Sunpiper Press / Sunpiper Media Publishing

[Chamran]

I don't remember what site but I thought I read some bad reports. Can anyone verify?

[Chamran]

Has anyone dealt with Sunpiper press?

[vstrauss]

According to its website info, it's a literary e-zine. However, it may also publish books represented by the associated literary agency, Sunpiper Literary and Consulting. This literary agency offers a number of paid adjunct services such as manuscript consulting and "test marketing", whatever that is--a conflict of interest--and there's no evidence it has made any sales or that its owner has prior professional publishing experience.

- Victoria

[robdee3]

Dear Forum,
I have attempted all day long to straighten out the false accusations made by Preditors and Editors about Sunpiper Literary. I am posting the accusations made by Mr. Kuminski of P&E (Mr. K) and the responses given to him by Sunpiper (Mr. D). Read the statements and make your own decision. I stand behind every word. All I want is the truth to be known. No more, no less.
Thank you
---------------------
Mr K.:
I would rather not find your company to be a scam. I tried to inform you gently that some of your company's activities are too similar to scams that have taken place so that you would know why P&E considers those as grounds for not recommending your agency.

Mr. D:
I would well like you to note that you included the word SIMILAR, meaning you have no proof and it is your opinion. Point taken to me, hopefully, point taken for you.

Mr. K:
Out of the hundreds of agencies, there are only two or three with publishing arms. They also consider those as separate businesses, but new writers can't distinguish the difference. Because of that, P&E doesn't make a distinction, either. One, in particular, even states that their publishing arm will not accept work from their agency in order to avoid any appearance of conflict. Consequently, P&E doesn't give them its "not recommended" rating.

Mr. D:
Furthermore, I would like for you to understand that people who REQUEST (mind you, they aren't solicited. There were several that contacted you about their submissions to Sunpiper Press and they knew full well why they were submitting) to be published are INDEPENDENT PUBLISHERS who do not belong to publishing houses. The Sunpiper Press submission guidelines state that they should not send in work that they think might need protection. I don't tell them to copyright it first then send it in, I TELL THEM NOT TO SEND IT IN IF IT CAN BE SOLD. You speak about appearance---again, NOT FACT.

Mr. K:
Additionally, I tried to get you to distinguish whether the publication you operate is meant to be a catalogue or a regular publication. I also tried to get you to answer whether the authors, in particular those not represented by Sunpiper, who were published by it received any compensation. Like it or not, authors are entitled to something for their work when you use it not just once, but twice by including some of it in an anthology to be sold. The first instance when it's done for promotional purposes to benefit them is not a bad idea or action, but selling it in an anthology later is unless they're compensated since that falls under second printing rights.

Mr. D:
As I stated before, NO ONE IS COMPENSATED BY SUNPIPER PRESS TO POST AN ARTICLE. I don't charge them, they don't charge me. The anthology (again, you assume facts not in evidence) is regarding the essay contests where--I clearly stated, that there would be two annual awards of $500 given to winners and every essay used, the submitter would get a free copy of the book as compensation. No other work printed on Sunpiper Press will be in any kind of anthology--again, you assume or rely on "APPEARANCE"--not facts.

Mr. K:
I also tried to point out that you have some conflicting information in what's listed on your website and what you've stated to me in your emails. You list one individual on the website as an editor yet you state you send out work to be edited at your expense. If you mean that you send work to that in-house editor at your expense, then that's all I needed to know in your email. Your email that I'm now responding to definitely lays to rest that issue as a source.

Mr. D:
In-house, out-house. If I acquire an author and think the work needs editing, I am entitled to use whomever I choose as long as I'm paying the bill. Wouldn't you think? Ok, that was sarcastic and unprofessional--I apologize. I think that had actually put that concern to rest so I should have left it alone. Please forgive me--this hurt me really bad in the beginning but I'm beginning to have a little fun with it.

Mr. K.:
By the way, because you listed them as staff on your website, they're considered in-house regardless of their locations. Also, I do not comment on who, if anyone, shared complaints with P&E because we do not divulge journalistic resources.

Mr. D:
This is true and I will state for the record YOU DID NOT divulge anyone, nor have I asked you to. I think we can be professional and agree on this. But again, just for the record, am I required to uphold a contract with someone where there isn't one? I've spent 10 years in the legal profession, Mr. Kuminski. If I tell people submitting to Sunpiper Press, "Sunpiper Press is a non-paying market. I promise to give you a byline if I post. I'm not going to try and sell your work." What obligations does that put upon me? NONE However, if I have a signed contract (which again, was taken directly from the National Writer's Union website) and everyone that has one signed with my signature on it says that I have followed everything within that contract and NOT ONE OF THEM HAVE SPENT A DIME OF THEIR OWN MONEY, where are you getting your facts? Again, I can only relate to your words of "similar" and "appearance"---but your listings are not based on facts--HARD FACTS. You've got to admit that now----come on? Right? Right? No? Oh well--I still think so and I think my clients will think so too.

Mr. K.:
As to copyright, it is considered standard within the industry for the publication to obtain copyright for each issue, not the author. Beyond that, Federal law changed in 1989 so that registration is no longer required for copyright protections to apply to one's written work. Formal registration is necessary only when seeking damages in court. In other words, copyright protection is considered automatic now in the US for most writings save a few exceptions which you can find listed on the website of the US Copyright office. Having the author apply for copyright for excerpts and short stories that are published in your publication effectively puts the expense on them for protecting your publication. And as far as books, a registered copyright on a manuscript, in order to print an excerpt, will drive away many publishers from considering a submission for reasons I outlined before.

Mr. D:
Please quote to me whom I've told to get a copyright? Again, on the Sunpiper Press submission guidelines I express NOT TO SEND ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PROTECTED OR COPYRIGHTED. I do not want to give away free what can be sold. People who submit excepts from their novels already have a copyright. THEY ARE INDEPENDENTLY PUBLISHED THEREFORE THEY ARE NOT SEEKINNG PUBLISHERS SO WHY DO THEY CARE IF THEY DRIVE THEM AWAY? Most of them are frustrated with the beauacracy within the publishing industry is the specific reason why they go independently. I have NEVER asked anyone to copyright their work, just to make sure they submit something they are not trying to sell and the stuff that they sell is protected.

Mr. K.:
I do apologize for not giving you the full answer initially when you first contacted me. However, I had to review your site and my notes to make certain that I gave you a full answer and did so when I found there was more than one reason. Beyond all this, I do not apologize for P&E taking a strict and narrow viewpoint using its criteria. When your website was previously reviewed and rated, it presented several obvious conflicts of interest based upon P&E's criteria which were developed based upon what successful agencies did and what scams did instead.

Mr. D.:
When my site was PREVIOUSLY (I'm guessing that means when you were still neutral because I remember you had it stated that you had no information that Sunpiper charged for their editing services---I might also add that if that was the issue, you stated above that I had eased your concern--but I still get a negative connotation) reviewed and rated, it presented several obvious conflicts of interest----this is your statement. My question to you, Mr. Kuminski, is, "How many times did you contact me to respond to any of those "obvious conflicts". I can tell you how many, NONE. But someone mentions something (unfounded), it was like the Bat signal being flashed into the night sky, being the thorough Watchdog company, you labeled me in a negative connotation and THEN I have to contact you to get any answers. Is this good business? Are you giving people good information from fact or just "Dave's opinion"? You NEVER ASKED ME--I had to come to you.

Mr. K.:
If you do not want a "not recommended" for your site from P&E, then I suggest you not mention "editing" as one of your featured services as that gives a wrong impression. You can always discuss the need for editing with authors you want to represent and let them know it will be free, though why you'd want to offer that is beyond me since it's an expensive proposition and offers no guarantees that a publisher will find the work you represent to be any better.

Mr. D.:
You question why I want to offer my clients editing services---and I'm paying for it? It is an expensive proposition and offers no guarantees that a publisher will find the work you represent to be any better.........hmmmmm. Have you ever read un-edited work? As my website states, I'm more interested in developing TALENT, not droids. How can you make this statement and at the same time imply that your service is for the little guy? Oh, did I mention that Robert Denson III of Sunpiper Literary & Consulting pays for the editing? I want to slide that in, just in case I haven't said that. There are young people out there that want to be heard and there are beauracrats that don't want to listen (I'm not saying any names)

Mr. K.:
Another action you can take is to stop recommending that authors register their copyrights. It's not necessary and it's counterproductive to what you and they are trying to accomplish in gaining an acceptance with a legitimate royalty-paying book publisher.

Mr. D.:
For the umpteenth time, I am not telling people to copyright their work---however, I do copyright drafts of manuscripts for some authors that might come up with an original idea and storyline (original idea--what a concept). That is just in case someone tries to STEAL that original idea. If a publisher picks up a manuscript and runs it after they have done all of their changes, the only one with legal standing to refute a copyright is.....the author. And why would they do such if a publishing company is signing a contract? And if they sign over the contracts, they give the publisher rights to publish it. Mr. Kuminski, do you have auto insurance? If you do, it is obviously because you have a wreck every day. Why else would YOU take out insurance if you don't need it?

Mr. K.:
Lastly, decide whether you want to produce a catalogue or a regular publication. A catalogue is not a conflict of interest, but a regular publication is. Not only that, but a regular publication uses up print rights, as does an anthology. I suggest you limit it to your represented authors and use it as a catalogue for publishers to view even though many are reluctant to cruise the Internet seeking manuscripts since most, if not all, are flooded with submissions. Basically, what I'm trying to say here is this method has been tried several times over the last eight years. Only one site that I know of has ever managed to make any sales to legitimate publishers in that way. So far, I believe they've made only three in the last four years, though that number could now be higher. You'll have to decide what to do with the anthology idea. Though it sounds noble, it's basically a losing proposition for your agency since most anthologies do not sell well, particularly when all the authors are not well known or do not include any notable names that the public would seek out. Couple that with the obligation you want to take on of sponsoring a contest for young writers with large monetary prizes and it becomes another huge expense on you.

Mr. D.:
You suggest I limit to represented authors (even though its whole intention was to help all authors and readers)---"The idea has been tried many times over the last eight years. Only one site has ever managed to make any sales to legitimate publishers in that way." Again, didn't I say that Sunpiper Press did not make money. It is a spotlight and showcase for EXPOSURE. That is it. No one is going to buy anything off the site---except Independent publishers that place excerpts of their books for people to see and get interest. Then, people will buy their book and Sunpiper gets......Sunpiper gets........ummmm.....I'm not getting any revenue on that--only the author. Then you state "Though it sounds noble, it's basically a losing propositin for your agency since most anthologies do not sell well, particularly when all the authors are not well known................." Mr. Kuminski, that statement is the very reason why new writers don't get an opportunity. NO ONE WANTS TO GIVE THEM A CHANCE. "....sponsoring a contest for young writers with large monetary prizes and it becomes another huge expense for you." Mr. Kuminski---MY GOD---Mr. Kuminski--that is what it is all about. Giving back and giving hope---and you frown upon this--saying I'm shady. I only wished someone would have been willing to listen to me when I was young. How can you be the Watchdog for new writers when you are discouraging me from HELPING OTHERS?

Mr. K.:
While you may be following guidelines from P&E, there is still an appearance based upon what's on your website that speaks otherwise. I really think you should review your site. Perhaps you will see how it can be interpreted differently. As I stated above, I'm not looking to label you or anyone as a scam, but P&E follows its rating criteria very strictly. Mind you, there are some very large, legitimate, professional agencies that are also not recommended by P&E because they have operations that P&E considers out of line with its criteria. We don't make exceptions for anyone. If a business within the writing industry wants a positive recommendation from P&E, they have to live up to our criteria. Therefore, if the wording gives a wrong impression, we can only judge by what we can view and not by the intentions that we can't see within the person.

Mr. D.:
Dave, I'm sure by now that you are aggrevated with me. Good reason---I was very sarcastic. Tis my personality. Some find it cute BUT MOST DON'T. Through all of my sarcasm, I still believe that you are doing something good. Don't ever stop. To learn on yesterday that you gave me that listing was DEVASTATING to the least. It shook the foundation of my company and some of my writers. I was first angry with you---but I wanted to be professional and present my side---that didnt' work. Some of my authors were uproared and myself, constantly being in the legal field theorized a lawsuit. For you to set criteria for certain listings on your site, list all the negative activity, then label someone that is an indirect accusation of unethical and unlawful behavior. There are laws against that, Mr. Kuminski. It's called libel and you are responsible if you cannot PROVE your claim....and I know that you can't. I even wanted to suggest that you just remove Sunpiper's name ALTOGETHER from your site and let people investigate through my clients----but I don't think any of that matters to you. I knew, when I began, that I would be an oddball in this business because I did not THINK like editors and publishers. My methods may have been tried and failed by others, but my success and reward comes from making a difference and helping change people's lives---not from the amount of money I make. I am a black man born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama---the HEART of Dixie, believe me, this is not the first time I've been black-balled (excuse the pun). But I will make a difference, Mr. Kuminski. I will change lives. Sunpiper will succeed in its goal. Check back with me in 5 years---you are going to be surprised. I'm out to make a difference---the money will come afterwards.
All smart alec comments aside, Dave (if I can still call you that), I did not mean my statements in a hateful manner. My sarcasm is a way of having fun but I was not trying to have it at your expense--and if I did, I apologize. Thank you for the advice, thank you for the scrutiny and thank you for making this a learning experience for me. You keep doing what you do. I think a little different about Preditors and Editors as I did before, but hey---you think a bit different about me--so I guess we are even. You made the statement earlier that you thought I used this as a "promotional tool" and my thought, at the time, was that was furthest from the truth---but you know what? What I have stated to you today is what Robert Denson III and Sunpiper Literary & Consulting stands for and if people don't like that stance---they shouldn't work with me. They have that choice, but I won't change who I am to appease them. I have more character than that---------SO, IT'S JUST ME AGAINST THE WORLD. A rebel WITH a wonderful cause.

I'm not going to keep bothering you. Again I thank you.

Much Respect

Robert Denson III

[robdee3]

I hope my posting answered your question as to my Goodness or Evil intentions. Thanks, at least, for your interest.

Respectfully,
Robert Denson III
rdenson@sunpiper.com

[HapiSofi]

Well, that settles it. Sunpiper may or may not be intended to be an honest undertaking -- and some of its practices are those we associate with dishonest ones -- but either way, its proprietor has no idea what he's doing.

[robdee3]

You say that my company uses practices that "we associate with dishonest ones". Who is we? If I may ask. And, what of which I stated in the post do you deem "dishonest"? I guess, bottom line is, I don't have a problem with you saying "In my opinion, this guy's plan is never going to work." And I don't mind you calling me names or stating your opinion that "I don't have a clue." You are most certainly free to your opinion, however, if you are going to publicly call me "dishonest", don't you need to base that on my actions, not what you "think" I'm doing. I will be glad to give you a list of ALL of the people that have worked with me and they will speak for me. For you not to know me, never worked with me and label me "dishonest" is wrong.

[SKMartin]

I am an author (signed by a contract) with Sunpiper Literary & Consulting. I am quite familiar with the press that you are all referring to. But why all the negative? Mr. Denson has only provided a platform for younger writers to display their work for FREE! Anything and everything that has to do with the press is out of his pocket and asks for NOTHING in return. In fact, he has taken it upon himself to have my work reviewed and edited without asking me for so much as a penny out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, we have gotten to a place where our society doesn't believe that a person can do anything for the greater good without trying to "get something" out of it. What a shame. I commend Mr. Denson for defending what he believes in, especially since his authors know how dedicated he is to his profession, as well as his ethics. I can understand how businesses in the past have skewed a writer's view, but this is a legitimate business supporting new and established writers. I certainly wouldn't be putting my dreams into an amateur's hands. Mr. Denson has proved to me that he's got what it takes. And as for the press--it's a wonderful FREE thing!

[Jesse45034]

I have know Mr. Denson with Sunpiper for about six months. I was looking for an agent and he seemed interested. After a couple of months and a lot of emails, I decided to take a chance with him. Here is what I have learned:

Regardless of how his website may read, he has never charged me for anything or tried to refer me to a for-fee service. My book was read by an editor who made suggestions at no cost to me, a review was done by a reviewer at Publisher's Weekly at no cost to me, a book cover was developed at no cost to me, and submissions have been made to publishers, again at no cost. Perhaps I am just lucky, but I think not.

It seems to me that Mr. Denson has good intentions, but some of his ambitions to help new writers have been misinterpreted. I noticed the "services" offered, but since he was paying for them (in my case anyway), I was not concerned. If anyone has had a different experience, I would like to know. Somehow I think he has not done this.

Anyway, I think he is getting a bad rap on P&E. Still, it might be a good idea to make a few changes to his website to clarify exactly how he is operating his business. Does he know what he is doing? I think he has a clear goal and high ideals, but may be lacking in experience. I cannot hold that against him because I am not exactly an expert at this publishing stuff either. I do have a great respect for his ambitions.

I hope P&E get off his back until they can determine what, if anything, he has done to get the "Not Recommended" label.

Jesse

[SimonSays]

Why would an agent waste time and money (either his or yours) developing a book cover for an ms he's repping?

Why would he waste time getting reviews for an ms that does not have a publisher? Why would a reviewer at PW waste THEIR time reviewing a book that has not been or is not about to be released?

Most agents use their sales skills to convince their contacts to read their client's work. They pick up a phone, or send an email or take them to lunch. Most agents have a palm pilot full of contacts at all the publishing houses. They do not design book covers or get reviews to garner interest. Their belief in the project garners interest.

It sounds to me that regardless of Mr. Denson intentions what he lacks is both knowledge and contacts in the industry. An agent with neither of those things is basically useless.

[SKMartin]

WOW! So quick to judge! I certainly can not speak for Mr. Denson, but I believe that he is only trying to go above and beyond the call of duty to strengthen his backbone within the literary community. I suppose that there is a certain internal structure to follow--but how can it hurt to expose your clients and establish a potential fan base before your their book is officially released? Essentially, it boils down to this: If we don't make money--he doesn't make money. Bottom line. If he wants to try other avenues to get his author's going, and out of his own pocket, nonetheless--you won't catch me complaining. Let's face it; he is new to the game, but it takes time to execute a good plan. He's definitely got the plan and now all he needs is the time. This post will only fuel his ambition and he'll try that much harder! THANKS!!!!!

[topaz]

I have dealt with Sunpiper Press. They have one of my stories featured at the moment. They have promised me that they would never use my stories for profit without my consent first. Sunpiper Press is a good stepping stone for building a portfolio. They should be commended for spotlighting new and emerging talent.

[SimonSays]

Just because you are not being scammed does not mean you are being helped.

One of his authors refers to Mr. Denson as "a major player in the industry." Obviously Mr. Denson wants to project that image because he has chosen to have that particular quote on the Sunpiper site.

To be a "major player" in the industry implies MAJOR sales to MAJOR houses. It implies a reputation throughout the industry. I'm sure if you conducted a poll of actual PLAYERS in the publishing industry - none of them will no who Mr. Denson is. So how can he possibly be a major player?

His authors who have been previously published are alumni of Publish America and America House - two glorified vanity publishers. It's nice to see these writers have taken the step to seek representation this time around, but methinks they have not done all of their homework.

Again, I cannot speak for Mr. Denson's intentions and whether they are noble or not. But he is definitely representing himself as something he is not. Whether he will one day be what he claims to be remains to be seen. But the fact that he claims to be something he is not does not bode well for the future.

[robdee3]

Simon,
I have made no such claims. I have NEVER told anyone I was a 'big shot' or a 'major player'. As a matter of fact, I have only represented that I am NEW in the business and my intentions is to grow. Did you read my website and the About Us page? I state:
------------------------
Robert Denson, author/poet, founded Sunpiper Literary & Consulting, P.C. in January of 2004. His mission was to create a platform to promote and support writers with unique voices that are often left out or overlooked by mainstream literary circles.

Robert would much rather look at himself as an Executive Producer than a literary agent.

"I think regular literary agents look for good projects to represent; projects based on popular culture that are hot at the moment. That is how they generate revenue. Nevertheless, if your work doesn't fit their profile, they won't accept it. It's the way of the business."
----------------------
I then go on to say:
----------------------
Robert's idea of creating success in the literary market is based on author exposure and extensive marketing. Not just big banners, but grass root marketing.

"Some authors think that the only way to have a successful book is to have it accepted by a large publisher. Does Sunpiper wish to work with publishers like Bantam, Doubleday, Viking or Warner-of course! Who wouldn't? But making a work successful does not amount to success. Though these companies provided excellent resources, you still need to market your product. With effective marketing, a large publisher is a great benefit, but it is not an absolute must."
-------------------------

Are these the words of a man trying to misrepresent anything? I'm not asking you to think I'm the greatest literary agent in the world. I'm not asking anyone to endorse me. All I am requesting is that you not label me "dishonest". That's all my friend. I have worked hard to INVEST and help cultivate authors with a message. You don't have to insult me for investing in something and someone I believe in.

Don't judge me unless you know me. If I mistreat you, tell the world! But don't label me or insult me because I don't fit your mold.

Robert Denson III
rdenson@sunpiper.com

[SimonSays]

“Robert Denson* is a major player in the industry.* I know that he and his staff at Sunpiper will give my book the most professional treatment and the greatest exposure possible.* I look forward to working with the entire staff.”

Robert - the above quote comes directly off your website from one of your author pages.

Obviously somehow this author got the impression that you are a major player - as no amount of research in the world would ever lead someone to draw that conclusion, I assume he got the impression from you.

Your decision to include the erroneous quote on this author's page leads me to believe you are looking to perpetuate that perception by others who read the page.

[James D Macdonald]

Sunpiper is excited to represent Emanuel Carpenter and his new work of fiction that addresses the subjects of love, sex, marriage, divorce, and relationships. Carpenter, best known for his humor book, “A Job Ain’t Nothing But Work,” and for his book reviews at The Midwest Book Review, says he is very pleased to be represented by the agency. Carpenter was quoted as saying “Robert Denson is a major player in the industry. I know that he and his staff at Sunpiper will give my book the most professional treatment and the greatest exposure possible. I look forward to working with the entire staff.”


Sunpiper Authors (http://www.sunpiper.com/emanuel.html)

[robdee3]

You know, you are correct. And I have enough character to say that I was unaware that was stated on the site. But this is the only thing you address, Simon. What about the other things I stated? If I am man enough to tell you that I didn't realize that was there and have it removed, does your theory still hold water? And as you speak of RESEARCH, that is what all of this nonesense is about. People believing they know my intentions without talking to me, my clients or anyone that has worked with me. Who is guilty of not doing their homework? I'm many things my friend, but all I say is based upon FACTS. Everything you write here is based on your opinion--which you are entitled to--but can you make that opinion without knowing, talking and researching me?

Check the page tomorrow folks. It won't be there.

Robert

[SKMartin]

It's about to get ugly in here! Keep in mind that what someone else says about you, is simply their opinion. I thought that we learned that in elementary school?????????? Robert has never projected himself to be something that he is not. He's a new agent, trying to establish a new business, with the intention of helping undiscovered writers get a chance at some kind of a break. Oh...did I mention that he doesn't get paid if we don't sell books? Yeah, I thought I did. Maybe it's time to get off of his back. He's only trying to help us get a little further than we could on our own. I'm assuming that you have had extensive experience with agents and publishers, seeing how skeptical you are. Are you rich yet? Most of us won't be from writing, but it's nice to be able to share what we have written with the literary community. Maybe you should knock off that chip on your shoulder.

[Whachawant]

Everything you write here is based on your opinion--which you are entitled to--but can you make that opinion without knowing, talking and researching me?

---...nice shot!!---

[SimonSays]

I appreicate your admissions that you didn't know what your client said on his author page (not quite sure I believe it, but I appreciate it) It will be a sign of true integrity when and if you remove the misrepresentative statement from your website. I'll keep an eye out for that.

As for the rest, I made no mention of your exchange with Dave. I have no opinion on that one way or the other because I don't know enough.

I did do some research. I googled you and nothing came up. I checked out your website and found no sales. I checked out your authors and found the ones who had credits - were self-published credits.

Some of your authors came to your defense saying what you had done for them. It is my understanding that what you are doing for them (designing covers, getting reviews) is totally unnecessary. What you should be doing is getting their manuscripts into the hands of publishers. Preferably ones that pay writers rather than the other way around. Because you appear to be wasting time, energy and money on the other things, I can't help wondering how much you know about the business and how many contacts you have in the business. If you have contacts, why can't you get them to read a xeroxed, double spaced copy like all the other agents out there? Why do you feel you need reviews? Why isn't your belief in the project enough to get it read? It should be.

I have repeatedly said your intentions may indeed be noble. But intentions mean nothing if you don't have the knowledge base to back them up. And it is my belief that agents with no knowledge of the business or contacts in the business are useless.

I realize that agents have to start somewhere. But most of them start IN the business - either working for agents, publishers, etc. so by the time they take on their first client they already have a network of people and knowledge of publishing. Do you have either?

[nicepoet]

Hey! I'm a major player in my home and on my city block! And I've got something to say about all this. How 'bout the one from the Bible: "He who has not sinned, cast the first stone." Or similarly, the adage: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

Seems to me SimonSays is throwing stones, and without provocation or from having had some personal negative experience with Sunpiper.

Perhaps Simon (may I call you Simon?), you have a chip on your shoulder? I have a few too. Mainly against hunger, poverty, crime, war and people who don't appreciate Robert Frost! But so what? I see no reason to take it out on Sunpiper or even upon any minor player who's making ends meet working down at the local Taco Bell. Give Mr. Denson and Sunpiper a break or at least the benefit of the doubt. They've victimized no one nor committed any act of wrongdoing. How 'bout waiting until they do something wrong before assuming they have and discoursing upon it in non sequitur prolificity? Consider the Old Abe quote: "If you look for the bad in someone, you will surely find it."

I won't look for it in you, Simon. So don't you look for it in Sunpiper or anyone else without justification. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country. Or am I mistaken? Are we living in communist Cuba?

So far, Sunpiper and everyone associated with Sunpiper have been courteous, professional and fair with me. So my chips are on their making a success of themselves and me and everyone associated with them. Why assume the worst? And not the best?

And I believe they are honest and above board until proven otherwise. As for those other kinds of chips I mentioned a moment ago, I will continue to hurl them at hunger, poverty, crime and war, and at people who don't appreciate Robert Frost! Okay, I forgive people who don't appreciate Robert Frost. Albeit reluctantly!

[SimonSays]

Nice Poet -

I have said in every single solitary post on this subject that Mr. Denson's intentions may indeed be honorable.

But I don't think it's a leap to question how he is representing himself when one of own clients perceives him to be a major player in the industry when he clearly is not.

Many new authors do not know how the publishing industry operates so they jump in and take the first offer that comes along. The publishing industry operates on contacts. It's who you know. If an agent has no contacts, then he cannot do his job for his clients. It is not true that most agents will not give new writers a chance. Most agencies do accept queries from writers regardless of their publishing experience. They accept and reject clients based on quality and marketability.

If Mr. Denson wants to represent authors who's work is niche oriented and off the beaten path, that is fine. As long as he has relationships with publishers who publish niche oriented work that is off the beaten path. And if he does have those contacts, then he should not have to be wasting his time with reviews and book cover design. He should be picking up the phone and pushing your work.

As a side note, I can't help noticing that all Mr. Denson's defenders are first time posters on this site. However did you all find out that this little discussion was going on here? Did he send out a mass email to his entire client list informing you he was being dissed? Do you all have esp? Are you all the same person posting under different names? Hmmmm....

I can't imagine a legit agent even bothering with such nonsense.

[robdee3]

First of all, let’s get something straight—I’m not faulting Dave. I apologize for misspelling his name—it is Kuzminski. Dave is doing what he think is right just as I am—we just don’t see eye to eye.

As for the post, when you mentioned it, I did remember Emanuel sending out a free press release but I did not realize the statement was on MY website. You can believe me or not but, check the website tomorrow. I’ve sent the request to my web designer.

As for my connections, I’ll shout to the world, “MY BACKGROUND IS IN LAW AND MANAGEMENT, NOT PUBLISHING.” I’m not ashamed of that and I don’t claim otherwise, but as you so eloquently stated, my authors are either self-published or went POD (except Steve Manchester). These people have already been mistreated by the literary marketplace and if you read my website, you will see that my whole purpose was to benefit the underdog.

I believe that there is strength in numbers. I believe success comes from exposure and making sure you seek out your targeted market. This was the reason I established Sunpiper Press—for exposure. During my creation, I decided that I could allow independent authors to showcase their work as well—the more the merrier. They supply an excerpt from their novel; my readers read it, find interest and possibly buy their book. I don’t make any money from that, but I did help someone---and that’s all I’m trying to do.

Simon, if you are a writer (and I’m sure you are) you know that there is nothing more important than someone appreciating your work. I want younger people to get interested in writing because, if you are a writer, you know how wonderful it is to learn to express your creativity. I got into this business because I enjoy it, not because I’m trying to get rich. My investment is for LONG TERM success. One day, I will be a “major player” in the literary market, but not tomorrow. Mr. Carpenter’s statement might have been premature, but not necessarily untrue.

Look, I’m trying a different route and each person that approaches me about representation knows that. If you research my website, I’m a rebel in this business trying different methods because there are a lot of people out there that are tired of the bureaucrats that don’t want to hear them. I haven’t promised any of my clients that I will make them rich, but I have promised that I would invest and help them. Tell me what is wrong with that?

Each and every client I have knows that they can terminate their contract, no strings attached, at anytime---but they choose not to. Why do you think that is, Simon? My philosophy is that if the hierarchy won’t listen to one of them, they will listen to a multitude. There are a lot of people who believe in what I am doing to help authors and support me. But, because I don’t fit your mold, you call me incompetent. That’s not fair.

The first week I launched Sunpiper Press in September, I got about 35 hits and 5 people join my forum. By the end of month, I had over 500 hits and 55 people signed up. Now I’m averaging about 1200 hits a month. That’s pretty good exposure for a struggling author—don’t you think? No, I’m not making money, but I am REACHING PEOPLE. The better the audience, the more likely the success---for ANYONE because it’s free. Tell me what is wrong with that Simon? Why do you label me dishonest?

And as for your last shot here. I am spending my time talking to the likes of you because I value the ordinary people. I don't sit up in a high rise and pretend I know all and I'm big stuff. You don't know it, Simon, but I'm reaching people now. And those that are not as smug will hear the message and gravitate.

Simon, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE COMMON MAN. You'd be amazed at the strength of the human spirit.

All of you reading this that think I'm full of crap--that is your opinion. As I told Mr. Kuzminski--check back in 5 years.

What exactly do you do for a living Simon? You can pick me apart and tell me everything I am doing wrong---I'm wondering why you have so much time to spend here. I'm defending my character---what are you defending?

[SKMartin]

See Simon, it's like this--we've already become a family at Sunpiper. We all support one another because we have all been selected--not only for our work, but also for our character. After talking to other authors represented by Sunpiper, I believe that to be true. Don't think that our manuscripts aren't being submitted, just because Robert takes additional measures that the competition doesn't! HELLO! I see that you have been scorned, probably more than once, and I am truly sorry that you feel it necessary to shun the underdog. However, I'm not going anywhere! It's so sad to be such a pessimist--isn't it Simon?

[SKMartin]

And by the way, I am a member under my real name here. I joined this particular forum under my pseudonym for a good reason. I figured that if you took it upon yourself to dig into my business, you'd possibly find any potential mistakes on my website and then I wouldn't have to worry about hiring someone to edit for me. (Yes...I am naturally this sarcastic.) Love ya, Simon. And I understand that you're looking out for people JUST LIKE ME, but you've got this one ALL WRONG!

[Whachawant]

But intentions mean nothing if you don't have the knowledge base to back them up.

This statement Simon, is wrong.

Explain to me then the people who took a chance on their creativity, for which we base our(and your) so called knowledge on.....

Somebody took a concept and invented the combustible engine. The Wright brothers were criticized for their actions till the damn plane flew, then the naysayers were man enough to admit they were wrong.
Do you know this quote...."Experience is the only true form of knowledge"....

Do you know who said that... ?... ALBERT EINSTEIN!!!
...one of the world's most known intelligent men... and for him to say something so noble, speaks more volumes of support....than your criticism could ever diminish.....


If Robert wants to try a new route... let him.
Good luck to you, Robert.

[Chamran]

Since I started this post I guess I should chime In. New to the business I thought I has a ms. ready for submitting. Thanks to Mr. Denson I find I was about to make a serious blunder to my writing career. Tho the book is good it does need refinement and Mr. Denson, knowing I have no money, has offered his support and help free of charge. Also the man is rewriting the short story I thought was a synopsis free of charge. Now if your ship was taking on water and Mr. Denson came along with a pump what would you do? I don't have a fancy education nor has my life been easy. But I do love to write so why should I be shot down because I'm a nobody. If Mr. Denson wants to help me but it doesn't follow the 'Ol boys rule, then let the 'ol boys take a look at the rules. Laws are ratiffied every year because old laws soon become outdated. Now don't misunderstand, a code of ethics is needed to keep the scammers in line. But where's the scam when nothing more than help is being offered to someone not in the click!

[SimonSays]

I am a writer, Mr. Denson. That is how I support myself. Which gives me the luxury to procrastinate on sites such as this and engage in such stimulating dialogue.

And I am defending and trying to eductate the unknowledgeable writers out there so they can make the right choice, not the easy choice.

Based on what I've seen of your literary agency site - you are not trying to reinvent the wheel, here. All good agents target submissions based on genre etc. So how do you differ in that respect? The only difference seems to be that they know the business and have contacts in the business and you do not.

I have no issues with a website that allows writers to post their work per se, but I am somewhat confused. You claim that you "believe success comes from exposure and making sure you seek out your targeted market". A definite truism. However the publishing industry is a "push" industry and websites such as yours are a "pull" technology - so I don't see how you can reach your targeted market with your model.

In addition you talk about power in numbers etc. but I wonder how you plan to change an industry where all parties within the system are happy with the status quo. The traditional publishers, published authors and book buyers are all quite content.

The only discontent comes from those outside the system - those authors who cannot get published. And quite a large number of those who cannot get published cannot get published because they are not good writers.

I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am just confused by your vision as it seems totally disregard the reality of the publishing world.

That said, I wish you much success.

[SimonSays]

Whatchwant,

Maybe you and I just see the world differently, but I think that if you have a business where other people are depending on you, then yes, you have an obligation to have the knowledge base to be able to serve them.

You shouldn't open a salon, unless you actually learn how to cut hair and are licensed to do so. You shouldn't do peoples taxes if you don't understand the tax code. And you shouldn't be an agent if you don't know the business.

You are free to disagree. You are free to walk around with a bad haircut and a tax lien on your property if you choose.

[SKMartin]

The wealthiest author in the world (and we all know who that is) was first published by a small publisher. And then only after she established a decent following, did she get picked up by Scholastic. It didn't land in her lap. We all have to start somewhere!

And for the record--you CAN get published traditionally without an agent. I would personally prefer to have someone with a good heart and a REAL interest in ME and my dreams, than an agent with too many clients and not enough time to think twice about me. I've weighed my pros and cons and feel that Sunpiper is the best choice for me.

Good luck to you all!

[Whachawant]

Well first of all Simon, you've probably walked into places that you think are run with amazing professionalism, yet the owner is probably a former dishwasher for MA AND PA'S restaurant.
Oh and your doctor, owes part of his profession to the inquisitive nature of an artist who mapped out the anatomy....!!!


Also I want you to keep in mind the richest man in the world, who has a high school diploma and that's it, took a concept, marketed it to the fullest without prior business management training and has achieve more success and has paved the way for those so called 'informed and experienced' people.

I also don't think anybody here should take advice from a writer who consistently has proved poor editing and observation. Spell the name right.......!!! "WHACHAWANT"

I don't think you're a bad guy, Simon. I know your intentions are meant well... but sometimes ya gotta take a back seat.

Go for the gusto, Robert!!

[robdee3]

Simon,

I'm not out to change the world--just to make a difference. You call my technique a "pull" situation, however, if I can go to a publisher and tell him or her, "I have immediate access to 20,000 readers (I don't right now so don't think I'm making a false representation) that I could contact about marketing, do you not think it would be favorable?

No, I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, just roll it in a different direction. If you haven't been able to tell, the people that get involved with Sunpiper Press feel like they are a part of something. They get to discuss things, just like we are doing here, and get to submit work for the world to see. People like to count for something---I'm just trying to listen to them and spread what they have to say.

Dave Kuzminski wrote and article about the direction publishing was headed and he hit it right on point. Just like people are tired of getting screwed by the record companies because they charge so much, there was a revolution--which spawned Napster, Imusic, etc. These guys were rogues, but they SWAPPED ideas. Do you think the guys at Napster were incompetent? MP3's are the norm now. I'm considered a old man because I still go to Best Buy on Tuesdays.

The strength is not always going to rest in the hands of the elite. People want to be heard. I just want to help them be heard. I'm not swindling anyone--just trying a different route. Like you said, however, some people don't get published because they aren't good writers---but what about people with good ideas? That is why I hire professionals to edit, review, etc. I want to build on the positive idea--not just tell the person they suck and kick them to the curb.

Traditional publishers and book buyers are content right now because they have a monopoly on the market. They get to pick and choose. All I'm suggesting is that I give the ordinary guy the opportunity to choose what they like, instead of the stuffed shirts.

I don't mean any disrespect to you either, Simon. It just seems like I'm being bashed because I'm not following the status quo. I never intended to follow the status quo and I don't tell anyone that I work with that I am.

[robdee3]

No one said it would be easy going against the grain. I'm glad someone is hearing what I'm saying.

Robert

[SimonSays]

whach-

I am not an Education snob as in those with no formal degree are inferior -

I am an education advocate as in learn what you need to know so that you can do what you want to do well and will not be scammed.

You are free to agree who disagree - but the fact remains that those who got sucked in by the likes of PA or ST Lit did not take the time to learn what real agents and publishers do.

As for the subject on this thread - it is clear by the "you gotta start somewhere" responses that again there is a lack of understanding of how things actually work.

I wished Robert the best, and I meant it. I'm just not personally interested in being someone else's lab rat.

[robdee3]

Simon,
You obviously already have connections. That's great. You don't need me and I never suggested that you did. But just because you made it, doesn't mean that everyone else has the same opportunity.

Barnes and Noble might buy 20,000 copies of your book and distribute them across the country. What is the difference if I am, one day, able to sell 20,000 books, one on one. Isn't the result the same? The author sold 20,000 books.

I never suggested it would be easy, but it can be done.

[Whachawant]

"I am an education advocate as in learn what you need to know so that you can do what you want to do well and will not be scammed."
---those who are educated can/have been scammed and could also be scammers---

not personally interested in being someone else's lab rat.

---Understandable.---

Cheers to ya.

[SKMartin]

Good luck, Simon. I see that what you're doing so far is really working for ya. It's too bad that you have been successfully sucked into their way of thinking.

I prefer to think outside of the box.

It takes ordinary people to make extraordinary things happen. Sure, the big companies are calling all of the shots, but if they see something out there doing well, they tend to swoop in and pick it up. Like Mr. Denson said, "Check back in 5 years." I think that you might be surprised!

[SimonSays]

Rob -

I think your Napster comparison is a little off base.

The suits did not have problems with Napster because they were giving unsigned bands a chance to succeed outside the label system and giving consumers more choice or because the band's were being compensated directly instead of through royalties. The issue was that copyrighted music produced by the labels was being distributed to the masses without compensating the labels. The bands weren't being compensated either, incidentally.

And I think they had every right to be angry about it. They put hundreds of millions of dollars into producing and promoting the music so they could make a profit - then the music was essentially being stolen. Without profit incentive there would be no mass entertainment industry. Someone's gotta take a financial risk to put the stuff out there (and it's alot of money and a huge risk) - if there was no chance of getting your money back or making money why would any company bother? The answer is, they wouldn't.

Having access to 20K potential readers and having those 20K plunk down 12.95 for a book are two different things. I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful - but the actual buy rates from that 20K audience would probably be about 1 or 2% - I don't think a publisher would have an incentive to publish a book - because an agent comes to them offering an expected 400 copies in sales.

I was not aware that there was any outcry from the book readers of the world, that their needs are not being met. I have yet to see picketers in the street demanding more fantasy books or less chick lit. Go to any bookstore and the breadth and depth of options, genres, style, subject matter - pretty much covers every issue known to mankind. What is the common man hoping for that he is not finding? I'd really like to know. I think the outcry is from the authors, not the readers. And if you are offering readers free reads instead of reads they have to pay for - I can understand the appeal. But writers deserve to be paid for their efforts and you cannot pay them if no one is paying to read their stuff.

I guess I am a little suspect of any endeavor such as this when part of the appeal is "feeling a part of something". Agents sell books, they negotiate deals, occasionally they take you out to lunch. That is their role. Publishers publish books, they edit your books and market them, occasionally your editor may take you to lunch. That is their role. Writing is a passion, publishing is a business, not a cause.

That said, I wish you luck.

[SKMartin]

I'm glad that we're not playing a game of SIMON SAYS!

[robdee3]

However, since you are a writer and you are doing well--you are already in. That is wonderful for you and with the passion you write in these posts, I'd like to read one of your books (and I'm not saying that to be a smart ass--I'm really serious).

My comparison to Napster was not having to do with stealing the music, it was about the technology that spawned mp3's and ipods. All you have done, throughtout this thread, is to (professionally) tell me I'm stupid and I don't know what I'm doing (not in those words because you are a writer and much more tactful in your words of expression). But with all due respect, if you don't think there is a revolution going on in the publishing industry, you really are doing well as a writer and you don't see the little guy's point of view anymore.

Why do you think ebooks and POD's are becoming so much more popular? Have you checked out the forums of independent publishers lately? They are EVERYWHERE. They got tired of people rejecting their blood, sweat and tears and decided to go straight to the consumer.

Look at me as the legal, organized Napster (of which I'm a member). I'm looking for talent, like a diamond in the rough. Why do you just have to insist that I'm going to fail? You wish me luck and then you remind me that I'm incompetent to the publishing business. If you were truly wishing me luck, you could just do that and hope that I do well for my clients. Selling anything---ANYTHING---is about marketing. The reason McDonalds have so many billions sold is because they market to children. The children don't have money, but they convince their parents to take them there.

I have worked the majority of my professional career in the legal profession. With the laws of ethics, we cannot solicit people or send them random mailings, so a clientele builds off of word of mouth. Since there is an abundance of lawyers that are crooks, people love the one that goes all out for them and is honest. I've witnessed it first hand. Your popularity comes from your practice--not always from who you know.

Here's the bottom line Simon. I understand the skepticism people have about what I'm doing. That is why I don't charge them anything. If things fail--I lose money, not the author. If an author gets his/her manuscript edited and professionally reviewed, how does that hurt them? They can easily take that to someone else and benefit from it. Robert Denson is taking all the risks. Why is that bad?

[robdee3]

My webdesigner has told me to check the site. The statement has been removed. Thanks for pointing it out.
Robert

[SimonSays]

Rob -

you are not the only one taking the risks. Your clients are taking huge risks if like Emanuel they believe that you are a major player or if you, in any way are responsible for their belief that "you gotta start somewhere", "established agents only sign established writers" "the major publishers won't publish first time authors so you have to think outside the box" or "you shouldn't have to deal with rejection".

Those are all fallacies. Many many agents DO sign unpublished authors, publishers DO publish first time authors, You do not "have to start somewhere" i.e. outside the establishment of the NY publishing world. And no matter how good you are Rejection is part of the journey. Develop a thick skin and deal with it.

On the other hand, if you do not have the talent you are never going to be published legitimately.

Your previously published clients are all vanity published, which means in most cases they were clueless about how the publishing industry really operates when they signed with Publish America or America House. My question is how much less clueless are they now? Based on their posts here, they seem to still be buying all the crap that PA shovels at its authors about publishing. It appears that you are perpetuating the idea that they have no shot at legitmate traditional publishing.

All of my comments have been geared toward your role as agent - not what you are doing at Sunpiper Press. It sounds like your business model includes a certain amount of crossover i.e. using the Sunpiper Press subscriber list to leverage your shot at getting your clients published. There does appear to be the potential for conflict of interest in that scenario. Or at the very least overextending your time.

I do wish you luck Robert, I just hope that you are not misinforming your clients and limiting their chances at success to further you own agenda.

[DaveKuzminski]

From what I've seen and stated before to Mr. Denson, he's not dishonest. I am concerned that he might be spending more than can be expected on the ROI, but that's something he has to deal with. He may also be going at some matters in the wrong order, but that's his choice. Who knows? He might succeed by doing something backwards to what is expected.

As he has stated quite accurately, we just don't see eye to eye on some matters. I go very strictly by the criteria that P&E uses for judging businesses within the publishing industry. Often, that means judging on appearances because it's those appearances that the real scammers feed upon.

For example only: As some of us know, the scams will charge a reading fee and justify it on the grounds that some legitimate agencies charge reading fees. Of course, we know that the scams pocketed the fees without doing anything while the legitimate agencies actually read what was submitted.

Consequently, P&E simply is unwilling to recommend any business that practices procedures or policies that provide justification for scammers to point at. For instance, P&E is not adverse to Sunpiper providing free editing. In fact, we know that there are a number of agents that do just that. However, P&E feels that Sunpiper should not list that as one of their services. Those other agents don't because it gives a wrong impression that scammers can then point at as justification of their own wrongful activity. It also attracts writers whose work is simply too much in need of work. After all, it's up to the writer to do most of the writing and that means having a manuscript that's ready to offer rather than one in need of significant editing.

The more serious matter that concerned P&E was his publication. Viewed as a catalogue meant to be seen by publishers, P&E feels it can be an excellent tool. Additionally, it also features non-clients' work. They may be getting exposure and if that is what they want, then it's still fine though it is taking advantage of Sunpiper. However, some of what's featured in that publication will end up in an anthology that will be sold. P&E feels that it can't truly be considered a catalogue under that circumstance, so P&E is concerned about the author's rights. Sunpiper states it is providing a copy of the anthology to each author, but the money it generates will go toward providing prizes in a contest for young writers. While this is noble sounding, it's neither practical nor likely to occur because none of the writers have enough draw for such an anthology to reasonably break even, let alone be expected to make a profit. Under such circumstances, they could be burning some of their print rights. P&E is of the opinion that Sunpiper should clarify just how their publication is to operate. I'm well aware that most, if not all, of their clients do not have any complaints at present. That, however, does not change the fact that the publication in its current form presents a conflict of interest for the agency unless it is strictly meant to function as a catalogue of clients' work meant primarily for publishers to view. P&E has no objection that others may view some of the excerpts that publishers might be meant to read since locking it away is impractical in the first place. After all, publishers would be less inclined to visit if doing so required going through password locked entrances that they first had to obtain keys for.

P&E's other concern had to do with some of the advice given to its authors. They were advised to get copyrights. In view of the fact that the laws now recognized manuscripts as copyrighted upon being placed on paper or other media, that is generally construed now as meaning getting the copyright registered. P&E feels that stating such to an author will cause them to do something that is counter-productive to their efforts at being published because many legitimate publishers look at a manuscript with a registered copyright upon it as an insult to their integrity. It's also counter-productive to Sunpiper since it's representing those manuscripts. Offering such registered works would be telling those publishers that Sunpiper doesn't trust them. With that in mind, it's bad advice and should be removed from any instructions on Sunpiper's guidelines and shouldn't be given as advice in any emails, either.

So, there we have it. P&E isn't opposed to Sunpiper's editing service, especially since it's free. We just feel that it shouldn't be mentioned as a service.

P&E isn't opposed to Sunpiper's publication if it's used solely as a catalogue meant for publishers. We're only opposed to it being sold as a publication meant for public consumption because that creates a conflict of interest and effectively transforms Sunpiper into a competing publisher for its own clients, even though the actual printing may be produced by some other company.

Lastly, P&E wants to see Sunpiper dispense accurate advice.

That's what it will take for P&E's current recommendation to change.

By the way, Robert, I'm flattered that you read some of my opinions. I don't think of myself as a heavyweight thinker, but I do appreciate that you took the time to read my work. In fact, I don't see myself as a heavyweight writer, either. I'm competent and I have fun with what I write in fiction. Probably my best trait is my integrity and I believe I see the same trait in you.

[vstrauss]

I'm feeling grumpy this evening, so I will abandon my usual attempts at tact and be harsher than Dave.

Mr. Denson is clearly well-intentioned. However, he has no professional publishing experience. Agenting is a highly skilled profession. To be successful as an agent, a person needs to have specialized expertise (such as the ability to recognize a salable manuscript and a knowledge of publishing contract terms--an understanding of copyright is also a good idea) and industry contacts (publishing house editors preferring to do business with people they know, either personally or by reputation). These are best acquired by actually working for a commercial publisher, or for another (reputable) agency. People who come to agenting from non-publishing-related fields rarely manage to make a go of it.

This has nothing to do with the old guard or elitism or any of that stuff about how the publishing times they are a-changin'. This is about basic competence to do a job.

It continually amazes me not only that people think they can dive into agenting with no preparation, as if they were selling Avon products, but that intelligent individuals who probably would expect the guy who rebuilds their back porch to have carpentry experience, or the real estate agent who sells their home to have real estate training, or the person who teaches their kids' piano lessons to know how to play the piano, think it's OK to sign with a literary agent who has no relevant training or experience. Perhaps this has to do with a lack of knowledge about exactly what training for a literary agent includes. But even if you're in the dark about that, why would you choose for your agent someone who has no proven record of success? For heaven's sake, you might as well go out and hire your friend Al to be your literary agent. Al might not be as motivated and enthused as Mr. Denson, but he probably has about the same qualifications.

- Victoria

[robdee3]

As I said before, Dave, this was not about you. I told you when I first contacted you that I thought highly of what you were doing with Preditors & Editors--and through all of my sarcasm and jokes, I don't think I ever said otherwise. I, do, appreciate what you do. I also feel like that butterfly and I am fighting hard to have the courage to do what I know is right without people labeling me as a scam artist.

As to the things you address as the reason you regard Sunpiper as "Not Recommended", please tell me if I am correct:

1. You have a problem with me "listing" editing services, so if I remove the words, this will no longer be a conflict.

2. You still have the idea of the all wrong about the anthology. Simon made fun of me because he feels, "Publishing is a business, not a cause." If anyone took the time to read about the essay contest on Sunpiper Press, I stated that I wanted to know what the next generation has to say about the world they are inheriting. I plan to take that book and spread it. My undergraduate degree was in political science and if you read any of the stuff that I've written for the press (under the Editor's corner), you will see that I'm trying to make a difference. The anthology is a plan to sponsor scholarships and I have been in several negotiations with different schools and organizations to do just that. These young people are entering the contest because they want to speak. Not all essays (mind you, ESSAYS ONLY, DAVE--THE ONES ENTERED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE CONTEST) will be able to make it. When they are chosen, I will then ask for rights to publish and get a contract to do so (remember, my background is in law). I know the laws and what needs to be done. I will attest and sign you an affidavit to this affect that NO ONE'S work will be used in print format without permission and contract for compensation--whether it be $20 or a copy of the book--they (or their parents, depending upon age) will sign the contract before their work is used.

3. For the life of me, I cannot find where I am stating that people have to have a copyright. I've searched through both sites and the only place I am aware of that I mention copyrighted work is in submissions for Sunpiper Press. In that sentence, I state that they should not send long novellas that are not copyrighted or protected and that Sunpiper Press does not want them to submit something in which they could possibly be paid. I do not recommend copyrights, except in the instance I explained to you about protecting a novel idea, but it is just an insurance policy--not a limitation of rights.

That being said, if I take the word "copyrighted" out of the submissions page at Sunpiper Press (NOT THE SUNPIPER LITERARY SITE) and just use the word "protected", I'll be OK.

Recap:
1. If I take the words "editing" off my services site.
2. Make sure I get contracts for each ESSAY that may POTENTIALLY be published in print.
3. Take the word copyrighted out of the Sunpiper Press submissions page, then the "Not Recommended" rating will be removed.

I'm not asking Preditors and Editors to ENDORSE me, just not judge me unless you KNOW ME.

As for my advice to writers, I'd like for you to visit Sunpiper Press' site and look under the Editor's Corner. My editorial for November were for people to be taken seriously. This is the type of advice I give.
www.sunpiperpress.com/rd3.html (http://www.sunpiperpress.com/rd3.html)

I'd really like to straighten this out Dave--without egos and name calling. As I said before, like you, I'm only trying to do something good.

Respectfully as always,
Robert Denson III

[robdee3]

And we were doing so well. Smoldering the fire; taking out the personal shots---and now, here is Victoria with her insults. Thanks, you've taken quite a different approach as everyone else.

As I stated before, I have never represented I know everything, however, that is why I hire people with the experience that do. "Robert Denson would like to be thought of more as an Executive Producer not a literary agent"---do you remember that statement or did you jump in at that last minute?

I'm glad you do what you do. I'm happy you are well at what you do. I'm happy your way works for you. But, your way doesn't work for everyone. You introduce elitism because you are stating that "you know the way and you know the only way and if you don't follow this road then you will fail". You introduce that aspect with the omnipotent statements.

I have not misrepresented anything that I do and what I'm about. I have told at least 5 people that said they had contacts in New York not to work with me. They don't need me, they are already in. The way you approach this situation, you make it sound as if all the GOOD writers have been seen and signed and no GOOD writers fall through the cracks---and that is not true.

Simon made the statement earlier that "Publishing was a business, not a cause." but I respectfully disagree. You see, a cause is what sells. Publishers are just the suppliers.

Again, rather than state truth, you state your opinion that "it won't work, he doesn't know what he's doing" as if you are omnipotent. Why does it piss people off that not everyone thinks like them? I haven't insulted you. I haven't suggested you don't know what you are doing. I'm not even arguing with your opinion---you are entitled. But just because you have an opinion does not mean you have all the answers.

Thank you Victoria,
Robert

[SKMartin]

It seems to me Victoria that you think that those of us who have signed with Robert are completely ignorant!

There are some things in this world that are more important than money, fame, and fortune. Not that I'd expect those of you avidly pursing exactly that to understand what I'm talking about! Giving someone what they may never be able to get, likely because of people like you, is priceless!

A chance for a senior in high school to put a little something extra on their college application (like winning an essay contest sponsored by Sunpiper Press), could quite possibly give them a little bit of an edge. I'm not saying that it will--but it might. So why not allow the opportunity?

I am not expecting miracles. Agents in New York can't even deliver that! If the attitude that you have, is a reflection of what is to be expected by those "reputable" in the publishing business--I'd prefer to deal with the little guy. I know that as a writer, I'll get more respect!

[DaveKuzminski]

Robert, I'll go by your numbered points.

1. Yes, that's what I'm stating.

2. If it's essays, then why would excerpts of novels be in the publication or are those ineligible for the anthology? I think we should discuss only this point. Maybe I'm just dense in understanding, but I think we're each looking at something different when we speak on this sticking point.

Contracts for the essays that are published is a definite plus or good thing. I don't have any criticism of that.

However, I've been asking about the clients' work that I understand is featured in the Sunpiper Press free publication and might also appear in the commercially-sold anthology. Now if the clients' excerpts are not appearing in the anthology, then part of this problem disappears. Sunpiper isn't making money on its clients when they're not.

If the non-clients' works are featured in the Sunpiper Press free publication and they are aware that it is for exposure only and they are given a contract beforehand paying them a copy of the commercially-sold anthology should they make it into that and accept your offer, then I really don't have a problem there. The non-clients are being compensated.

3. Yes, that's what I was pointing at. In fact, there's no need to state "protected," either. Copyright is now automatic according to US copyright laws. If you state protected, some folks might think you mean they should use a poor man's copyright which actually carries no weight in the US. Besides, copyright only protects the sequence of words, not the idea.

Let's see how this works between us. Okay?

[SimonSays]

The Webster's Dictionary definition of the word agent: a business representative (for an athlete or talent).

Your apparent disdain for the industry you are a business representative in: "nose-thumbing the literary community" "offended by the 'hierarchy” that existed in the halls of literature' makes me wonder how you are ever going to properly represent your clients in that industry.

Unless your clients are all like SKM who appears to be more interested in "being a part of something" and "giving someone what they may never be able to get" - in which case they don't really need actual literary repreresentation - but perhaps a cult leader would be appreciated....

....or maybe he/she is the someone and you are giving him/her something HE/SHE may never be able to get. Whatever would that be, as it does not appear to be access to Simon & Schuster, Random House, Bantam, Avon, etc.?

I don't mean to give you a hard time Rob, but you really do appear to be the pied piper of literature leading your clients away from actual publication towards some utopian world you envision where the "common writer" can have an outlet. What is a common writer anyway? Have you seen the bestseller list lately? The writers on that list are not exactly Dostoevsky. The subject matter is not high brow. What those writers have in common is that they are good writers, talented - masters of their craft. If your clients possess those same talents and abilities there is no reason they should not be published by the same houses and you as their agent have the responsiblity to get them there or at least try.

Please do define common writer - my curiosity has been piqued.

[SKMartin]

Simon, Simon, Simon! You just made me spit out my Kool-Aid with that cult comment!
I had only aimed to enlighten you. I see now that I have failed at that effort.

Everyone in here is so good at twisting what someone else says around and into something that is was never intended to be! I am only saying that students--most likely unable to land a contract while in high school, with the publishers you just named--are able to put a little something under their belt. Do you get it yet????

To be a part of something, which you deem derogatory, is human nature, my friend. You are a part of this forum--are you not???

[HConn]

I would personally prefer to have someone with a good heart and a REAL interest in ME and my dreams, than an agent with too many clients and not enough time to think twice about me.

Are those the options, then? Someone who cares but doesn't know what they're doing or an expert who doesn't care?

To me, that sounds like a rationalization for failure. Or for aiming really, really low.

Frankly, reading this thread reminds me of the adage No agent at all is better than a bad agent. And I don't see that Mr. Denson is a good or even mediocre agent.

For instance:

I’ll shout to the world, “MY BACKGROUND IS IN LAW AND MANAGEMENT, NOT PUBLISHING.” I’m not ashamed of that and I don’t claim otherwise
But later he says:

"I think regular literary agents look for good projects to represent; projects based on popular culture that are hot at the moment. That is how they generate revenue. Nevertheless, if your work doesn't fit their profile, they won't accept it. It's the way of the business."
If you don't know publishing, how do you know the criteria that successful literary agents pick their clients?

Frankly, Sunpiper looks like a waste of time. The site is full of warning signs, including:

Although they seldom result from poor writing, rejection letters discourage authors.
Rejections are seldom the result of poor writing?

Please.

So Mr. Denson isn't taking people's money. Great. And he has a website where people can post their work for free. Fab. But that doesn't mean he's going to do anyone any good. Unless all they want is to feel a part of something.

For anyone considering Sunpiper, or anywhere else that talks about "elites" and being an outsider, consider this: All the books you read and love that are published by big publishers were not put out because of connections or being a member of some elite. They were published because a writer wrote that book instead of writing crap.

If people want to be published and successful, they need to write a book the publishers will publish, one similar to the books they read and love. That book will create the so-called connections.

[CaoPaux]

Let's run a little test, shall we....

nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005540 (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005540.html#005540)

nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005555 (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005555.html#005555)

[SKMartin]

Is it safe to assume that everyone posting here is a successful, published author--with a high profile agent, nonetheless? The egos swarming these posts seem to support that assumption.

[SimonSays]

Students in high school do not need literary agents. Students in high school should be doing their homework and going to the mall. Most student's in high school do not have enough life experience or writing experience to write a book worthy of commercial publication. I'm sure there are a few that do, but the majority do not. I have no issue with Rob posting whatever he wants to post on his website.

We're talking about Rob's literary agency, not his website.

You are woefully misinformed if you think that all agents are heartless and have no time for their clients.

You are also quite foolish if you think that it is more important that an agent have a REAL interest in YOU and your dreams. What is important that your agent believes in you and your work and that he has the ability to get your work to publishers and then negotiate a deal for you. Agents are not your friends or your family they are your agent. An agency or publishing company is not your family they are businesses. If you are a serious about a writing career please remember that it is a career. As in business. As in professional. If you want to sit around singing Kumbayah - I suggest you give up the writing dreams and open a summer camp.

[HapiSofi]

Sorry, Robdee. You can huff and puff all you want, but you still have no idea what you're doing, and you're no use to your writers. Victoria's right; being an agent is a complex, demanding, highly skilled, and sometimes counter-intuitive job. The only way to learn how to do it is to work for another agent. This isn't the publishing industry being elitist or exclusive; that's just what it takes.

You haven't done your time. You're like a would-be doctor who scoffs when people try to explain that one really does have to go to medical school.

[HConn]

SK, you should go to bed and come back tomorrow in a less agitated state. You're going to use up all your exclamation points and question marks.

[SKMartin]

Again...the twisting of the words!

I don't need to justify my intentions or ambitions with you--and I won't.

Obviously students don't need agents. Never said they did. Just a leg up, maybe.

And take a look at the original post. It DID ask about Sunpiper Press, not the agency. You like to bite, before you bark! Don't ya, Simon?

My dream (I will share that with you since you need everything spelled out), is to become a published writer. (Traditionally, Simon, traditionally.)

If someone believes in my work, obviously they'll believe in me. Put 2 and 2 together, please. It takes too much effort to keep explaining everything to you.

Good night all. Did this too long already.

[SimonSays]

SKM -

You and your buddy Jesse were the ones who starting yapping about what a great AGENT Rob was. It was only after Jess touted Rob's efforts that I even posted anything - and that was to point out that agents don't do what Rob was doing - not because they're not motivated, but because there's no reason to.

Your say your dream is to be published traditionally and that you are not ignorant - and yet you have chosen an agent who appears to be incapable of getting you traditionally published - he doesn't know anything about the business and has NO contacts at any of the traditional houses. And based on his own words - which were on a link he himself provided - he seems to carry a certain amount of animosity toward the very people you want to publish you.

So one at the very least has to wonder if you are more ignorant than you believe yourself to be.

I must admit I'm curious about your experiences to date with getting published. PA author? Agent rejections? What could possibly have led you to believe that Rob was the best way to go?

[RSJSJ]

It's the end of the night, and hopefully the end of this post. But yes, I am another cult member and i'm chiming in. I have worked with Robert on several different projects/levels and I will say this: He has always been very straight forward and up front about who he is and what he does. I don't think this engaging conversation is a question of his character, just a question of his ability to do a job that some of you have deemed him incapeable of doing. Yes, he is new to the arena, but all of you have been 'new' on some level or another. Some people are text book, some people are hands on. Some of you need to get your hands on a text book and learn the difference between opinion and fact.

I do admire the fact that Mr. K is lending his opinion or 'suggestions' to Robert as to what he can do so that the error on P&E's site can be corrected. And he has done that and managed (quite easily I might add) to keep his integrity in tact, unlike some of you. However, it's evident that some of you may have been victimized by scam artists, and since you have been fortunate enough to move past that experience, you're on some crusade to label Sunpiper and probably other agencies incompetent because they don't fit your standards, without even being able to prove it. Just jumping on those high horses and looking down on Sunpiper because of your 'opinions', not facts. If it is your intention to assist, help, warn (you pick) other authors, then you should base the information you provide on fact, not on opinion. I know that's difficult for some of you, but give it a try. You might even find out you've been wrong about a lot of other things, too.

Funny thing is, there are quite a few agents/agencies who butter your bread and abide by the criteria you've set forth, as far as what should and should not be mentioned in the description of their services. They're probably the main ones who are guilty of doing the things you oppose. They just omit it from their verbage which allows them to receive a thumbs up! And how do you 'eventually' find out about these people being scam artists? Probably because someone who has had a terrible experience with them came forth and screamed it from the rooftops. And showed you proof.

The writers who are contracted with Sunpiper have come forth and told you everything that Robert has done to help them move forward. BUT STILL, negative things coming from people who have not even worked with him or heard of any wrongdoings from writers who have worked with him. Go figure.

I wholeheartedly believe in what he is doing. He's providing a forum for writers to share their voice. He's encouraging youth to utilize their voices through their writing talents. He's providing a chance to authors who may be overlooked because they're either NOT, yet, published or well-known authors. He is assisting writers in getting their work published. He is making these investments in the writers because he believes in them as writers and he believes in their work. Is he a 'seasoned' agent? No, nor has he claimed to be. But he will be.

[HConn]

Some of you need to get your hands on a text book and learn the difference between opinion and fact.

Good idea. After that, let's all get a dictionary and learn the difference between opinion and informed opinion.

What Mr. Denson is suggesting is nothing new. Why do you think he was so quickly slapped with a "Not recommended?" Because everything he does is also done by scammers.

The fact that he doesn't charge speaks to his intentions, but not his effectiveness. The things scammers do aren't just bad because they charge money when they shouldn't--they also don't work.

Mr. Denson is not even the first honest person to try their hand at jumping in to literary agency. Did you follow the links that CAO posted and read every comment? Here are some more: Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html) and On the getting of agents. (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)

Both are long, but you should read them all the way through. They're a worthy investment.

In truth, none of Mr. Denson's ideas seem new to me, and I'm nobody. But hey, if I'm nobody, why should you believe what I say?

How about this: I believe in you and I believe in your work. There. Now are you ready to believe whatever I say, no matter who I am or how tenuous my connection to publishing? It seems to have worked for Mr. Denson.

[robdee3]

Thank you Dave. I will discuss this matter with you directly instead of on a forum. All and all, this is getting ridiculously out of hand. HapiSofi, Simon, HConn, Victoria, you are all reading parts of what stated and not applying the whole. The part about "thumbing my nose at the literary market" was at the beginning of the editorial and that is all you refer to---you didn't even read or mention the rest.

I've been referred to as a cult leader and a pied piper. You all meant that as an insult, however, you guys should remember--selling is about being able to reach a market. If I were a pied piper or cult leader, then that would mean I was reaching an audience--wouldn't it?

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you guys anymore. You are condemning a new idea even before most of the actions have been put into place. You are like Barney Fiffe trying to "nip my new idea in the bud". It seems that what offends you the most is that, I'm not following your rules and people are still supporting what I'm trying to do.

I tell you what. Keep this thread, tuck it away and pull it out in five years. If you all are the prophets of the industry, predicting success and failure, you can send this to me, dance with glee and say "I told you so!" However, what you seem really to be afraid of is that you may pull it out in five years and find you might have to eat a little crow.

Whether you guys know it or not, you've served a great purpose. I have broken down my ideas and made declarations that I will HAVE to follow. The first time I were to break one, I'm sure you would be right there to rub it in my face. But I'm not afraid to stand behind anything I stated here.

Bottom line is, Robert is trying a different route and it scares you to death that he might succeed. I will succeed because I have an audience. Remember folks, its about marketing!!!!

When I began my Preschool business, I knew (and still know) nothing about childcare--and you know what? In the 4 years it has been in existence, I've been in the building about 6 times total when the place was actually open. I have people I trust to run it. They are all very qualified and all I do is make sure it continues to grow. We were operating in the black before year two of the business. When I began my real estate development, I knew nothing about that either--but again, it has flourished and I luckily NEVER lost any money in that business--not even in the first year. And here is why I like to hear you nay sayers---there were many screaming at me then that I didn't know what I was doing and I was wasting time and money---but now, they dine upon crow every day and I don't giggle and point.

For every success, there are people that attempt to stand in the way of that success. You have chosen your side and I have chosen mine. May he/she with the best interest of writers in mind succeed---because, unless I'm mistaken, cultivating new writers is what we ALL HERE in this forum are about--isn't it?

Thank you for your name calling, accusations and on seldom occasions, constructive advice. I will leave this post by offering what none of you are willing to offer me---I wish you all success and I hope you continue to do well at what you do.

Respectfully,
Robert Denson III
Sunpiper Literary

[robdee3]

And again, Vicki, you take out one statement and build on it. You did not want to put in the part about it being successful and operating in the black the first year it was opened--do you?

WOW! This demonstrates now narrow your vision is. You see only what you want to see. WOW is truly the word.

You really knocked that one out of the park for me. Thanks.

[HConn]

message deleted. Why bother?

[Whachawant]

Obviously, Robert, you must have enough business sense to make almost any project succeed, no matter what it is. I commend you on your successful businesses and hope this one works out for you. You obviously have a talent that certain authors or agents don't have.
I might have missed a point, or misunderstood one, but are you planning on hiring people to be agents to work at your company for your authors?

By the way your other businesses are going, that is the just of what I'm getting and the others are not.

[JohannaJ7]

My dream (I will share that with you since you need everything spelled out), is to become a published writer. (Traditionally, Simon, traditionally.)
And you think the best way to achieve that is by letting a person with no connections of experience in this business represent you?

If someone believes in my work, obviously they'll believe in me. Put 2 and 2 together, please. It takes too much effort to keep explaining everything to you.
While it might make you feel all warm and fuzzy to hear someone say they believe in your work, it's not going to get you a contract with a publisher.

What is your plan here? Mr. Denson doesn't seem to have any connections, so what exactly does he do for you that you can't do for yourself? Is he simply there to hold your hand as you submit to publishers? Don't you have parents and/or friends to do that for you?

Bottom line is, Robert is trying a different route and it scares you to death that he might succeed. I will succeed because I have an audience. Remember folks, its about marketing!!!!
Are you talking about yourself or are you getting your sockpuppet-posts mixed up? :\

Why would people here be scared of you succeeding? All they're trying to do is help writers, even though a lot of writers don't like being told that they might be getting scammed or that they might be going about things the wrong way.

What are we supposed to think about you when you come in here and act exactly like so many scammers have before you? You're defensive, you snipe, you come with a throng of loyal clients who are also very defensive and ill-mannered.

Do you do the professional thing tell your writers to back off and let you handle something that concerns you and your business and not their work? No. You let them get their hands dirty dealing with your problems. And then, when people who are respected by writers, publishers and editors alike question your business because of its similarity to scammers, you lash out at them and start accusing them. Is that in the best interest of your business and the writers you represent? This place does not exists to coddle you, it exists to help writers avoid people that might hurt them or or their careers. If you want to be respected as a professional it is up to you to prove yourself -- and not just to places like P&E, but to the entire business. Good luck.

[robdee3]

(This message was left blank)

[lizziepants]

First off, let me say, I have no previous knowledge of Sunpiper. I've noticed a coincidence however of the pro-Sunpiper posts (by newbies) and the language structure of Mr. Denson's. I find that very interesting.

[robdee3]

JohannaJ7,
As I said before, this has all got ridiculously out of hand. I agree with you. These people are upset because I have been trying to help them and you guys are slamming me as a scammer.

Here is what I'm saying to you Johanna--no ifs, ands or buts--and I have spoken this before. You all suspect me as a scammer because YOU DON'T KNOW ME AND YOU HAVE NOT WORKED WITH ME. All I have asked is that you interact with me first, see what I do, see how I treat you, then make your opinion about me. Don't label me unless you research me.

I have had authors approach me, hear my approach and say "No, that's not for me." I say, "Hey, that's cool. Keep the stuff I've given you and I wish you success." I don't have a problem with people not wanting to walk in the direction I am going. But I don't call them incompetent because they don't see what I see. It's not meant for them.

Why can't you guys give me the same benefit of the doubt? Why can't you just say, "Robert, I don't UNDERSTAND what you are trying to do and I don't want to take a part. Just keep doing good and I hope you are successful for the people you work with."?

Instead, you have to insult me. How is that professional? I haven't told any one on this board they were wrong or stupid. All I have said is that I have a different vision. These people have been insulting me--not me insulting them. I have been professional Johanna. I have not told Simon, Victoria, HConn or anyone else that their approach was wrong---I've mostly agreed with them. I just choose to go a different route than them. I'm not the one slinging insults of incompetence. I'm not the one being disrespectful.

I would like for this all to end. It is no more about the situation, it is all turning petty and beneath us all. But find one spot on this thread, Johanna, where I have told anyone they were wrong. You won't be able to. You will only see that I respectfully disagree.

Respectfully,
Robert Denson

[DaveKuzminski]

In a previous discourse between Robert and I, I stated that I didn't mind if he shared our discussion with his writers. Some of the individuals posting here now are from among those writers. I believe they have a stake in the outcome and should be heard even if they don't have the same level of experience in dealing with the publishing industry as others. Of course, I also think that they and others should give more thought to what they state since these kinds of discussions can only too easily become inflamed.

After all, one of the main purposes of this forum is to share knowledge, especially since we all have different experiences and skills to bring into the discussion, and work out solutions to problems.

[robdee3]

Amen Dave.

[JohannaJ7]

Here is what I'm saying to you Johanna--no ifs, ands or buts--and I have spoken this before. You all suspect me as a scammer because YOU DON'T KNOW ME AND YOU HAVE NOT WORKED WITH ME. All I have asked is that you interact with me first, see what I do, see how I treat you, then make your opinion about me. Don't label me unless you research me.
I don't think you're a scammer, Rob. I think you're a bit too inexperienced to be doing what you're doing, but for all I know you've surrounded yourself with brilliant people who will make up for your lack of experience in this field.

Instead, you have to insult me. How is that professional? I haven't told any one on this board they were wrong or stupid. All I have said is that I have a different vision. These people have been insulting me--not me insulting them. I have been professional Johanna. I have not told Simon, Victoria, HConn or anyone else that their approach was wrong---I've mostly agreed with them. I just choose to go a different route than them. I'm not the one slinging insults of incompetence. I'm not the one being disrespectful.
How have I insulted you? I'm not praising you, but that's not exactly an insult. You've got a lot of writers trusting you, so we're just trying to make sure you treat them right.

And I would very much like it if you could point out where people have been insulting you, because I can't find it.

[robdee3]

Johanna,

You say that I am too inexperienced in the business to be doing what I am doing. But I am not inexperienced in taking something good and making it successful. Did you look at the posts of the people that I pay to work with me? FAR, FAR OUTWEIGH MY EXPERIENCE IN THE LITERARY INDUSTRY.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, JUST USING A DIFFERENT ROUTE. String back and see my statement about "Executive Producer rather than Literary Agent".

As for insults, I do not consider being compared to a 'cult leader', 'pied piper' or noted to have 'dishonest practices' as being favorable.

Acting off of my legal background, I ask you, "Have you ever prepared a case for litigation?" The whole point in doing so is to market your client and make sure a jury finds them favorable. Marketing is all about the power of persuasion--and I have MUCH experience in that.

[SimonSays]

Rob - I did not call you a cult leader I said that the kinds of things that SKM held up as important to him/her are not the types of things one gets from literary representation - however, they are the kinds of things one gets from being in a cult.

Yes I did call you the pied piper - because I think you are leading people, with your sales abilities, AWAY from the path that will lead to traditional commercial publication and towards something that will not.

As for your vision of yourself as an executive producer. Novelists don't need executive producers. Writers need to write. And after they write they need agents and publishers. Producers in film - and that is my writing background, so I know of where I speak - oversee all elements of creating a film. There is a lot of minutae involved in producing a film, from development to production through post production - everything from costume design to music clearance. And producers bring on hundreds of specialists in each and every area to complete each task. But writing and publishing a novel require no such tasks - all they require is the ability and talent of the writer, and the agent's ability to get the work to publishers. There is no place for an executive producer in a writing career.

You are not creating some new paradigm that will revolutionize literary representation as we know it. And you still have not defined the phrase "common writer" without clarification I tend to lean toward "mediocre, not good enough to be published but I will find a way to get them published anyway because bad writers deserve publication too" If I am wrong, please clarify.

I have never called you a scammer, I believe you are sincere and passionate about your mission. I see that you have removed the misrepresentative phrase from your website, I respect you for that.

But the purpose of this particular board is to give people researching agents practical and useful information which will help them make an informed decision.

And the fact is - if someone is seeking an agent with a goal of say, getting published by a major house or even a solid independent - then they should be seeking representation by an experienced agent who has publishing industry experience, a track record of sales, and contacts in the business. You bring none of that to the table and no amount of passion will bring it to the table.

[Dhewco]

Hiya Mrs. Strauss,


How does a person gets a track record of success if no one will take a chance on them? Even Donald Maas had that first sale. I'm sure that before that he was a newbie, didn't have a record.

I'm sure the Sunpiper guy needs to be more knowledgeable. I know you're right about that, but if he's relatively new...he'll not have a record of anything.

Like the real estate agent who doesn't have a record before his first sale.

David

[James D Macdonald]

I'm not Victoria, but perhaps I can help.

Agents usually get their experience by being junior agents/assistant agents in a larger agency. They develop their own lists there, under the head of the agency.

Then, one day, they depart, setting up their own shops. Some of the authors they've worked with over the preceding years, and whose books they've sold, go with them based on their personal relationships. On the day the "new agents" hang out their shingle they have those authors and those books as a track record. Eventually, their agencies grow (if they're successful), and they take on junior agents to help handle the load. Those junior agents develop their own stables of authors and, one day....

Agents really do learn their craft by a kind of "apprenticeship" system. Yes, there are other paths, but that's the most common.

One thing you must understand is that over at publishing houses you'll find stuff called "agented slush." That's the stuff that comes from agents no one's ever heard of. It can sit in those slush piles for a long, long time.

I know this has been recommended before, up above, but may I add my voice in suggesting that everyone read On the getting of agents (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)?

[SimonSays]

Actually Dhew, Mr. Maass started out working as a Jr. Editor at Dell publishing. He had years of publishing experience before he took on his first client - let alone made his first sale.

He worked at another agency to learn the ropes. He built his contacts through in part through the other agents at the firm.

So by the time he started his own agency he knew every aspect of the business, had clients, sales and contacts.

Most agents - and I would guess pretty much all agents at good agencies - do not just on a whim decide they want to be an agent. They spend years learning about the business either through working at publishing co's. or agencies. Many agents start out as assistants to agents - and learn about the business and make contacts that way.

While it's true that every agent starts with no sales, they should at least start with industry experience, contacts and knowledge. And why any writer would want one that didn't, defies all common logic.

And as for your realtor analogy... Real Estate agents need to be licensed which requires that they pass a test - which requires that they learn many aspects of the business i.e. what their responsiblities are, certain laws, etc. So again, they have knowledge even if they lack experience.

Do you understand the difference Dhew? Would you hire a mechanic who had never looked under the hood of car before?

[JohannaJ7]

All right then. :) Which publishers are you planning to submit your writers' work to? Which editors do you and/or your employees have access to, or will you be slushing it all the way? Because as long as you can, and will, offer your writers access to the people and publishers they can't get to, I don't really have a problem with you.

As for those insults, they all came from SimonSays, and that's just how he talks. It hardly gives you a reason to be rude to everyone, does it?

Now, I'd love it if you could explain some things about Sunpiper Press to me. :)

In your submissions section it says:

"Second, we’d like poetry, short stories and novellas. DO NOT send novellas for online publishing that have not been copyrighted. Though the copyright laws protect you, we do not want to give away work that should be sold. Sunpiper Press is about exposure to your work—not to have your work stolen."

What exactly does that mean? I mean, by publishing those stories online you'll be PUBLISHING them -- or are you just going to publish excerpts? How much do you pay for these stories? After you've published them they'll be classified as a re-print if the writer wants to sell it to someone else, so why would the writer have to worry about it being stolen and submitted to a paying market? Who would steal a reprint? Even if it is stolen (I have seen online stories being stolen, or "borrowed without permission", and put on other sites), it won't be hard to prove that your writer is the original writer. Are you saying that other writers would steal the stories, or are you suggesting that print or web magazines would steal the stories? And who bothers to copyright shortstories anyway?

[robdee3]

Just for the record, Simon, I am not arguing with anything that you have said. I would LOVE to have an inside track to major publishing houses in New York, but at this time, I don’t have that luxury—that doesn’t mean I should tuck my head and say “I’ll never have a shot.”

When I speak of “common writers” I refer to writers that don’t have contacts but still do good work. No, Simon and Schuster and Bantam are not knocking down their doors because they already have a full plate and have plenty to work with---does that mean those authors don’t need to be heard. What is to happen to these people? Do you care?

Bantam and Viking might not give a crap about the potential marketing audience I will have---but smaller presses will---then it is about selling books. When you talk about publishing is a business, you’ve got to know they like to see numbers.

Let’s take the book “Cold Mountain” by Charles Frazier for instance. It was turned down by many houses, so its first edition was printed by Atlantic Monthly. People loved it so much, it was later picked up by a bigger publisher and made into a movie. I submit to you that the authors Steven Manchester, Jesse F. Gump and J. Conrad Guest, though they have not enjoyed the success as other writers, are just as good, if not better, than writers like Charles Frazier and Nicholas Sparks. They tried your method and it didn’t work for them—now they are trying a different route. I wish you could read the novel, “The Rockin’ Chair” by Steven Manchester. I will grant you that that novel SHOULD be in the hands of an agent with great credentials and vision---but no one has time to read it because they have all they want. What are these writers supposed to do?

Simon, I’m happy to give young writers, new writers and yes high school students a chance to write and have their work seen across the world at SUNPIPER PRESS. I do not ask to represent these people—it is just a place for them to place their work for people to see. Period. I’m not trying to resell their work without their permission. The whole purpose for SUNPIPER PRESS is to get people to interact and if they have something to say, have a platform to say it.

It was meant for people, such as yourself, to let younger writers know more about the business. I invite anyone that wants to educate emerging writers to submit to Sunpiper Press and let my readers read it.

One last situation, and I’m going to leave this whole thing alone, is the case of J. Conrad Guest and him being disgruntled with his POD publisher. He contributed an article that stated that POD normally devalues and author’s work and that “anyone with a credit card could get published”. I printed that article and it caused an uproar. Karen Syed of Echelon Press was fit to be tied when she read the article and wanted to rebut what was said. I WELCOMED IT and she wrote and article for the next issue presenting POD’s side of the story. Which one was correct? I don’t know. But what I do know is that people got to hear both sides of the issue—and I let them make their one decision. The whole Sunpiper Press forum is meant for that kind of interaction. If you want to educate them, talk to them directly instead of trying to trash me for what I’m trying to do.

Please people, investigate what I do. Talk to people that work with me. HELP THOSE that need help. Help me help them if you are concerned with my methods—but don’t talk bad about me because I’m trying a different route. I am intentionally not trying to go the same route that you took. If the opportunity comes along, however, I’ll embrace it, but I’m not going to sit around and hope people come knocking. If I have something that I think is good, I’m going to take it straight to the people—let them read it, and that author WILL get exposure and he/she will get recognition which may/may not open doors for them in the future. I’m at least moving for them rather than just sitting and hoping.

Best wishes to you all.

[robdee3]

As for my very last post here, JohannaJ, the answer was in the statement you copied.
"we do not want to give away work that should be sold"
This means if you have a story you are submitting to a paying publication, don't send it to us.
As for novel excerpts, those don't count because they are already protected.
As for being rude, I don't think I've been rude to anyone. I've only stated my opinion and my plans. I have made no derogatory remarks about anyone and the way they pursue their work.

I think I agree with HConn---why bother?

You guys don't want to hear me, you just want to attack me. Feel free--talk about me. I guarantee there will be more people speaking of me in a positive light than in a negative.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL and I really do (whether you believe it or not) appreciate you all picking me apart. Questioning makes a strong person that much stronger.

Respectfully,
Robert

[DaveKuzminski]

Normally, I don't make public announcements of this sort, but Sunpiper and P&E have resolved this discussion to our mutual satisfaction.

[vstrauss]

>>Let’s take the book “Cold Mountain” by Charles Frazier for instance. It was turned down by many houses, so its first edition was printed by Atlantic Monthly. People loved it so much, it was later picked up by a bigger publisher<<

Atlantic Monthly Press, that is, an imprint of Grove Atlantic, the respected independent publisher that was this book's first--and only--publisher (in hardcover, at least--the paperback edition was brought out by Vintage).

- Victoria

[Chamran]

On the subject of new to the site:
I am new to the writing profession and to this site. I looked often, (tho not a member) to gain insight, knowledge and to note agents that I may not want to submit to. I was already a member before the Sunpiper thing, just before. I didn't join on Sunpiper's behalf but I did ask about Sunpiper and did speak up for Sunpiper. I am new, Sunpiper is new and we both have to learn, sometimes by making mistakes.

[James D Macdonald]

The wealthiest author in the world (and we all know who that is) was first published by a small publisher.
If we're talking about J. K. Rowling, she was first (and is still) published by Bloomsbury, which is the largest British-owned publisher in the world.

[absolutewrite]

I'm getting kind of smirky about all the "think outside the box" and "elitism" and "outsiders" stuff... is it just me, or have the regulars noticed that every fringe and scam company uses this wording when defending themselves?

Rob, not in any way suggesting you're a scammer. But like all of the experienced authors on this board, I am suggesting that you don't have the experience necessary to help these writers in any meaningful way.

I don't like to see writers pin their hopes on a company just because "they believe in me!" What you are doing is NOT new and nowhere near as revolutionary as you seem to think. It's been tried before many times, and the reason it still "seems" revolutionary is that it's never worked.

If your writers' goals are simply to see their work posted on a website or in an anthology, great-- you've done that. If they seek commercial success and real book sales, you're doing them a disservice.

I've thought about becoming an agent. Maybe I'll do it one day. But I'm not experienced enough for it yet. I've written only 14 books... the latest for McGraw-Hill and Simon & Schuster. I have 2 agents and a manager. I've worked with publicists, I've studied publishing contracts and learned what to negotiate, I've made connections at most of the major publishing houses... and I'm STILL not experienced enough to do right by my would-be clients.

Being a kamikaze is fine, but there's the adage "You must first know the rules before you break them." I consider that a wise adage. Learn all about publishing. THEN figure out what you can do that'll be better and more effective.

[HapiSofi]

Jenna, I'd say somebody agrees with you (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005555.html). (It's at the bottom of the piece.)

[SimonSays]

Rob:

"When I speak of “common writers” I refer to writers that don’t have contacts but still do good work. No, Simon and Schuster and Bantam are not knocking down their doors because they already have a full plate and have plenty to work with---does that mean those authors don’t need to be heard. What is to happen to these people? Do you care?"


99.9999999% of all writers are "common" by your definition until they get published. Very few have great uncles or frat brothers who work at Simon & Schuster or Bantam. As I pointed out earlier, publishing is a push industry - which means you need to push the door open at many houses - they aren't coming looking for you. Ironically, this is where something called an agent comes in. Because a good agent is the key that unlocks the doors at publishing houses big and small. You appear to have no keys and you appear to be peretuating the myth that new writers can't get published at most houses. Good, new writers can and do get published all the time. Good new writers do get representation if they don't give up after the 40th query rejection.

And you also are somewhat melodramatic with your "what is to happen to these people?" The fact is only a fraction of those with a passion for writing are good enough at it to warrant publication. If the joy doesn't come from the writing itself - if you need to be heard in order to feel validated, well there is a problem there.

Sunpiper press seems to give those who "need to be a heard" a place to go. Sunpiper Literary Agency on the other hand leads those who want to be published for real absolutely nowhere.

[HConn]

I would LOVE to have an inside track to major publishing houses in New York, but at this time, I don’t have that luxury—that doesn’t mean I should tuck my head and say “I’ll never have a shot.”

Actually, it means you shouldn't be sitting on other peoples' books while you try to agent them. You can't be a useful agent without those contacts; can't you understand that?

If you want to help writers, why don't you start a genuine small press? Not a free online magazine, which anyone could do, and not an agency which you aren't qualified to do. Why not be a small publisher?

Please people, investigate what I do.

Mr. Denson, what you are doing is not all that new or mysterious. It may seem that way to you, but it just isn't. That's why so many people are convinced it isn't helpful--it's been tried so many times that it's become a common mistake for writers to make.

Did you follow the "On the Getting of Agents" link that James M and I posted? You should. You seem to fall under the category of "gormless."

I really encourage you to read the entry and the comments too. If you have questions, you can ask them in the comments section or in the latest Open Thread. I hope you will be able to really hear the answers when they come from them.

HELP THOSE that need help.

That's what's happening in this thread.

Help me help them if you are concerned with my methods—but don’t talk bad about me because I’m trying a different route. I am intentionally not trying to go the same route that you took.

Your route isn't new.

But if you want help--really, honestly want to help writers, I want to expand on what I said upthread.

Start a small press. An online magazine is nothing special--it's open to anyone with a willingness to read slush and some hosting space.

Open a real press and print these books yourself. Hire an editor who lives near you with real publishing experience. Find out what distributers will need from you to carry your books. Then publish them as a small press.

Your marketing skills will be useful to an actual published book in ways that they wouldn't be to an upublished manuscript.

Want more advice? A local (to me) small press came out with a book about Breakfast in Seattle--all the restaurants, how much they cost, what they served, etc. Each restaurant had its own page.

I love to go out for breakfast, and I have a copy around the house somewhere. But that book was *very* successful for the publisher. They were in every bookstore and in little display racks at some of the restaurants. That little book made enough money to pay for a whole line of smaller books.

If you really want to help your authors and believe in them, don't get their works into the agented slush pile. Publish them yourself.
http://money.cnn.com/2000/05/03/investing/q_opentrade/penny.gifhttp://money.cnn.com/2000/05/03/investing/q_opentrade/penny.gif

[CaoPaux]

"we do not want to give away work that should be sold"

This means if you have a story you are submitting to a paying publication, don't send it to us.

Do you mean "no simultaneous submissions"? If so, it would boost your credibility to use industry-standard terms.

[HapiSofi]

HConn, if he goes to Making Light he should post his comments in the agenting thread. He'll either get lost in the current Open Thread, or he'll get shirty with the locals and wind up being declared an inflatable beach toy by the resident otter population.

[HConn]

Hapi, you're right, but they've been having trouble with comment spam over there, I was didn't want Mr. Denson to find the thread closed to comments and not know where to post a response.

But the latest open thread is a last resort.

[Vernon]

Sunpiper literary has quietly announced that they are moving away from literary representation to go towards publishing with their sister company, Sunpiper Press. This is not reflected on their web sites at all and places such as Preditors and Editors have not yet found out. Thought you guys ought to know - perhaps it is best to stay away from both sites

[DaveKuzminski]

Sunpiper literary has quietly announced that they are moving away from literary representation to go towards publishing with their sister company, Sunpiper Press. This is not reflected on their web sites at all and places such as Preditors and Editors have not yet found out. Thought you guys ought to know - perhaps it is best to stay away from both sites

Thanks, this is useful info that will reflect in their rating.

[IWrite]

Sunpiper literary has quietly announced that they are moving away from literary representation to go towards publishing with their sister company, Sunpiper Press.


Well considering the guy knew absolutely nothing about the publishing world and had absolutely no contacts in that world - this is a good thing.

[CaoPaux]

The original site (Sunpiper Literary): http://www.sunpiperpress.com/

Sunpiper Media Publishing / Sunpiper Press http://www.sunpipermedia.com/

[CaoPaux]

www.sunpiperpress.com is gone, www.sunpipermedia.com is now just an Amazon store, with nothing new since 2008, and the main Sunpiper Media Publishing site www.sunpiper.com is gone also.