You can't bribe them or trick them or harass them - they must want to take that step on their own. Otherwise it just becomes an exercise in futility.

jmo, of course.

Shwebb · Jul 22, 2007

You're not going to get smacked by anyone I know. I hope not!

But I thought I did already respond to that question in an earlier post, here.

And Roger is right--when I traveled a few hours away from home, I saw the same VBS program that the Methodist church used. I don't think it was a Methodist church was using it in the other church, either.

And I certainly don't mind my kids being exposed to different ideas within Christiandom, either. I object only to people coercing my kids into doing something for which they aren't ready.

I don't know how sad this sounds--but having been raised with a charismatic background, it's one type of church I won't send my kids to alone. Even if the ones around here had a structured, purchased kit of a VBS program. I have nothing against believing that way (in fact, I still believe in some of what I learned, growing up, for myself) but I was exposed to much more that felt like people wanting to control others in God's name.

Even as a Protestant, I'd send my kids to the local Catholic church for VBS, if they had it. My brother, who is a Catholic, sends his kids to a few Protestant VBS's, I learned recently, as well. And enjoys a nice dinner out with his wife. And I wish I were as conscientious a parent as my brother and his wife are!

Regarding the baptism thing--I actually had someone tell me that I needed to be baptized yet again because someone said the wrong words over my head as I was dunked in the river, that last time. Somehow, I think God cares less about what someone said over me and more about the state of my heart.

The older I get, the more I realize the less (and yet more) there is. Does that make any sense?

Lyra Jean · Jul 22, 2007

Shwebb said:
You're not going to get smacked by anyone I know. I hope not!

But I thought I did already respond to that question in an earlier post, here.

And Roger is right--when I traveled a few hours away from home, I saw the same VBS program that the Methodist church used. I don't think it was a Methodist church was using it in the other church, either.

And I certainly don't mind my kids being exposed to different ideas within Christiandom, either. I object only to people coercing my kids into doing something for which they aren't ready.

I don't know how sad this sounds--but having been raised with a charismatic background, it's one type of church I won't send my kids to alone. Even if the ones around here had a structured, purchased kit of a VBS program. I have nothing against believing that way (in fact, I still believe in some of what I learned, growing up, for myself) but I was exposed to much more that felt like people wanting to control others in God's name.

Even as a Protestant, I'd send my kids to the local Catholic church for VBS, if they had it. My brother, who is a Catholic, sends his kids to a few Protestant VBS's, I learned recently, as well. And enjoys a nice dinner out with his wife. And I wish I were as conscientious a parent as my brother and his wife are!

Regarding the baptism thing--I actually had someone tell me that I needed to be baptized yet again because someone said the wrong words over my head as I was dunked in the river, that last time. Somehow, I think God cares less about what someone said over me and more about the state of my heart.

The older I get, the more I realize the less (and yet more) there is. Does that make any sense?

I attended a church that told me I had to get saved again just in case I did it wrong the first time. I told them, isn't that kinda like doubting God's work in my life. I never went back to that church again. It was a scary place.

Gehanna · Jul 23, 2007

Shwebb said:

The older I get, the more I realize the less (and yet more) there is. Does that make any sense?

Yes.

Sincerely,
Gehanna

Marian Perera · Jul 24, 2007

I just realized - I got the poor man's version of VBS!

What happened was that when I was fifteen, my parents became worried about the fact that I'd never been on my own for a long period of time. We lived in the Middle East, so we didn't have summer camp or anything like that, and I was a pretty sheltered little girl. So they sent me off to stay with a good friend of theirs and his family for a week.

Now the good friend was a born-again pastor, a member of the Full Gospel Businessmen, and I was a Catholic. He used the week to evangelize to me about how Catholics were going to burn in hell, illustrating this Good News with Jack Chick pamphlets. I repented and converted. My parents didn't really mind, because they felt that anyone who's very devout in his or her faith is a good person and worthy of respect. I know by experience, however, that this is not the case.

Shwebb · Jul 24, 2007

That's so sad for me to hear your story, Q of S.

I remember the Chick tracts. You can read a bunch of them online, at their site.

They'd be funny, if they weren't so tragic, eh?

How do you feel your conversion in that manner affected you and your beliefs on down the road?

Vacation Bible school--tricking my kids?

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