Do you hate what you write?

[Eowyn Eomer]

I have a problem of writing a few pages, then thinking it all sounds stupid, and scrapping it. Is this a normal part of writing and should I just try sticking through it knowing I could later go back and edit if it needs to be?

It seems like the hardest thing for me is to create and introduce characters. I have no problem writing about characters already established in someone else's work. That's where most of my practice has come from - Fan Fiction. But I want to create my own work and find it difficult to introduce my own characters. I can create them fine, knowing their likes, dislikes, personalities, etc. . . But how to introduce them. That's why I often feel my first pages sound so stupid because I'm trying to think of how to introduce a character without wasting a page of descriptors. Or is that normal?

This is how I feel after I've written a few pages - :head I'd rather feel this way - :snoopy

[James D Macdonald]

Yes, that's normal. It's your saboteur-self trying to keep you from writing.

Bull your way through to "The End." Then revise.

[Greenwolf103]

Sometimes, hating what you write can be a learning experience. Study your writing and try to find out WHY you hate it. If there's a problem, you're likely to zero in on it and fix it. If not, give it some time but think about it for a while.

Whatever you do, though, DON'T spend a whole page describing each character.

But, like UJ says, it could be something keeping you from writing. You just gotta break through that and write, anyway!

[Ivonia]

Yeah, sometimes I have that problem too, so I just try to subdue that nagging voice and just write. Although sometimes I will revise parts of the story, most times I've been somehow able to slug through it and continue writing.

Of course for me, I already know a lot about my story, the characters, the world, the things in it, and the rough plotline (I tend to add more stuff or take away as I write it). However, it's taken a few months of massive brainstorming, and outlining like mad (I got about 50 pgs worth of outlines and ideas for this story, so it wasn't easy for me either), and it wasn't always easy, but man, having a "map" of how the story will go sure is making it a lot easier for me.

[Gala]

Now for the armchair psychology tip of the day:

Hating isn't indifference. Hate is a powerful emotion. If you were indifferent to you characters, if you cared less if they lived, died, or existed in the first place, then I'd be worried.

You say introducing them is the most difficult.

Here's an idea:
Open a magazine or website. Make up a story about the first person you see.

Or, when you're in traffic, make up a story about the person driving the car in front of you; or the workman who patched your stretch of road; or the barista you pray concocts your Starbucks latte this morning.

Barring the above, sit down and write. The trick is to give yourself permission to write crap. No one will ever see it but you anyway. In fact, write as poorly as you can, until you're laughing. Keep going.

If you're really stuck, set a time for ten mintutes. Write until the sucker releases you from torture.

The magic will happen: your character/s will start whispering to you what they want to do today, whom they hope to meet at work, how they wish they had a blue shirt rather than a beige one. They will utter their secrets.

Hemingway said, "All first drafts are sh*t." You're in the good company of a Nobel laureate. Enjoy it.

[maestrowork]

I don't really hate what I write, but I know my writing's not perfect. When I write (first draft) I try not to worry about grammar, etc. but pay more attention to the story and the characters.

[katdad]

How to introduce characters? Just start the story "in medias res". That way, the character is already up to the chin in the plot.

When you're beginning to write, you may be trying to force your characters to do things, like they were marionettes. Instead, try to imagine them as real people in a situation. And you're not writing the story, you're instead taking down what happens, like a reporter at a fire might do. Simply "observe" what's going on, how the characters behave, what they say.

That helps you get your mind into the story, instead of being outside and looking down.

[Karen Ranney]

Of course you hate what you write. It's part of being a writer, followed by the inevitable stages of the book:

1. Gag, I hate these characters.
2. Gag, I hate this plot. Why the hell did I ever submit this proposal?
3. I can't write. Why did I ever think I could write?
4. I hate this book. This book sucks more than any other book ever written.
5. Thank God this book is finished.
6. Dear God, I hate revisions.
7. Please God, get me through the final revisions.
8. My editor's going to hate this book.
9. Thank God it's done. I'll never write again.
10. It's finished. I'm brilliant. Can't wait to start on the next one!

Rinse and repeat.

[Risseybug]

:rollin :ha Karen.

Yes, you are what we call "composting". I had this same problem a few weeks ago - everything I wrote in the WIP was crap. It was dull, uninteresting and well, just crap. Or as the French say, crap-a (long a).

You get over it. You scratch out the offending paragraphs and take the story in a new direction. The answer dawns on you - an ephiphany! You go and write the new stuff, which is so much better.

You move on to the next section of crap.

[maestrowork]

Have fun in your writing. It's an experience. It's supposed to be fun. Love what you do and do what you love. If you find yourself hating everything you write, perhaps your heart isn't really in writing, or that you're trying too hard. Take a deep breath, take a walk, take a hot shower. But get back in and know that you can and will do well. Your love for words will show through if you just try to have fun.

[Lori Basiewicz]

The answer dawns on you - an ephiphany!

Yeah. Just remember, epiphanies aren't always fun. Sometimes they can have you banging your head as much as the original problem, just because of all the extra work they generate. But, don't get me wrong, when they happen, epiphanies are wonderful things.

[pianoman5]

Eowyn, perhaps you're concentrating too much on your characters? It's easy to fall into that trap if you have the dictum 'character is plot' in mind. It's true, to a large extent, since the twists and turns of what happens should be determined by the types of people your characters are.

But character is not story. Only story is story. So you might find that getting your story moving first will help, populating it with your characters when appropriate and introducing them sketchily. You can always backfill later, adding detail where necessary. You'll probably find that you actually won't need to add much, because their natures will emerge gradually and more subtly as you write.

[Marley Sinclair]

DON'T spend a whole page describing each character

So how much description is enough? Do I need to tell my readers what she's wearing, what color his hair and eyes are, and how her body looks in the clothes (and no, this isn't for a romance :p ).

But how much is too much?

I asked because I have been accused of over-describing everything...from the characters looks to the furniture in the room.

Any suggestions, ideas, or thoughts on this would be appreciated! :heart

[HConn]

Marley, have you read Understanding Comics, by Scott McCloud? (http://www.scottmccloud.com/store/books/uc.html)

He discusses the effect of realistic art in comics. The less realistic, the more reader identification. The more realistic the drawing, the less identification.

I think the principle applies to prose description, too. The less you describe certain characters physically, the more the reader will identify with them.

Just be aware that readers skim the boring stuff, and a detailed description of a person's clothes can be pretty dull. You either have to make it very interesting, or give enough description that the reader can fill in the rest all by their lonesome.

I recommend McCloud's book. It's a good 'un, even if you don't write comics.

[maestrowork]

So how much description is enough? Do I need to tell my readers what she's wearing, what color his hair and eyes are, and how her body looks in the clothes (and no, this isn't for a romance ).

Enough to help the readers paint a mental image (gender, general age, race, etc.) -- your characters only come to life when he/she is doing or saying things. The descriptions themselves should only give a clue, unless something is unique enough to identify the character strongly (such as a scar or facial feature, or a missing limb or something -- I mean we remember the "one-arm" man but not what he actually looks like).

Vital information should be given as early as possible. You don't want the readers to ID a character as a Caucasian man, then on page 62 reveal that it's actually an African-American woman.

Don't go overboard with the descriptions if it doesn't reveal character or move the story. In your head, you should know what the characters looks, dresses, and acts like. But you don't have to convey everything, especially not in a long info dump, to the readers.

[Vanessa99]

Don't describe your characters in lumps. Sprinkle the description of them over a few pages. Get whats important across first. How this character relates to your main character. Save physical description for later. In physical descriptions I don't like to go into a lot of depth. For the physical I only really describe what stands out to my character and things that characterize whoever is being described. Eg) Messy hair= not to focused on their looks or are frazzled, late, whatever way you use it. A really good way to characterize is to be careful about which words you choose when talking about this character.

When witnesses at a car accident were asked if there had been any glass on the pavement (there wasn't) the ones who were asked "Did you see any shards of glass on the pavement after the cars crashed?" Answered yes more than those asked "Did you see any shards of glass on the pavement after the cars hit?" This is because people relate crashed to glass being shattered stronger than they relate the word hit to glass being shattered. Thus your choice of words can really shape the way your situations/characters are percieved. Even if the words are synonyms like crash and hit.

[James D Macdonald]

So how much description is enough?

How much does your story require?

(Better to ask how long is a piece of rope.)

[veingloree]

I fall in and out of love with a book at various stages of the writing. I general keeping writing anyway -- and when dealing with specific problem I get a second opinions from another writer of that genre (whose opinion I trust).

[Jamesaritchie]

The short answer is not very often. If I find myself hating something I'm writing, I throw it away. For me, hating it means I'm not having any fun, and life is too short to writie things I don;t enjoy writing.

Quality is something else altogather. I try to never judge the quality of what I'm writing. I've always thought the writer is the worst person in the world to judge the quality of writing. All I can do is write it. It's up to editors and readers and critics to say how good or how bad it is. This simply isn;t my department.

But love or hate, yes. If I hate what I'm writing, which does happen on occasion, I just throw it away and start something else. I don't care if it's good or bad. Not the point. I care only that I enjoy the writing of it, if I like it. If I do, it stays, if I don't it goes.

As for how much description is enough, it reminds me of the old question, "How long should a man's legs be?" The answer is "Long enough to reach the ground."

How much description is measured by the type of writing, the writer's personal style, the target audience, and most important of all, does the description get in the way of the story's forward progress.

[WeightlessTiger]

I take Jim's advice and push to the end. I keep telling myself I will come back when the story is done and make it all better. :)

[Marley Sinclair]

Have you read Understanding Comics, by Scott McCloud?
No, I actually haven't read that, but you make an excellent point HConn. I was reading a book one time, and about a third of the way in, the writer finally mentioned that the protagonist had red hair. By then, I'd already visualized him in my mind with dark brown. So from that point on, every time the writer mentioned the color, it jerked me from the storyline.

I already knew less description was needed, but being this is my first attempt at writing, it's more difficult to decide 'how much' than I would have thought.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the advice!

[luckky one]

From one fan-fic based writer to another, Eowyn, you sound like me a couple of years ago when I was still developing my own sense of style.

My advice would be to get out. Meet people. Don't worry about characters right now. Avoid the staleness of Mary Sue. I didn't find anything until after observing people just living daily lives. Okay, to be fair, all it really took was one, but that's a longer story. Learn their own habits and routines. Do this with other writers or creative people too.

I am reminded of that scene in Wonderboys when Robert Downey Jr. and Michael Douglas discuss the character of an eccentric figure in a bar, based solely on his appearance and behavior.

[Writing Again]

My suggestion for the best way to introduce a character is to have them doing something that defines them in a way that defines them. Always active, never static.

It might be walking across a room, picking up a cat, sitting on a bench, driving a car, looking at something or someone.

Static:

Joe is five foot ten inches tall, brown bangs that almost fall in his eyes, a wide smile, and sharply defined, but not buldging muscles, who likes to show off.

Active:

When Joe arrived everyone looked, even those who would have prefered to ignore him; even his exgirlfriend who tried her best to pretend he did not exist.

Joe didn't bother entering through the gate, as everyone else had done. He prefered jumping over the five foot fence, his sharply defined muscles that never buldged acting as though they barely noticed the effort; his dark brown bangs whipping back from his eyes making his wide smile seem even larger.

As he drifted ballet like to the ground he asked, "Hey, are we having fun yet?"

[Eowyn Eomer]

One of the things that gets me confused is how much detail do I need to give on each main character. Do I need to give eye color, hair color, height, weight, build, etc. . . for each one, or should I just focus on a couple each and maybe as the story progresses, other details may find a way to present themselves?

[Pthom]

only as much detail that the reader needs to know or will care about.

[reph]

Eowyn, for most kinds of stories, it doesn't matter what color somebody's eyes are any more than it matters what color shirt he's wearing in a given scene.

[Aramas]

his dark brown bangs

Obviously, 'bangs' is not a commonly used word. It crops up from time to time, mostly in describing small girls. Most people would just say 'fringe'. Is there a difference? Is it just a poetic form? It's something I keep meaning to ask a girl, since they tend to attach more importance to such things than we fellows. Funnily enough, it never seems to come up in conversation. The singular, of course, is another matter entirely :)

[CindyBidar]

Most people would just say 'fringe'.

I don't know what part of the world you are from, Aramas, but I've never heard bangs called fringe. Maybe it's a regional thing? :huh

[La Belle Dame sans Merci26]

I find that there is a certain period of time after I've written something where I hate every word I've typed, and seem to have lost all judgment in analysing it :wha .

What I found worked for me was leaving it for a period of time before looking at it again; waiting until it had that slight unfamiliarity which gives me the distance to see my work in a new light. Then I could better judge whether it was good or bad and edit/improve it:b . I've found this to be true for me with both short and long pieces.

You might find coming back to your work after a period of abandonment allows you to kill the inner 'your-writing-is-rubbish' goblin (or at the very least lock 'im in a box in your head, mine is always kicking at the lid).

[reph]

"Bangs" is standard U.S.-speak for the British "fringe."

In the newsletter of a local group I once belonged to, an American reported on her trip to England. While getting a haircut there, she said "I like my bangs long." The hairdresser replied "Madam, I hardly know you!"

[Eowyn Eomer]

Obviously, 'bangs' is not a commonly used word. It crops up from time to time, mostly in describing small girls. Most people would just say 'fringe'.
Someone said that "fringe" is a British term. I've only seen Brits online use it. I don't know of anyone who calls them anything besides bangs.

Now I've never heard the term in relation to guys, only women and girls.

[HConn]

"Madam, I hardly know you!"

:rollin :rollin :rollin

[mr mistook]

I have days when I hate what I'm writing. I take it as a sign that the inspiration isn't there, or that I'm not apporaching the topic from the right angle.

I wrote a short chapter the other night that felt good when I was in the process, but the next day it all just looked flat and boring. The information I wanted to convey was all there, but the presentation was stilted, and the characters were flat.

Still, I'm glad I took a stab at it. At least it's out, and now I can work with it. Sometimes the first draft just plain sucks, but the worst draft is always better than the one that never got written.:)

[Writing Again]

Doesn't happen often, but I've seen days when my writing looks like the scrawl of a two year old child: Less often it seems like genius drips from every word. I just ignore those illusions and keep right on writing.

[pdr]

I am unable to make those smiley faces stay on my messages so please read this with the picture in your mind that there are many smiley faces and I am gently ribbing you!!!

You Americans tend to say bangs. The rest of us who speak non-American English - and that's a helluva lot more than you guys - say fringe. Bang and bangs has - as Rissy pointed out - a slang meaning that is not about hair!

[Eowyn Eomer]

What are you talking about? English originated in America! The rest of the world is wrong. 8o :b Anyway. . .

[Eowyn Eomer]

On the whole title thing. From what I've read you want the title of your book on the top of every page and there are also chapter titles. Is it normal not to know what to title your book or your chapters until after it's written? For me, I have in my head the story I want to write, but I don't have a clue at the moment what to title any of it.

[Gala]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>it normal not to know what to title your book or your chapters until after it's written? <hr></blockquote>
Normal? Me?

I start with a working title. Can be the name of the file, or the first sentence.

Later, in the middle of the night, the brilliant, perfect title comes to me. I scribble it on my beside pad, and update files and headers the next day. I write it on my whiteboard with the date.

Later still, the real title comes to me. Repeat process.

The publisher is likely to change my perfect title for marketing reasons, but I'll always know my title was best.

I also make a quick cover sheet for the binder my manuscript resides in. This is for my inspiration, and to distinguish my row of white binders (costco shopper) from each other.

[Gala]

to NaNo thread.

[maestrowork]

Gala, that was Fahrenheit 451. ;)

Just bought the 100 tales by Ray Bradbury at Half Price Books. Probably will spend the next year reading them all.

[Writing Again]

The boy with the fringe on top.

I got into trouble on one board because of the way I used the word "spaz." Around here it means spontaneous, original, creative, unpredictable: Evidently in England to call someone a spaz is the lowest form of insult.

[dub]

Really, spaz around here (the swamp) means inept - I like this board's definition better...:grin

from the swamp - dub

[annied]

I've written stuff I've hated. Most times, my first drafts are HORRIBLE. I'm tempted to shred them, stuff them into the fireplace, or feed them to the cat (She loves paper, by the way. I've lost a poem or two that way).I've lost a lot of potentially great ideas doing that because I don't give them a chance.

So now, I'll let them sit and compost for a couple of weeks. Then I sift through them to look for anything worth saving, or if I can find out WHY it doesn't work. If I do, great. I save the gems in the rough. If I don't, then I shred them. I've tried writing in different genres, and I cringe at some of the stuff I've written. But it's part of finding out what you're comfortable with.

Eowyn, just write your draft, and don't worry about getting it perfect the first time. Get it all out on paper. Annie Lamott and Natalie Goldberg says we should "give ourselves permission to write sh*tty first drafts". Set it aside for a while (maybe work on something else in the meantime), THEN go back and revise it. Then pitch it if it doesn't work.

And no, I don't consider working on that kind of thing "wasted time". You learn from each try, and do better the next time.

Annie