Defining the genre of fantasy

JohnDavidPaxton · Jul 16, 2007

Did a brief search of it, didn't find it. Hope I'm not making the dubious noobious error of posting something that is already played out.

I find Science Fiction is easy to define. For me it's simply any story that has, or had at the time of the works creation, technology that does not currently exist.

Fantasy is a bit harder for me. Is it "Like Science Fiction...only without the technology?" Is there a need of magic? Would you/do you include pieces like The Secret Garden?

So I'm asking you kind ladies and gentlemen:

What makes it afantasy for you.

And, if you're up to indulge and truly vain question:

What makes it an Urban Fantasy for you?

Marian Perera · Jul 16, 2007

JohnDavidPaxton said:
Fantasy is a bit harder for me. Is it "Like Science Fiction...only without the technology?" Is there a need of magic?

I once wrote a novel where different races, bred from humanoid stock, had different abilities (a bit like Star Trek). I thought of it as a fantasy partly because it was set in medieval times and partly because some of the traits and abilities which evolved in the different races could never have come about through biology as we know it. There was no magic in the novel; if someone had fangs or could change the color of their skin or was able to read minds, that was because they belonged to a certain race. So I don't think there's a need for magic in fantasy. Watership Down is a fantasy as well, but there's almost no magic in it.

MattW · Jul 16, 2007

JohnDavidPaxton said:
Did a brief search of it, didn't find it. Hope I'm not making the dubious noobious error of posting something that is already played out.

It's not explicit, but this discussion is pretty tired around most places. Not a noobish offense, because everyone has strong opinions, but the debate never goes anywhere.

The lines aren't always easy to define, and mega-subgenre-hybrids are always being created, but it's not in the tag - it's in the telling.

Write something great, and it will find it's home. An agent will know how to pitch it no matter how you might classify it, and a publisher will call it something else, and a retailer will shelve it wherever it makes sense.

The differences between Dune and Song of Ice and Fire are in the props and furniture. Same with Star Wars and The Belgariad. They actually have more in common with each other than many other stories that should be put in the same genre.

Also, there was an Urban Fantasy thread around a month or two ago...

Sassee · Jul 16, 2007

Fantasy is any form of alternate reality (to me, at least). It doesn't have to have magic. It doesn't have to have strange creatures. There doesn't need to be a castle with a princess who needs rescuing. Hence the reason "Fantasy" and "Science Fiction" are shelved together... after all, werewolves aren't science fact, and "the Force" (a la Star Wars) definitely comes from an alternate reality than our own. I would have to say Sci-Fi is more technology based and fantasy is more into the supernatural, but they are pretty close to each other. (I realize that's not a great evaluation of the two genres... sorry.)

Urban fantasy is when you mix the supernatural with modern day, and set it in or near a big city (hence, "urban").

MilesZ · Jul 16, 2007

Fantasy is all about made up crap. Something not real, but imaginable. Or something that can be in a different world. You don't have to have characters, who act like us, unless they are human or human like. I whether make alien characters, who are not human at all. Physic, science, and nature can all be made up by you. You can add a little explaination, but stay focus on your story. Make anything up, even if it's not believable.

MattW · Jul 16, 2007

Sassee said:
Urban fantasy is when you mix the supernatural with modern day, and set it in or near a big city (hence, "urban").

Rural and suburban fantasy havn't taken off...

...yet.

Sassee · Jul 16, 2007

I said in or NEAR a big city... thus... suburban fantasies count under "urban"

Rural fantasy counts as all those stories that start off with some farm boy who ends up saving the world or being king or something...

MattW · Jul 16, 2007

Sassee said:
I said in or NEAR a big city... thus... suburban fantasies count under "urban"

Rural fantasy counts as all those stories that start off with some farm boy who ends up saving the world or being king or something...

Ah, but what if that same boy was born in 1994 and doesn't get transported to a magical realm, but still has fantastic adventures without coming close to a modern city. Mayberry Fantasy?

Pthom · Jul 16, 2007

. . . the monsters in the manure?

Ogres in the orange grove?

Tractor trolls...

maybe.

ChaosTitan · Jul 16, 2007

Pthom said:
. . . the monsters in the manure?
Ogres in the orange grove?
Tractor trolls...
maybe.

Farm fantasy.

I like it.

mscelina · Jul 16, 2007

farm fantasy? ack! sounds like a porn site!

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 16, 2007

I've always wondered where exactly the line is between dark urban fantasy and horror. They can start to get very close as far as content goes.

How high does the tech have to get before it becomes sci-fi? What about showing technology we already have being used differently? Then, if the book has technology equal to what we have right now or just slightly greater, but also has dragons and magic, is it sci-fi or fantasy? Wouldn't it be both, maybe?

*sigh* None of this would matter if we didn't have to include our genre in the query letter. I wonder how agents would look at a 'romantic science fiction thriller with fantasy elements'?

OddButInteresting · Jul 17, 2007

Hope To The Horizon said:
How high does the tech have to get before it becomes sci-fi? What about showing technology we already have being used differently? Then, if the book has technology equal to what we have right now or just slightly greater, but also has dragons and magic, is it sci-fi or fantasy? Wouldn't it be both, maybe?

I've also been seeking the answer to this question, as my idea has strayed so far from conventional fantasy that it's almost turned into a semi-SciFi.

Dave.C.Robinson · Jul 17, 2007

I tend to distinguish between SF, Fantasy, and Horror according to the basic premise behind the book's worldview. SF is based on the premise that the universe is fundamentally rational and can be explained. Knowledge is a positive force and the universe is at least neutral if not benign. Fantasy is based on the premise that all the universe need be is consistent, it doesn't have to be rational or explained. This is how things are, now let's get on with the story and not worry about whether it's possible or not. Horror is based on the premise the universe is fundamentally irrational and cannot be explained. Knowledge is usually negative, and the universe is at best neutral if not actively malevolent. There are things humanity was not meant to know.

Generally speaking, the fantasy genre overrides SF. So if you have both spacecraft and magic, you're usually considered to be writing fantasy. This is often a good thing as fantasy tends to sell better.

FennelGiraffe · Jul 17, 2007

Dave.C.Robinson said:
I tend to distinguish between SF, Fantasy, and Horror according to the basic premise behind the book's worldview. SF is based on the premise that the universe is fundamentally rational and can be explained. Knowledge is a positive force and the universe is at least neutral if not benign. Fantasy is based on the premise that all the universe need be is consistent, it doesn't have to be rational or explained. This is how things are, now let's get on with the story and not worry about whether it's possible or not. Horror is based on the premise the universe is fundamentally irrational and cannot be explained. Knowledge is usually negative, and the universe is at best neutral if not actively malevolent. There are things humanity was not meant to know.

Generally speaking, the fantasy genre overrides SF. So if you have both spacecraft and magic, you're usually considered to be writing fantasy. This is often a good thing as fantasy tends to sell better.

I agree very strongly with this definition.

However, I'm going to quibble with "fantasy tends to sell better". It sells better currently. This has not always been the case, and it may again not be the case sometime in the future.

Dave.C.Robinson · Jul 17, 2007

I thought about saying currently, but as it's been the case for the last decade or so, I figured it would be likely to continue being the case until the post ages off.

Mea culpa for not being precise on that.

oscuridad · Jul 17, 2007

hmmm, how about:
fantasy is fantastical
SF involves science in some way and is fictional

a bit wild I know...

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 17, 2007

Dave.C.Robinson said:
I tend to distinguish between SF, Fantasy, and Horror according to the basic premise behind the book's worldview. SF is based on the premise that the universe is fundamentally rational and can be explained. Knowledge is a positive force and the universe is at least neutral if not benign. Fantasy is based on the premise that all the universe need be is consistent, it doesn't have to be rational or explained. This is how things are, now let's get on with the story and not worry about whether it's possible or not. Horror is based on the premise the universe is fundamentally irrational and cannot be explained. Knowledge is usually negative, and the universe is at best neutral if not actively malevolent. There are things humanity was not meant to know.

Generally speaking, the fantasy genre overrides SF. So if you have both spacecraft and magic, you're usually considered to be writing fantasy. This is often a good thing as fantasy tends to sell better.

OK, I write fantasy then. Good definition. Thanks

Defining the genre of fantasy

JohnDavidPaxton

Marian Perera

starting over

MattW

Company Man

Sassee

Momma Wolf

MilesZ

MattW

Company Man

Sassee

Momma Wolf

MattW

Company Man

Pthom

Word butcher

ChaosTitan

Around

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

OddButInteresting

Officially a practicing Novelist!

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

oscuridad

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind