HOW DO YOU GET A SIX FIGURE ADVANCE

[Ty T]

Hi I was reading on some other posts that it is possible for a first time author to get a six figure advance, I was wondering what is the factors involved to get this. Is it purely on how good your book is or whether you've got tons of publicity lined up for it

In what conditions would a publisher give an author a six figure advance:

[RichMar]

The best genre for such advances would be Ransom Notes.

[Ty T]

Some people have said it is possible

[batyler65]

I believe you might get better answers to your question in the Novel Writing Forum, so I've moved this there.

B

[James D Macdonald]

How do you get a six-figure advance as a first-time novelist?

A) Write a good book.

B) Be lucky.

Only one of those things is under your control.

[veingloree]

It helps if you rub shoulders with the right people and are widely considered to be a genius.

Failing that you have ta write a book and drag it 'round all the agents and publishers like everyone else ;)

[Ty T]

What if you had lots of publicity lined up with the potential for alot more, would this help

Also does the book need to be excellent or could the idea be excellent

[HConn]

I have an alternate path to a six-figure advance for a first novel:

1) Become a movie star or President of the United States.

2) Write a book.

Good luck with that.

[Tish Davidson]

If you're someone notorious like Monica Lewinski or the Unibomber, it might be possible. Otherwise...

[Ty T]

ah so in a way if you do have lots of publicity for yourself and the book that would help

[Ty T]

I didn't start this post about me personally, I just meant is it possible and what factors apply to getting such a large advance.

[veingloree]

A lot of people have good ideas. The publisher won't gamble on them unless you also have some proof that you can turn a good idea into a great book. These enormous advance 1st time author stories are people capitalising on a siutuation rather than planning it. lets face it, if the folk here knoew how to do it, we would (and probably keep it a secret too).

[Ty T]

So thats like coming back to my previous point
If you know how to kind of manipulate the media and other outlets, that kind of thing

[Ty T]

Does anyone know of any authors that get a six figure advance

[Gala]

Uno: An excellent story, well crafted.
Dos: Persistence.
Tres: Belief in yourself.

For the rest, luck is enough and may occur sooner than Uno, Dos, Tres.

[Ty T]

Yeah I suppose

Has anyone ever heard of any authors getting a six figure advance

[James D Macdonald]

Does anyone know of any authors that get a six figure advance

Yes.

Meanwhile, why not go over <a href="http://www.nicholassparks.com/WritersCorner/Index.html" target="_new">here</a> and read what the man says?

[Ty T]

I suppose it is possible, good on him

[Ty T]

So do you think publicity has anything to do with it at all

[Gala]

Has anyone ever heard of any authors getting a six figure advance
Both Clintoons.

Stephen King when he wrote Carrie umpteen years ago.

A first-time author in Tacoma Wa. I read about when I lived in Seattle. Book was optioned for a movie. IMHO the book was lousy and the movie never happened, but sometimes flukes happen.

Michael Crichton when he was new and young.

John Grisham for "The Firm" when he was unknown--it was movie optioned.

Probably Donna Tart for her second book, written many years after her first.

The six-figure myth isn't always a myth; the public only knows of those who continued to publish. Many others have slunk away to the slough of despond.

etc.
-----------------------
Publicity: see numero Dos above; persistence.
Obviously if nobody sees your book or knows about it, well...
(note to self: "obviously" and "see" redundant.)

[Ty T]

So does it depend soley on how good the plot is cause I suppose at the time they didn't have very much publicity behind them

[Ty T]

So do you think that if you can get it optioned or considered by a movie first, this helps matters

[Jamesaritchie]

It's good to remember that both Stephen King and Tom Clancy received four figure advances for their first novels. King received only $2,500 for Carrie. Now both receive eight figure advances.

Unless there are extraordinary circumstances, teh writer is already famous for something else, the novel is a movie tie-in, the novel is a sequel to a famous novel such as Gone With the Wind, etc., first time novelists are extremely unlikely to receive more than low five figure advances, and will often receive four figure advances.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. If you want to kill your career quick, receive a six figure advance and sell only four figure number of novels. It happens.

Publishers only give advances they think will earn back, no matter who the writer is. And as I remeber one publisher saying, "If you want a million dollar advance, just write me a novel I know will earn two million dollars."

This is really the secret. If you want a six figure advance, then something about you or the novel will have to make the publisher pretty much absolutely certain the book will earn twice as much as he's giving you.

Manipulating the media isn;t any good. Eitehr you have a reason for being well-known, and for this degree of fame to make publishers think it will translate into novel sales, or you don't. Publicity alone is often worthless.

If your name is a household word, you'll receive a six fingure advance. If not, you'll most likely have to earn the six figures from royalties.

New Writers worry too much about the size of the advance. A huge advance can be as much a minus as a plus. A novel given a huge advance can fail to sell and ruin a writer's career. A novel with a small advance, on the other hand, can sell two million copies, and make the writer's career.

Nearly all the famous writers out there started were given very small advances for their first novels.

The only quibble I have with Sparks" advice is when he says the paperback market was much larger in the 70's. It really wasn't. The problem now isn;t with teh size of the paperback market, but with the size of the conglomerate publishers and the fact that these publishers are really run by accountants. They want a constant turnover of writers in hope of finding the next King or Clancy.

He's right in saying that writing a good novel isn't enough. It must be a good novel that has mass appeal, and since no one knows why a given novel has mass appeal, you just write the best you can and hope your taste in writing translates into the public's taste for reading.

[SRHowen]

Come up with something no one has done before. Jean M Areul Clan of the Cave Bear, six figure advance many years ago--

Does publicity have anything to do with it? No. Unless as noted above you are already someone the public knows well and wants to know more about. Or you are the first to write about some popular event.

How good the plot is, publicity--etc etc---seems that the question is really--is there a short cut to getting 6 figures no matter what the book is like.

The answer to that is NO.

WRITE A DAMN GOOD UNIQUE BOOK.

Shawn

[Ty T]

What is a good sign concerning publishers

If they reply quick does that mean they are interested or they're not

[reph]

It depends. For example, if they reply quickly and their reply is "No," it means they're not interested. If it's "Yes," it means they are. These answers have the same meanings if they come after a long interval.

Most people who write novels don't get rich at it.

[SRHowen]

Good grief--stop obsessing here.

Ask your agent!

An agent gets replies much quicker than just you as an author does.

write the next book, stop worrying about it. That's why you have an agent, so you can do the important stuff -- write while the agent worries.

Shawn

[reph]

Shawn, I'd estimate a low probability for Ty's having an agent at this stage.

[James D Macdonald]

The value of "publicity" is greatly over-rated.

Mostly what publicity does in publishing is this:

It tells readers "You know that book you were planning to buy the minute it came out? It's out now."

If huge crowds of folks aren't planning to buy your book the moment it comes out, spending on publicity is wasted dollars.

[arainsb123]

JK Rowling also got a $100,000 advance for her first novel (or was it more ... I remember reading something about it in the "unofficial biography."

[Jamesaritchie]

"What is a good sign concerning publishers"

Having them offer you a contract.

[Jamesaritchie]

"JK Rowling also got a $100,000 advance for her first novel (or was it more"

It was less. A lot less. She received only $4,000 for her first novel, which actually wasn't bad considering the publisher and the genre.

She didn't receive big bucks until after the book took off and started selling very, very well.

[maestrowork]

Luck. But yeah, write a good book that people WILL buy.

Stephen King's first advance was $2500 -- only when he sold the paperback rights to Carrie did he get six figures.

Grisham's first book only sold 5000, with a small publisher. Only until he wrote The Firm did he hit it big.

Rowling did get $100,000 for HP. But she wrote a good book.

I think if you keep thinking about six figures, you're bound to be disappointed.

[Writing Again]

I don't want to think the overall success of my life time depended on the advance I received on my first book sale (which was $1,500)

Hey, come to think of it, I've had at least three "first novels" and am working on another one.

Maybe this time I'll get a whole $2,500 advance.

[James D Macdonald]

Getting a $5K advance and earning $100K in royalties is good. Getting a $100K advance and earning $5K in royalties is bad.

<HR>

Rowling's first advance was the equivalent of $4K.

Her first big advance came some time later, when Scholastic bought the American rights, after Harry Potter was already a success.

[SimonSays]

Ty -

If you are dreaming of a six figure advance - you are human.
If you are trying to figure out the criteria for getting one - you are spinning your wheels and wasting your time.

There is no one thing that will lead to one - not even noteriety, necessarily - unless you're as famous as President Clinton or Oprah.

You could get a normal advance and still make 6 figures off the book if you are able to sell enough copies.

If I were you I'd focus less on the size of the advance and more on the quaity of your book.

[vstrauss]

Money is one of the most unpredictable things in publishing, and about the last thing a new author should be worrying about. Good grief, there's enough to stress out over without obsessing about your possible future advances. Obviously it makes sense to know what's out there and what to expect, but as far as your writing ambitions go, I think it makes sense to take money off the table right from the start. That way, if it comes, it comes; and if it doesn't, you won't have to get all embittered about it.

- Victoria

[Writing Again]

Money is one of the most unpredictable things in publishing, and about the last thing a new author should be worrying about

What she said.

[cwfgal]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>New Writers worry too much about the size of the advance. A huge advance can be as much a minus as a plus. A novel given a huge advance can fail to sell and ruin a writer's career. A novel with a small advance, on the other hand, can sell two million copies, and make the writer's career.<hr></blockquote>

Writers should always try to negotiate the highest possible advance, however. If your publisher has enough money invested in your project, they're going to promote and market that much harder to ensure they recoup their investment. A novel with a small advance that sells 2 million copies would be great but it's not very likely to happen since the publisher doesn't have much motivation to get the book out there and give it wide distribution.

Which book do you think a publisher will market the hardest? The one they paid $2,000 for or the one they paid $50,000 for?

Beth

[Writing Again]

Which book do you think a publisher will market the hardest? The one they paid $2,000 for or the one they paid $50,000 for?

This is true, but there are other rights to go into the mix.

In the future I want to retain movie rights. I want to peddle my own adaptation to Hollywood.

In the future I want "out of print rights." and the right to buy up remanded stock.

I did not know about these when I started writing. I can't say I was cheated out of what was rightfully mine as none of my novels have ever been reprinted or sold to Hollywood.

This is why you really do need a good agent unless you want to put an awful lot of study into this.

[Jamesaritchie]

If marketing dollars could sell a book, publishers would simply put marketing dollars behind every novel they publish, and every last one would be a best-seller. If marketing could make a novel a best-seller, publishers would make just as large a profit by putting the money behind a book they only gave a $2,000 advance, rather than one they gave a $50,000 advance. It would, in fact, make more sense to market the $2,000 advance.

It just isn't as simple as marketing. Marketing generally only helps a book that is already selling well, which is why publishers wait to put money behind most novels until after the public starts buying them in large numbers. As they say, marketing and publicity only help a novel that doesn't need marketing and publicity.

There's the mistaken notion that a novel that has money behind is going to sell a lot of copies, while a novel that doesn't have money behind it isn't. The truth is that novels without a dime of marketing become best-sellers every year, and novels with hundreds of thousands of dollars behind them flop every year.

Off the top of my head, I can't, with one exception, think of a famous writer who became famous because of marketing. In nearly every case, whether you're talking King, Clancy, Rice, etc. the first novel they had published received a tiny advance and zero promotional dollars until AFTER the public started buying them in large numbers. The only exception I can think to this was John Grisham, and the only reason he was an exception was because he actually sold movie rights for a high seven figures before anyone ever bought the novel.
And it was actually Grisham's second novel that took off.

Novels become bestsellers because the public wants to read them enough to buy them and talk about them, not because of marketing. I wish it were as simple as marketing.

As often as not, marketing dollars just means the publisher is not only going to lose a large advance, but marketing dollars, as well. Because of this, a first time writer simply isn't going to receive a large advance unless there are outside circumstances to justify it. After a writer's first novel, advances are more of less sized in accordance with how many copies the previous novel sold.

I'm not saying not to take a large advance. If it's offered, grab it and run. But be aware that unless that novel turns a profit, and marketing dollars won't do the trick, the publisher is going to lose a lot of money, and they'll blame you.

And don't ever think the difference between a novel that sells well and one that doesn't has much or anything to do with marketing and publicity. Marketing dollars are almost always used to boost a novel that already has storng sales numbers. When you put marketing dollars behind a novel the public doesn't want to read, it flops just as if it didn't have a dime behind it.

[Gala]

James--
I was going to disagree with you because of the Oprah book club, which has made some lousy books bestsellers.

Then I remembered a "writer" (loose term) I met; took a seminar with him a few years ago. He had been on Oprah with his self-help book. The book was ok, and he did write another, but neither took off. I think he got on Oprah for being linked with a famous company years ago. It turns out I worked for the same company, and never heard of him though he made great claims about his "inventions" there.

But we're talking novels. My impression is novels do better w Oprah than non-fiction.

I don't want to see a cardboard cutout of my image when I walk into a brick and mortar, publishing blitz or no.

:nerd

[Writing Again]

Jamesaritchie

And don't ever think the difference between a novel that sells well and one that doesn't has much or anything to do with marketing and publicity. Marketing dollars are almost always used to boost a novel that already has strong sales numbers. When you put marketing dollars behind a novel the public doesn't want to read, it flops just as if it didn't have a dime behind it.

It really does come down to this.

Sometimes I think the market is ready for a certain type of book and they will consume whatever they can get that fits the bill. Dancing with Wolves comes to mind. For ten years it languished because the market was not ready for it. Then one day the changing attitude toward Native American Indians reached critical mass.

I think The Boys From Brazil, Jurassic Park, and The da Vinci Code, were books whose time had come. If a great writer wrote that book, well and good, but if a lesser writer wrote the book it would still sell.

If the editor, publisher, producer, spots the book that the market is most ready for, then they can give it the push to take it to the top.


Bottom line:

Your best salesman is the reader who says, "Hey, you gotta read this book. This is gonna be my favorite author."

[preyer]

'The best genre for such advances would be Ransom Notes.'

bwahahahahaha!

[mr mistook]

Dude! Getting a six figure advance is so easy! All you need to do is capture a wild blue billy goat and sacrifice it to the demon known as publicus, on a granite stone, in the light of the full moon.

After that, it's a simple matter of stripping down to your skivies and saying the magic words, "Sextus Advanticus Figurato!"

Lightning strikes. You lose your eyebrows, and POW. Thirty five million dollars materializes in your underwear. No need to write anything! Just send off a grocery list to your local publisher and they'll make it a best seller. Spend the rest of the money as you please!

[Euan Harvey]

If marketing dollars could sell a book, publishers would simply put marketing dollars behind every novel they publish, and every last one would be a best-seller.
This made me smile, mainly because it's so true. I don't think I have ever bought a book on the basis of marketing (excluding the cover). I have bought several of the Harry Potter books, but I bought them because of people's recommendations, not because of the movies or the advertising.

IMO, people enjoying your story and recommending it to others is worth far more than any marketing budget.

[James D Macdonald]

Ah, but there is marketing. It's just that the marketing is out of sight to the public (and to the authors). Let's not confuse publicity with marketing.

The marketing happens between the publishers and the bookstores.

Some books get harder pushes and bigger ads in the trade press. Some get foiled and embossed covers. Some get cardboard dumps and endcap placement. That's all marketing.

No one will buy your book in a bookstore if it isn't in the bookstore in the first place. The marketing efforts get the books placed.

Then, when the guys are talking about some book in the carpool on the way to work, you'll be able to find it during your lunch hour. (Special order? Not too likely.)

[Euan Harvey]

I stand corrected (and better informed). So I'll say that I've never bought a book on the basis of publicity, but I've picked a bunch up because they were sitting in big piles as I walked in the door of the store.

Elaborate covers are always a good sign as well, especially I've found, if the cover has a cut out. I bought "Reliquary" (sequel to 'Relic' -- you may remember the movie) because of the cut-out on the cover. Turned out to be a great story too.

[Gala]

I'd love to get into Costco.
:clover

[Writing Again]

Then, when the guys are talking about some book in the carpool on the way to work, you'll be able to find it during your lunch hour. (Special order? Not too likely.)

Definite point. Wherever I go I frequent book stores of all kinds, new, used, you name it.

From Roseville California ( just above Sacramento, haven't been to Sac in a while) to Grants Pass Oregon I have not found a retail (new books) store that carries a Debra Doyle, James D. Macdonald book, and they show up very rarely in used book stores -- Nor do the owners of used bookstores recognize the names.

So what does it take to get Debra Doyle and James D Macdonald into Barnes and Noble along side Harry Potter and David Eddings?

[James D Macdonald]

So what does it take to get Debra Doyle and James D Macdonald into Barnes and Noble...?

Every darned one of our books has been there. What it would take right now would be a new book under our names -- the last one came out two years ago.

Heck, for a while one of our books was on automatic reorder at B&N.

Drop by your local B&N to look for Murder by Magic, edited by Rosemary Edghill. It should be on the shelves everywhere.

As to why our readers don't sell our books to used bookstores ... well, grin.

[Jamesaritchie]

Many writers point to Oprah as areason why marketing helps, but they fail to understand that Oprah hasn't got a darned thing to do with publisher marketing and publisher publicity. Oprah is really a review site. It doesn't matter how much or how little money a publisher puts behind a book, Oprah reads what she wants to read, the recommends books she loves, and believes those who watch her show will love. She's right almost every time.

But she's just a review site, no different than The New York Review of Books, or Good Morning, America.

I never said reviews in the right places can't help a book. Reviews in the right places are about the only thing that can help a book, and Oprah is really just the best review place a book can land.

And I'd disagree completely that she's made lousy books into best-sellers. Most of those books were selling pretty well anyway. They don't appear in her hands by magic, she's already found and read them. And, in truth, I've read most of them and haven't found one yet I didn't think worthy of selling trmendously well.

She's also smart enough not to recommend every book by a given writer. She says some are bad and some are good, and pre-book club sales numbers bear this out almost every time.

But the books still only sell if an awful lot of people trust that review site to recommend a book they will love to read. When any source, whether it's Oprah, of The New York Review of Book, or Good Morning, America, starts recommending books the majority of people don't love, that place loses credibility and people stop taking buying the books they recommend.

Review sites, right along with Oprah, only help books as long as they continue to recommend books people will love. Oprah has an exceptional record of this, and while you may not like the books she recommends, millions do, and I'm right there with them. As I said, I've read most of the books she's had on her club, and I think almost all are exceptionally well written, well-told, and deserved the sales they received. I think many will go on to be classics in the literary field, and some, in fact, already have.

People simply don't continue to buy books from writers they don't like.

There's a saying that a great review in the right place will generate 100,000 sales, and that a bad review from the same place will generate 90,000 sales. There's a lot of truth in this, but it only works once for a bad writer, and if the public loses faith in the source, it stops working at all.

But you just can't confuse marketing with reviewing. You're holding onto the wrong end of the stick when you do this. Oprah and The New York Review of Books, and Good Morning, America have nothing to do with publishers. This is why they work. Publishers try their darndest to get every book reviewed from these sources, but it's out of their hands.

Whether the publisher gives you a $2,000 advance, or a $100,000 advance, these sites are independent. They pick and choose books THEY want to review, then recommend books THEY think the reading public will love. It has absolutely nothing to do with publisher marketing. It has to do with these sites having the experience and know-how to be right far more often than they're wrong.

When most of us here have a novel published, the publisher sends copies of our novels to these sites, and many others. My publisher automatically sends fifty copies out to the best fifty review sites they can find, and I give them a list of another fifty. This is really all the publisher can do.

The reading public isn;t a flock of sheep. They turn novels into best-sellers because they, as a whole, love those novels, and the publishers simply can't control this, and when it happens it won't be because the publisher puts publicity behind the novel, it'll be because word of mouth. A few people read the book, love it, tell their frineds, etc. A great review in the right spot just speeds this process up considerably.

As for Barnes & Noble, Borders, etc., we get our books there simply by writing them and having them published by mainstream publishers. After that it's up to the buying public.

[James D Macdonald]

"Appeared on Oprah" is just another example of "the book all your friends are talking about."

The reason all your friends are talking about this book is because they saw it on Oprah. (And Oprah positions herself as Your Friend -- that's her appeal.)

[La Belle Dame sans Merci26]

I think generally:

The more books the publisher thinks they will sell = the greater the advance.

So a wonderfully written, highly marketable book is what publishers seem to be looking for. But the element of marketable is one of the hardest to pin down. Looking at current markets can be invaluable, but won't necessarily tell you what publishers are looking for right now (the current popular trend could represent saturation in that market). Even publishers get it wrong, and they are in the best position to know what will sell.

It's not an exact science. I mainly concentrate on improving my writing.

[James D Macdonald]

I mainly concentrate on improving my writing.

That's the right thing to do, mostly because it's the only thing under your control.

[cwfgal]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Novels become bestsellers because the public wants to read them enough to buy them and talk about them, not because of marketing. I wish it were as simple as marketing.<hr></blockquote>

It almost is that simple but much of the marketing that takes place goes on behind the scenes. Marketing includes deciding where a book will be placed on the publisher's list. Marketing includes deciding how hard the sales force is going to push a given book to the wholesalers and retailers. Marketing determines what kind of cover a book will have and whether or not it will be a hardcover or mass market paperback on initial release. Marketing influences where and how the book appears in the company catalog. Marketing influences how likely it is that a given bookstore will order a given book. Marketing decisions determine print runs and distribution. Marketing decisions determine whether or not ARCs will be created and sent out for review.

All this happens before the public has a chance to read the book. And if the right decisions aren't made in this marketing process, the book can be the best thing ever written and no one will know it because no one will be able to find it in the bookstores.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And don't ever think the difference between a novel that sells well and one that doesn't has much or anything to do with marketing and publicity. <hr></blockquote>

I disagree. A novel's success can and does have a lot to do with marketing and publicity. The money a publisher pays up front for a book equates to the money they put into it down the road. If a book they have a mere $2K invested in doesn't sell well, it doesn't hurt them that much and they don't have a lot of motivation to make that book succeed. The book they already have $50K invested in will get a lot more support, push, and attention.

A big advance is no guarantee of success, of course. But fear of getting a big advance and not having the book earn out should never stop an author from trying to get the highest advance possible.

Beth