Have the Rules Changed?

naimas · Jul 16, 2007

I went into Border's and looked at the Middle Grade (they call it independent reader) section. If you look at internet sites you will hear that publishers are looking for manuscripts that are up to 100-150 pages long, but a look at many of the books there showed me books that had 300 plus pages and several had over 700 pages and it wasn't Harry Potter.

1) Have publishers for Middle Grade Fiction changed their accepted manuscript lengths? I ask this because a book that is 150 pages long looks too thin and cheap compared to a flashy, hardcover novel sized Middle Grade book. I don't want a manuscript rejected because I followed the 150 page manuscript norm.

2) I was also told that a Middle Grade Novel should have no more than 10 percent description. Yet, again, opening up the vast majority of worthwhile looking Middle Grade Novels I saw entire pages of description. In fact I saw more words than I do on many adult novels. I am trying to keep description to a minimum and tell the story through dialogue and action but I am wondering if the rules have changed for this as well.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 16, 2007

Rules

You just have to check publisher's guidelines and follow them.

naimas · Jul 16, 2007

I checked several and they dont post guidelines because they only accept from agents. So I am wondering about what the general rule is now. I was all happy happy joy joy to write my novel at 200 pages and then I saw it would look like a VW Bug dollar display title if sandwiched inbetween the monster sized fantasy titles.

stormie · Jul 16, 2007

Basically, word count for MGs is between 30,000 and 40,000 words, give or take. If the story needs to be told in 60,000 words, and it's intriguing, don't sweat it. If it's 25,000 words, that could be okay, too. (Don't worry about amount of pages in your ms. Number of words is what matters.) If the editor loves it, they'll tell you to crop it or add to it, develop the character more (or not), add a scene or drop it.... You get the picture, right?

And what's hot this year might not be hot next year. No one can predict, just as every editor also has their own opinion on what they like, what will sell, etc.

The rules haven't changed. Write the story. Polish it. Make sure it hooks the reader from beginning to end.

Toothpaste · Jul 16, 2007

I am totally with Stormie. My book was sold at 87 000 words, and now it is 80 000. That's like double the typical MG, but no one seems to mind, in fact they are making the book appear longer in the UK by making the book physically shorter height wise so it has to be more pages.

Write the story you want to write.

naimas · Jul 16, 2007

Thanks for the quick and informative responses. That's good news about writing the story that I want.

I am still wondering though about the length of description in a book. Should it still be only about ten percent? There are several battle sequences and chase scenes. I know those are action scenes. I am just wondering about the level of description other than in action scenes.

naimas · Jul 16, 2007

Toothpaste,

I visited your sites. Your book looks magical. What a wonderful job they did publishing it. It certainly stood its own next to HP.

Toothpaste · Jul 16, 2007

To be honest I personally never thought in terms of "a middle grade typically has 10% description, needs to be so and so long, and introduces at least one purple snarfdoodle". The best thing to do, and this is the most annoying advice ever (aside from the "just write the book") is read what else is out there. See what other people are doing. Also read the classic kids' books. But in the end, dude, it's your story, write it how you want to.

(and thank you so much for the compliment btw, it's very lovely of you. The cover you were looking at is the UK one, the American/Canadian one is quite different, and if I may use your term, rather magical as well [I feel I can say such things about the aesthetic of the book as I had almost no input into it. I can admire it like anyone else really, and I do, because all my publishers have been just so amazing with Alex, I feel very lucky])

reenkam · Jul 16, 2007

I don't write MG or even read it so much, but I'd say the rules have definitely changed. Most books coming out in "children's" are at the higher end of the suggested word count scale, I'm pretty sure. I know this is true for YA, at least. 40,000 word books haven't been doing so well, as far as I've seen. When it costs the same amount as the 50 or 60k one, people go for the bigger. There are, of course, huge exceptions to that, but in general I'd say that you don't really have to worry so much about word count anymore.

That being said, a 120k MG book has probably no chance of selling...but, as Adrienne's pointed out, her book (which looks amazing and I plan to pre-order in the next day or two) is 80k and getting very good reviews.

I think a lot of people assume that kids won't read stories because they don't like it in school. But, truthfully, kids don't like reading in school because it's for school. If it's a good book, they'll read it regardless of the length. And I think there are agents and publishers that know this, so write on!

ghost · Jul 17, 2007

Actually the rules haven't changed. I'm in the process of getting my MG published. My first novel was turned down by word count alone but I've been told to hold onto it until I have established myself first.
The long, lengthly novels you're seeing are by writers who usually have written other books first. Most publishing companies (and I'm dealing with UK publishers here) are wanting shorter MG fantasty for first time writers.
As for ten percent descritiption, the best advise I ever got was to go through my own book. There should be an even amount of dialogue and descritpion. If you've got too much of one or the other, you've got a problem.

MsJudy · Jul 17, 2007

Speaking also as an elementary school teacher, MG is now a HUGE range. Kids bounce from Spiderwick and Junie B. Jones (short, fast, funny) to Eragon--and you can't get much more dense than Paolini! But I doubt Eragon would have been picked up by a publisher if it hadn't proven itself--so for those of us getting started, tightly paced is probably better.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 18, 2007

MG

naimas said:
Thanks for the quick and informative responses. That's good news about writing the story that I want.

I am still wondering though about the length of description in a book. Should it still be only about ten percent? There are several battle sequences and chase scenes. I know those are action scenes. I am just wondering about the level of description other than in action scenes.

I write MG, have been for a lot of years, and I've never heard a rule about 10% description. You can't write a good book to this kind of formula.

naimas · Jul 18, 2007

THANK YOU!!!

I have tried to do away with pointless description and have avoided telling such extras as explaining the bloodline of the characters or wars in the past, or talking about the early days of the village I use as a setting. I resisted adding a lot of hints as to future developments in possible sequels. But I was finding that trying to get description down to ten percent was hard. I AM finding it easy to hide description in action or movement. Like I will describe a castle interior as a character walks or has some event happen inside instead of just waxing on about the castle itself. It quickens the pace and keeps things moving.

Pamster · Jul 22, 2007

I thought middle grade fiction was supposed to be about 20K, if it's meant to be double I think I better put book one and book two into one story and that will make my middle grade reader 40K. I am glad you posted this naimas!

I was under the impression that it was 20K for Middle grade readers.

Shady Lane · Jul 22, 2007

The rules never change.

People just get balls enough to ignore them.

Toothpaste · Jul 23, 2007

Nicely put.

johnzakour · Jul 23, 2007

Actually, if enough people do consistently break the rules the rules do tend to change to match the buying publics views. What's revolutionary or non-conformist today can become the norm tomorrow if enough people accept it.

Shady Lane · Jul 23, 2007

It's not about people accepting it, though, have you noticed? It's about the publishing world accepting it, and that seems to come a lot slower than acceptance from the general public.

Sometimes it's like ghosts are putting those books on the shelves.

johnzakour · Jul 23, 2007

Shady Lane said:
It's not about people accepting it, though, have you noticed? It's about the publishing world accepting it, and that seems to come a lot slower than acceptance from the general public.

Sometimes it's like ghosts are putting those books on the shelves.

See but the thing is the publishing world is made up people. (I know it doesn't seem that way sometimes but all these publishers and book buyers really are people. I meet them at conventions all the time.)

The rules do change, maybe not as fast as some of us would like but they do change.

For instance, now other media like TV and Internet plays a far great role in publishing than it did even 10 years ago. I've written Rugrats, Jimmy Neutron and Fairly Odd Parents, young reader stories. When my I was younger reader there was no such thing as Nick or Cartoon Network, no less entire lines of books based on shows from networks that target young viewers.

Also you can't tell me Harry Potter hasn't changed the rules for YA? During the earlier 90s I had a heck of a time selling YA Fantasy and SF. Now I have three books coming in 2008 and I can't write fast enough to keep up the requests I get from publishers wanting YA SF and F. Sure, I'm a better writer than I was in 90s but not that much better.

The market changes and therefore so do the rules.

naimas · Jul 23, 2007

johnzakour said:
Now I have three books coming in 2008 and I can't write fast enough to keep up the requests I get from publishers wanting YA SF and F.

If there is anything I can do to help relieve your burden just let me know.

I have written 100 pages in the last five days and I am having the first part of the book edited.

Shady Lane · Jul 23, 2007

johnzakour said:
See but the thing is the publishing world is made up people. (I know it doesn't seem that way sometimes but all these publishers and book buyers really are people. I meet them at conventions all the time.)

The rules do change, maybe not as fast as some of us would like but they do change.

For instance, now other media like TV and Internet plays a far great role in publishing than it did even 10 years ago. I've written Rugrats, Jimmy Neutron and Fairly Odd Parents, young reader stories. When my I was younger reader there was no such thing as Nick or Cartoon Network, no less entire lines of books based on shows from networks that target young viewers.

Also you can't tell me Harry Potter hasn't changed the rules for YA? During the earlier 90s I had a heck of a time selling YA Fantasy and SF. Now I have three books coming in 2008 and I can't write fast enough to keep up the requests I get from publishers wanting YA SF and F. Sure, I'm a better writer than I was in 90s but not that much better.

The market changes and therefore so do the rules.

Shh. You're making me look bad.

johnzakour · Jul 23, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Shh. You're making me look bad.

Sorry. My wife says I need to work on my social skills. ;-)

Hillary · Jul 25, 2007

If you have a good concept, it'll get published. Word count and page count is so completely beside the point...

My mother got a contract from Hyperion/Disney after handing her agent an 8-page character study. Thats all. Eight pages about a little girl. It became a 131 page book. Then a 137 page sequel. Book number 3 in the series hits stores in January with another 144 pages.

She wrote eight pages and went on to be a New York Times best seller with the concept behind her work, not the number of words behind the concept. Because she found the perfect character, not because she turned in a certain number of pages. Worry about finding the right idea, not your page count. I promise that is the biggest concern of agents and editors as well.

naimas · Jul 28, 2007

Wow. That is very encouraging. Congrats to her for the success.

I have currently written 120 pages of what will probably be about 240 pages. I am having an English Major edit for me as I write 30 pages at a time. I love writing, I cannot express how much I hate editing. It despresses me. I run and hide. I want to do anything other than open up and edit. So having someone help will be a big boost to getting this thing done.

Bufty · Jul 28, 2007

Well, not quite all - she did already have an Agent.

Hillary said:
.....My mother got a contract from Hyperion/Disney after handing her agent an 8-page character study. Thats all. .

Have the Rules Changed?

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