A jacket blurb for a fantasy epic

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Long ago the peaceful world of Altoria was ravaged by fierce conflict. Twin sorcerers, brothers torn apart by envy and bitter hatred, battled to decide the fate of the world. Through foul treachery, deciet, and demonic pacts one brother prevailed. The other was entrapped in a magical prison for all time, and his allies were scattered or destroyed.

For nearly seven centuries the Deathless Emperor and his followers have held the world under their iron fist. Through him, his demon patron manipulates the mortal world. No one escapes the depredations of his Dominion. Under the dark emperor and his high priest the people of Altoria have been broken and controlled.

But a time of change is coming. Arius Thell, one small boy, the last of a long line of wizards, will soon discover his magic and his heritage. In so doing, he will embark upon a quest to free his long imprisoned ancestor. Along the way he will awaken his own powers and re-ignite a hunger for liberty in the people of Altoria as he searches for the five stone keys to freedom.

[HapiSofi]

[x] I feel a wave of ennui wash over me when i read that cover copy. It sounds just like the cover copy for every other cookie-cutter fantasy series.

And by the way: In current industry parlance, that's not a blurb. It's a bit of cover copy, or flap copy, or catalog copy, or ad copy, depending on where it appears. The collective term for such material is "sales copy". A very short, punchy bit of sales copy which appears on the front cover of the book -- viz., "She was all things to two men", or "Human enough to love, alien enough to kill" -- is called a "sell line".

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Sales copy, sell line. Hmmm. Ok. Does the publisher usually have marketing write it or does the author?

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Oh, and you lose two points for being pretentious enough to use the the french term "ennui".

[James D Macdonald]

Usually the publisher writes the sales copy. That's a marketing department kinda thing.

[HapiSofi]

Yup. Default mode, the authors don't package their books. They don't decide on the artist, or commission the painting, or approve the finished art or the cover design. They don't write the sales copy or design the advertisements. They may very well help with promotion -- helping set up signings at bookstores, giving interviews, asking their writer buddies for cover quotes -- but they don't write the basic press release or send out the initial review copies. They don't decide on the book's pubdate. They do decide whether their books are going to have dedications, chapter titles, tables of contents, etc., and they decide what the text of those will be, but they don't pick out the typeface in which those things are set.

Is this because publishing employees are control freaks? Generally speaking, no -- except in production/managing editorial, where being a control freak is sort of a professional requirement. Things are organized that way because packaging and marketing a book involves a lot of seriously arcane expertise and complex interlocking schedules and processes, and authors only think they understand all that stuff. A few authors think that and are right; but the vast majority of them are best left to write more books, which is after all what they do best.

If left to their own devices, too many authors would ignore a short, punchy rave-up from People or Time or The New Yorker in favor of a six- or seven-line quote from the Punkydoodle Picayune & Packet-Courier because ithe latter happens to exactly capture their own vision of the book. They yearn to have their body text set rag-right in nine-point Universe, and think it would be a great idea to use one of their niece's lovely paintings as the cover art.

Sure, a few authors are also great copywriters or publicists or cover designers. But for most authors, having all those tasks dumped in their laps -- which is what many POD, electronic, online, etc. publishers do -- is like being a six-year-old who's allowed to run around loose, without any supervision. From a distance it may give the impression of freedom, but in practice the effect is more like neglect.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

In short then,

The publisher is smart enough to let writers write, and salesmen sell?

[PixelFish]

Random aside: I think mileage varies on whether or not the use of ennui is pretentious.

"N is for Neville, who died of ennui." - The Gashlycrumb Tinies

[EJ]

Oi... one thing that annoys me as a reader is when someone does the cover of a book and it looks like they did't even read it.

Like some of the covers for R.A. Salvatore's books. On the cover of some of his books shows his main character as a pale, old looking elf with white hair. The white hair is correct, but the character is a (relatively) young Dark Elf, meaning he should have dark skin and shouldn't be all wrinkly.

(Please excuse any misspellings or parts that don't make sense. I have the flu and am not fully coherent.)

[vstrauss]

>> Oi... one thing that annoys me as a reader is when someone does the cover of a book and it looks like they did't even read it.<<

That's because a lot of the time they haven't. Often all the artist is given is the concept the marketing department has come up with, along with a few directives for clothing, physical characteristics, landscape, etc.

My forthcoming book has a very striking cover--but it has only the most tenuous relationship to the scene it's supposed to depict. Sometimes the author can advocate for changes--for instance, I was able to ask that the heroine be put in a dress rather than the belly-dancer outfit they originally had her in. But most of the time you just have to accept what the publisher comes up with. Readers do notice these things, though. I know I do.

- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com (http://www.victoriastrauss.com)
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

[aka eraser]

Maybe nonfiction books are different, or perhaps just my publisher is.

I was given cover approval and love the one I picked, tho it was the publisher's least-favourite of the 3 "finalists." (Once it was done however, they saw the light ;) )

They also ran the back cover blurb by me and I nearly completely re-wrote it. Again, they kindly went with my version.

Perhaps it was because they are a smaller house or again, maybe the rules are different for nonfiction.

[mammamaia]

is that a royalty publisher, aka?... mind telling us which one?

love and hugs, maia

[aka eraser]

Don't mind at all mama. It was Ragged Mountain Press, a division of McGraw-Hill. And they'll pay royalties; assuming I earn back my advance that is. :)

[qatz]

oh EJ, that flu is horrible. take good care of yourself, rest a lot, and stay away from the computer if possible. :hat

[PixelFish]

Oi... one thing that annoys me as a reader is when someone does the cover of a book and it looks like they did't even read it.

Like some of the covers for R.A. Salvatore's books. On the cover of some of his books shows his main character as a pale, old looking elf with white hair. The white hair is correct, but the character is a (relatively) young Dark Elf, meaning he should have dark skin and shouldn't be all wrinkly.

Without naming any names, there is a certain fantasy illustrator who drives me rather insane, because he has the covers for a well-known series, and the central characters NEVER look the same from cover to cover, nor do they REALLY resemble the characters beyond one or two points.

I bet the R.A. Salvatore cover happened because the artist was told the elf's age, which though young for a dark elf, would be old in human terms, and so the artist thought, "He's old. I'll make him wrinkly."

[Cary]

I had read not long ago in a writing ref,that even though most publishers generally provide these kinds of PR, but that they sometimes appreciate the authors input or opinion(If Its good) on such things as the story brief,cover art,dust cover design,etc.Have you found this to be true for the most part or not ??? I have considered doing my own artwork,as I am a professional artist,or is this best left to the 'pro's' regaurdless ?? And what If you really HATE the ideas they may happen to come up with...where do ya go from there?? Or is It just best to go with the whims of the publisher,just to GET PUBLISHED ???
Any thoughts?? Carybelle

[vstrauss]

>>Or is It just best to go with the whims of the publisher,just to GET PUBLISHED ???<<

If you're talking about a commercial publisher, the answer usually is yes, because they know a whole lot more about it than you do.

I did get asked for ideas (some of which were incorporated) when the editor and the marketing people were brainstorming about a cover concept, and the initial sketches were shown to me. The basic concept they came up with, which I didn't like (I write fantasy, but really dislike fantasy-style covers), was non-negotiable, but I was able to advocate for other changes--the female figure's outfit, some aspects of the background, the fact that the characters are non-Caucasian. I was also told who the artist was going to be and given a chance to look at samples of his work. I think that if I'd been really dead set against him I might have gotten them to pick someone else, but I actually like this artist's work very much. I've also come to like the cover, if I turn off the part of my brain that reminds me how little it has to do with the scene it's supposed to depict. (If anyone is curious, there's an image here: www.sff.net/people/victor...land.html) (http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss/burningland.html))

I re-wrote the cover copy (as many authors do). The people who write cover copy often read only a synopsis of the book and may get a lot of stuff wrong. In my case, there were some major inaccuracies, not to mention a bunch of grammatical errors, all of which I got rid of as best I could, while keeping their basic format. I'm still not crazy about it, even re-written, and don't think it gives a good picture of the book. But the book is all about religion and revelation (an invented religion; it's not religious fiction), and the publisher seems to be trying to minimize that in its marketing.

So would I have packaged the book differently if I could have done it all myself? Probably. I'd have a beautiful abstract literary-style cover. I'd have intelligent, detailed cover copy that stressed the thematic and philosophical aspects of the book. And probably it would go over like a lead balloon, because this isn't how readers in my genre expect or want books to be packaged. Despite my ups and downs with all of this, I do believe that the publisher is doing its best. I also know that I take this stuff much too seriously, and get far too worked up about it.

So commercially published authors do sometimes--but not always--get at least some input into the process, although that input is usually pretty limited. If you're someone like James Patterson, of course, you have a lot more clout--I read somewhere that Patterson vetoed 50 or more cover designs for one book before they came up with something he liked. The rest of us, though, just have to deal with the process as best we can, and hope to have at least some voice in the final product.

- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com (http://www.victoriastrauss.com)
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

[James D Macdonald]

James Patterson was also a major advertising executive before he became a full-time writer, and presumably knows something about selling. He's also gotten some major clout with his publisher thanks to his sales figures. At some point in your career you can say, "Don't like my idea for a cover? Maybe I'll go find a publisher who does..." and have it make a difference.

The cover of a book is a point-of-sale poster. It's a sign telling the readers "This is the kind of book you like to read." It isn't meant to be a literal illustration from the story (though it can be).

Same for cover blurbs.

I've had input on covers on with several publishers, in the form of providing four or five one-page descriptions of scenes from the book. I've had the chance to comment on illustrations on occassion. I've even had the chance (not because it was in the contract, but because I'm good at it) to write my own sales copy (the back-cover blurb). Other times, I find out what the cover looks like when I get my author's copies.



(Not to blow my own horn really loudly, but I'm also a professional back sales copy writer. You see blurbs on books? You may be reading one of mine. Pay's not great, but I get a lot of free books.)

[Illandur Stormcrow]

OK, another question.

I have a young artist friend whose work is amazing and loves my writing. He is going to the Dallas Art Institute, and actually has some credible references, even if I do not. He has been doing everything from character studies to various cover concepts based on my book, he also did a map for me. Should a publisher be foolish enough to publish this particular work, what are the chances I will be able to hand them some of his art and get them to use it?

He really is wonderful, and no doubt would be willing to go cheap on his fee just to break into the business...

Here is the map he did for me:

http://www.machinemay.com/writing/Map.jpg

More of his work can be seen here: www.greenskins.com - The Art of Tal Hollingsworth (http://www.greenskins.com)

[Ravenlocks01]

You may not write the jacket blurb, but you'll need to market your novel to agents and/or publishers. You'll want to emphasize what makes it different, basically what makes a reader think, "Wow, I wonder how that plays out?" That's what I didn't see in the sample blurb you posted.

[James D Macdonald]

Have your friend prepare a portfolio and get in contact with the art directors of various publishers. You'll have a far easier time getting him to work on your novel if he's already one of the artists the publisher has on file. He can start his career separately from yours.

Not that there are any guarantees.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

So what you are saying is that the sales copy has to leave them hungry for more, much the way the story should from chapter to chapter...

Well I seem to be pretty good at generating dramatic tension in my stories. I should be able to to the same with some jacket copy. I'll post a few alternatives after I have finished my current task of revising my outlines and providing my artist with some additional profile info.

I understand what many of you are saying now. The bit I posted does a decent job describing the milieu. IT gives a little info about the protagonist and his antagonists, but it doesn't reach out and grab you by the collar.

It has to say, "Hey! Read me! I am the sort of book you like, but I am new, different, exciting, and here is why!"

[Cary]

Thanks there,Uncle Jim!!! Preciate It muchly.I suppose I will go with their suggestions untill I am able to aquire enough 'clout',to insist on my own work or go elsewhere an be
fairly comfortable that I can choose an alternate publisher who will. Makes sense to me. Thanks! Carybelle

[James D Macdonald]

...untill I am able to aquire enough 'clout',to insist on my own work or go elsewhere...

By then you might have enough experience to know whether or not their suggestions make sense.

[Cary]

Granted.Good point there.I'll play It by ear,then!! Gee,sure is nice to have some good advice floating around in here!! Loved the T-shirt !!!! Too funny!! An so true !!! ;) Carybelle
( Horror short story writer extroirdinaire'.......wanna B..) Ha!

[Illandur Stormcrow]

I too enjoyed the Tee Shirt. I will buy it when it's true. How's that for irony?

[Cary]

I might just buy mine now,an since I'm not yet published It will be like a tailsman,untill I am!! ;) Ha! Thanks much!!!
Carybelle

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Hows this:
-----------------------
At the age of ten Arius watched his parents killed for the crime of heresy. Hauled away as his home was ransacked and burned, his life of misery had begun. Taken to a state run slave farm he was branded and forced to work under grueling conditions. So inured to the abuse he has become over the last six years, that he has even begun to doubt the ideals for which his parents were willing to die.

Under the Gothite Dominion all are forced to worship He-Who-Cannot-Be-Sated, Gothmog, Lord of Lust. Oppression and indoctrination have dulled memories of his priestess mother teaching him the gentle ways of Ayah, mother of all. He has forgotten the stories of freedom. He has forgotten the prophecy of The Bloodborn savior.

Soon he will have no choice but to remember.

Soon he will be forced to confront his heritage.

Soon the power within him will awaken.

No matter how he may deny or dispute his fate…

He is Bloodborn.
-----------------------

Hint: The name of the book is "Bloodborn". ;)

[James D Macdonald]

Better. Now write the book, then worry about the back flap.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

I am! I am! It's about 20% done (28,000 words), or it was, until I realized that I had an additional storyline I needed to add to it (something that just sort of naturally grew from the writing). At the moment I am revising the outline to properly expand that storyline. I plan to get back to writing chapter eight after christmas!

That leads me to another question, but I wil post that on the "Uncle Jim" thread...

[Ravenlocks01]

Much better.

You might want to explain in two or three words what "bloodborn" is so we go "cool!" instead of "huh?" when we encounter it.

Are you aware (I'm hoping and assuming so) that a man by the name of Arius was a famous Christian heretic from the past? The Arian heresy (oddly enough) originated with him. So the name carries a certain amount of baggage for those who know. Just a thought.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Holy...

Yanno, I wasn't thinking about that. I do know about that. In fact I am a Jew you would think I would recall the Christian sect that spawned Hitler's demented philosophy. You know te funny thing about the original Aryans versus the ones we know today, is that they were excommunicated for being overly tolerant! As I recall, Arian sect of christianity refused to castigate those who still followed the pagan norse ways. This led to the roman church refusing to recognize the church of Arius. Jesus, i forgot all about that. I just thought it was a cool name. :\ :ack

[James D Macdonald]

...the Christian sect that spawned Hitler's demented philosophy.

Don't confuse Aryanism with Arianism.

The first concerns the Indo-Aryan racial group; the second concerns the heresy that the Son was not of the same substance as the Father. Not the same thing.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Oh?

I thought the nazi's had drawn a correlation there...

Just assumption on my part. The only thing I really know about the "Arian Heresy" are the references made in the Gary Jennings novel "Raptor".

[Illandur Stormcrow]

So in truth I guess I really didn't know about that. I just liked the name.

However that being said, I did a bit of research and now I think I understand.

Excerpt on the subject from the Catholic Encyclopedia: (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm)
"Such is the genuine doctrine of Arius. Using Greek terms, it denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father, and therefore not like Him, or equal in dignity, or co-eternal, or within the real sphere of Deity. The Logos which St. John exalts is an attribute, Reason, belonging to the Divine nature, not a person distinct from another, and therefore is a Son merely in figure of speech. These consequences follow upon the principle which Arius maintains in his letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia, that the Son "is no part of the Ingenerate." Hence the Arian sectaries who reasoned logically were styled Anomoeans: they said that the Son was "unlike" the Father. And they defined God as simply the Unoriginate. They are also termed the Exucontians (ex ouk onton), because they held the creation of the Son to be out of nothing."

It is not surprising to me that I was unaware of this bit of history, I am not a college grad, nor a student of Catholicism.

All that aside, I like the name Arius. In some ways it fits in well with the position of the protagonist in my book. He will most definitely be viewed as a heretic by the predominant religion of the land, for he is in fact the prophesied messiah destined to bring about the end of said religion...

I find I rather enjoy the parallel. I've never been a huge fan of the Catholic Church. Although the original Arius was unsuccessful in affecting the church in perpetuity, mine most definitely will leave a lasting impression.

[James D Macdonald]

Being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life.

The whole Arian mess gave us this great little rhyme (from John Bellairs' brilliant <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/158754105X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Face in the Frost</a>):

Higgledy piggledy
Saint Athanasius
Riffled through volumes
With unseemly haste.

Trying to find out if,
Hagiographicly,
John of Jerusalem
Liked almond paste.

The Face in the Frost is a stunning example of non-standard fantasy. (And it's short, too: see above the discussion on "how long is a novel?") I recommend it to everyone.

[vstrauss]

Speaking as a long-time student of religion, I think you can be pretty confident that very few people will have a clue that Arius was any sort of historical figure at all. For the average person, this is a pretty obscure bit of knowledge.

- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com (http://www.victoriastrauss.com)
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

[James D Macdonald]

I'm a big believer in the theory that every word must support plot, theme, or characterization. If one reader in a thousand gets the reference, and it's consistent with plot, theme, or character, then that reader's experience is enriched (as opposed to having that reader throw the book against the wall).

Further, if there is additional resonance for the writer, the reader will understand that there is deeper meaning here, and greater consistency, even if that reader never figures out the next level.

[Ravenlocks01]

I guess I'm not average. No surprises there.

But I agree that if Illandur knows the implications behind the name and uses it anyway, taking advantage of those implications because they fit the story he's trying to tell, then his story will become richer, even if some or most readers never get the reference.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

In truth I really only appreciate the anti-establishment parallel. It would seem that the original Arius' beliefs were not based in malice, but purely a difference in philosophy/belief. However his conviction and its spread does seem to have done some harm to those who subscribed to it at the time. Certainlty there is a difference in my story. My protagonist really has a bit more in common with Christ than with the father of Arianism.

This discussion has opened up a few avenues that I really hadn't thought to explore. Certainly, although the current ruling cult in my world is oppressive and evil, there are certain to be those among the general populace who benefit from the status quo and will view this "savior" as a threat. Perhaps there will be others still who will be unwilling to accept Arius for other reasons. It stands to reason that Arius could face all manner of persecution, even from those he seeks to liberate.

Thanks for the nudge in that direction. :grin

[HapiSofi]

1. Everybody who studies any history of the early Middle Ages in Europe gets to hear about Arianism. It's the second- or third-best-known heresy.

2. Don't write sales copy. It will just anoy the editor, and may give them the impression that you're being represented by scammers.

3. You want obscure?<blockquote>Pelagius lived in Kardanoel,
And taught a doctrine there,
That whether you went to Heaven or Hell,
It was your own affair.
That whether you rose to eternal joys
Or sank forever to burn,
Had nothing to do with the Church, my boys,
But was your own concern. ...

[James D Macdonald]

One of the differences between a publishable fantasy novel and the 98% of the slush heap that gets sent back with one of those photocopied notes is the quality of the research the author did.

"Fantasy" doesn't mean "random."

[Illandur Stormcrow]

I am not sure what that means Jim.

Research human nature? I am not an anthropologist. Hell I am not even a novelist yet, that would be quite a stretch. Its a fantasy world, its all in my head. My head is a pretty big place (just ask my ex-wife, she'll tell you my ego could dwarfs planets ;) ). Do I think I can find parallels in the real world that I can use to enrich my fantasy world? Absolutely. Am I going to spend a lot of time on it now? Unlikely. Why? Because I want to write a really crappy novel? Ummm... no. Because I am having fun writing, and it doesn't need to be any deeper at the moment? Yup.

The complexity will grow as the series progresses. I will address some of the deeper socio-cultural issues and study the nature of man at a later date. Right now I just want to have fun while the story is young.

[emeraldcite]

this brings up another question: how much research is too much?

when i read novels and see connections, i often wonder whether they were intentional or not. my experience and knowledge of sources is not the same as the next reader's. that said, how much is the author accountable for every interpretation?

i'm not sure fitzgerald intended every reading of gatsby out there (i use this example for the sake of the extensive literary research on the topic).

does every word fitzgerald use fit a larger puzzle? did he research everything about optometry in order to add in that all-important sign of the eyes?

one author i know had an interview on the radio and the interviewer brought up a point about pickled barrels and things being kosher. when she asked him if this was intentional he said he hadn't thought of it that way, but he did spend time cleaning out a synagogue so it might have been influenced by his experience. it wasn't necessarily intended.

so that particular reader drew an important connection for herself, one that she personally mapped over the finer points of the novel. should the author have done more research into the nature of pickle barrels and emphasized that point, or not?(by the way, he's not doing too bad for himself, his second novel's coming out from random house.)

i guess the larger question then is this: how much is too much, or how little is too little?

[James D Macdonald]

The complexity will grow as the series progresses.

This strikes terror into my heart. Forget the series. Write this one book as if it were the only book you'll ever write.

[qatz]

Emerald brings up an interesting point, aside from the main question on research. That is knowing what the book's even about. Fitzgerald presumably had his own reading on the meaning of Gatsby. One of many. Jim said at one point, that's the right theme, what the author says. I'm not sure. Once it's written down, a book (especially a great one) can take on a life of its own. I used to have this discussion with good writers, I don't know if Kesey was one of them but I suspect so; some of these people would say, "heck if I know" when asked the meaning of their work. The writer being just another reader at that point, intepreting a previously written thing. Suppose the meaning of a book came to trial, and the author was called to explain it. Most of us would be just too darn interested in what the author had to say to notice, but this would classically be hearsay in legal terms. Who can really tell what Stephen King really meant the Shining to mean when he wrote it, compared to what he now says he did at the time, with the benefit of decades of second thought, and a wildly successful movie, about it? In the same vein, the author's stated theme might well be the right one for a book, but who can really say? Maybe Gertrude Hockstadter down in Apaprtment 1A has it right, after all.

[qatz]

It appears that Ill by this time has conclusively proven at least two things; those are:
(1) he intends to make all the mistakes known to man about writing, all wrapped up in one project -- interesting work plan, hope it pans out for him.
(2) his ex was correct at least once.

:ack

[Illandur Stormcrow]

And then some...

Don't they say you have to write a million bad words before you can start writing good ones...

OK Jim, look at it this way. I am writing one enormous book that I have broken up into five parts. If the progress on the first portion is any indication, the entire story will come close to 900,000. If nothing else I will have gotten most of my million out of the way :tongue .

Cringe all you like. I plan the complexity of the story to grow as the characters themselves grow in their understanding of the complexity of their situation. It should be a natural progression. As the story begins the protagonist is a sixteen year old boy. He really doesn't understand the forces aligned against him, nor should he.

In the first book I focus on his day to day survival, personal growth, gaining an understanding of his capabilities, and just giving the barest inkling of what he is up against in the long run. I wrap that all up into an adventure involving a quest for an artifact.

In the following book, I (to borrow from that cook) kick it up a notch. Things start to look grim as the boy realizes the whole world is arrayed against him, and THEN it starts getting complicated!

Bottom line, qatz may be right, but I'm not writing the story for him, or Jim, or the publishers, or really anyone but myself. It's a passion and when it's finished I will have accomplished my goal whether it sells or not. It may be the only book I ever write, but you know what? I will have grown from the experience. Even if that is all I get out of this, that in itself is worthwhile.

[James D Macdonald]

The writer being just another reader at that point, intepreting a previously written thing.

I reject this position utterly.

[qatz]

Okay, James, thanks for your response! A little short on reasoning, but strong on attitude. Can I put you down as negative on the proposition, or shall I mark you "undecided"? :lol ...

Could this be the second Arian Heresy? But of course to be that, I would have to actually believe it, and I'm not sure I do, at least, not in the long run. Whoever said "heck if I know" was probably so stoned at the time it seemed to make sense.

Now, as to Ill, my prediction is that the book will never be done, and that if done it will never be published. I might also add he's one of the most head-strong, frustrating people I've had the misfortune to deal with recently. Even so, I liked his latest response a lot, because he's going at his goal with his eyes open, he appears to have his heart in it, and even if he's following a paint-by-numbers mail-order writing plan you got to give him credit for his chutzpah. You pros may disagree, but I doubt that any further advice will make much difference to him at this point. Quit counting words that don't exist; go off and write it, Ill; prove me wrong, and then we'll have things to talk about. :hat

[Ravenlocks01]

If you're writing only for yourself, you may be on the right track. At the very least you won't be expecting validation in the form of publication or a pile of money. Write from your heart, that's what we're supposed to do. Who knows, publication may follow.

As for the meaning of works, any work is going to speak to each specific reader in a different way, filtered through their own experiences and the context they bring to the read. In that sense even the author can't know the whole meaning contained in his book. But personally I think a lot of so-called literary interpretation is hogwash. :)

[qatz]

Hi Raven. Thanks for stating my theory clearly and briefly. The truth, no doubt, is somewhere in between your position and Jim's. BTW I can't be sure, but I think the "heck if I know" quote was Kesey commenting on Sometimes a Great Notion.

[Illandur Stormcrow]

Thanks for the grudging respect qatz.

I will however have to admit to a teensy little lie. Although it isn't necessarily my primary motivation, it most certainly would not break my heart to see these books published. I do indeed hope to be a pro writer some day. I don't expect piles of money. Enough to pay the bills would be nice.

I would just like to be able to work for myself and be passionate about how I make my living. That is what is so very cool about this project. I think to myself, "Even if I didn't have to work for a living, I would still know what I wanted to do with my time." If I won the Lotto today I would still write this story. So it's not really about money.

If nothing else, when I am done, I will have learned a great deal about writing. My typing, spelling, and vocabulary certainly have improved! :lol

Anyway, I need to stop hanging around here so much and get some chapters written. You all take care. I drop by in a month or so.

[James D Macdonald]

Anyway, I need to stop hanging around here so much and get some chapters written. You all take care. I drop by in a month or so.

This is the proper attitude. Good luck, and let me know how it's coming.

[Yeshanu]

Quote:

One of the differences between a publishable fantasy novel and the 98% of the slush heap that gets sent back with one of those photocopied notes is the quality of the research the author did.

"Fantasy" doesn't mean "random."

Thanks, Jim. I've completed the first draft of my novel, which was written without any heavy research. Now I'm up to my eyebrows in the second draft, trying to fix some of the really obvious things that are wrong, and I can tell you that it would have been a great deal easier if I'd done the research first.

However, if I had done the research first, the novel might never have been written at all, since I find research a great excuse for not writing! So I guess I'm stuck with write first, research, then fix at great effort.

As for research, a basic arts degree with lots of courses in psychology and sociology has improved my novel immensely, but my most helpful courses were History of Religion, Sociology of Religion, and the History of Christian Worship! Fantasy very often includes beings we humans like to call "gods," and it irritates me no end when a fantasy writer has such beings as major actors in her/his fantasy world, and yet the societies portrayed are basically secular.

There -- that's my sermon for today. Thanks for the rhymes, folks. Surprisingly, I haven't heard them passed around my seminary, so I'll take them with me when I go back in September.

Oh, and to get back to the original survey -- I don't buy books based on the cover blurb. I stand in the bookstore and read the first chapter based on the cover blurb (and being a die-hard fantasy reader, if it's a standard fantasy blurb, I'll bite). If I can't put the book down after ten or fifteen minutes of reading in the bookstore, then I'll have it with me at the cash. So it's what's inside of the covers that's important to me, not what's on the cover itself.

Ruth

[maestrowork]

I must admit, I'm a slacker when it comes to research. First of all, I write what I know, 80% of the time. When I need to do research, I do as little as I could to get by. History is the worst. I hate history.

[macalicious731]

I'm with Ray on this one. Doesn't everyone say "write what you know" anyway? Of course, this doesn't mean I'm going to ignore research if such a thing is necessary, but I haven't found a need for that much.

I'm lucky, I guess; I've been able to take a lot of courses that span the need... sociology, philosophy, etc..

[Yeshanu]

History is the worst. I hate history.

But if you write fantasy, you get to make it up. :grin

As far as "write what you know" is concerned, you learn what you know by...

Wait for it...

Research. :grin

That research might just be daily living, but we're all amateur researchers, 'cause that's what learning's all about. And the more you research, the more you learn, the more you know, the richer you're writing's going to be.

An example:

I went to Banff a few years back and learned about a tree called the lodgepole pine. How the cones only open in very hot fires. How the forest burns down and regenerates completely once every century or so. How bears and deer and elks and other animals thrive in the newly cleared areas.

And I thought of a fantasy short story I have yet to write that uses those facts of nature as the basis for dragon ecology.

Research doesn't necessarily mean sitting in a library poring over history books, or taking sociology and psychology classes, though those two pursuits are highly recommended. It could mean taking a holiday to Banff. (Here we come, CC!)

[macalicious731]

Haha, Ruth, you and I have very different definitions of research. :lol

Unfortunately 99% of mine still involves textbooks.

[HConn]

A short Site link removed per request of other site's Webmasterarticle of research tips.

[Yeshanu]

Wonderful tips, HConn.

And li'l mac, I think I like my definition of research better. :grin

[Flawed Creation]

2 comments:

Ilian- while first drafts are never perfect, i don't see why one would deliberate write a simplistic plot, rather than striving to make everything you write as good as you can the first time, and then even better in the rewrite.

as for the interpretation bit, i don't think the author controls what the piece means.

i had certain themes in mind when i started my WIP. some have evolved, new themes have appeared. some things i've realized were subconsciously thematic. i'm sure readers will discover other themes in my work, which i wasn't aware of, but which enrich it. ultimately, what a book was meant to mean matters less than what signifance it actually holds, which is personal and at least somewhat subjective.

[Writing Again]

, i don't see why one would deliberate write a simplistic plot,

I guarantee you the next novel I write will be a simplistic plot. The one I'm doing now, well, it has outgrown itself.

[James D Macdonald]

A plot should be as simple as it can be, and no simpler.

[maestrowork]

Simple but not cliche. I'll take a simple plot over a convoluted one any time.

[vrauls]

As to nonfiction (large house, small imprint thereof):

I had the opportunity (not contractually, they were just being nice) to pass a couple of title suggestions past them, and they chose the one I liked best.

I had a chance to review the back cover copy and make changes (thank goodness as there were things there that I felt were false claims). Again, this was just them being nice to me.

I had nothing to do with the catalog / marketing copy (but kind of wish I did).

I had nothing to do with the cover. It came as a complete surprise when I saw the catalog, and it was exactly the opposite of what I would have designed myself. Now that I see it on the shelf among its competitors, I'm the one who has seen the light. I'm glad they didn't give me the chance to screw it up.

[Flawed Creation]

first of all, i said "simplistic", not "simple".

the comment was intended in response to the statements by illandur that "the complexity would grow as the series progressed."

my point is, why would you deliberate write a shallow book ands plan to add depth later? why hnot make the characters, story, plot, and world as rich and deep as possible from the beginning?