Songs in Novels

Stephania · Jul 6, 2007

Ciao,
Maybe I'm not asking the question right in search and what I'm trying to find out is the following:

I'm making an outline for another novel and I want to have a few old and new songs (5 in total and very important for the story) in the novel. Am I allowed to write the title of the song? A couple of lyrics of the song? May I also announce the singers name?

Where do I find, or how do I find the answers?

Many thanks,
S

blacbird · Jul 6, 2007

Titles are okay, names of artists are okay, but lyrics are almost certainly protected by copyright, unless the song is very old. U.S. copyright statutes protect everything published after 1922. There are a number of relatively recent threads here discussing this issue.

caw

sassandgroove · Jul 6, 2007

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657721&postcount=9

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60397&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29041&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40846&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37802&highlight=song+lyrics

sassandgroove · Jul 6, 2007

I would suggest not using real songs. The reader won't get the same meaning from the songs that you do. Plus it will date the story. If you offer a mere suggestion of a song (rather than naming a specific song.) or reference a fictional song and ascribe the meaning you want to convey, I think the story would work better. When I tried to add pop culture to my story it just came across as forced, and when I changed it and made up the culture for the story it came across as believable. That's not to say it can't be done. Take High Fidelity for example. But it is still dated. And I didn't get half the references. So make sure if you 'must' use the songs that those people who don't know the songs get why you are referencing them.

BlueBadger · Jul 6, 2007

I agree, nothing dates a story faster than a song ... unless, of course, you're writing a story that's supposed to take place in the 70s or whenever.

Stephen King exploited "Don't Fear the Reaper" for The Stand, and even though it fits the subject matter remarkably well, it kind of has a hokey feeling to it all these years later.

(It doesn't help that the story was originally written in the 70s and then "re-written" for the 90s with some sloppy errors. Still a great book, though.)

BlueTexas · Jul 6, 2007

BlueBadger said:
Stephen King exploited "Don't Fear the Reaper" for The Stand, and even though it fits the subject matter remarkably well, it kind of has a hokey feeling to it all these years later.

I didn't think it was hokey. But maybe I'm just old

I think if you're going to use a song, it had better be very well known. There was a thread last week about this, where someone used a Stones song. A lot of people didn't get the reference, which was shocking to me, but also informative.

katiemac · Jul 6, 2007

Truth is, songs mean different things to everyone. The emotion you want to convey in your story by using them is very rarely going to resonate the same emotion with your readers. If possible, it's better to get those emotions to appeal through your writing, then everyone understands.

And yes, if you do a quick search for "songs" or check out the Novel FAQ stickied above, then you'll find a lot more threads on this topic. Good luck!

sassandgroove · Jul 6, 2007

That's the point. That Stones song is well known. No matter how well known a song is, there will be people who don't know it.

sassandgroove · Jul 6, 2007

HAZZAH! I found it. Read Hapisofi's post #7. I bookmarked it this time! She shows a fine example not only of why not to but HOW.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18054&highlight=song

maestrowork · Jul 6, 2007

I agree with Sass and Katie... as much as you think the songs are PERFECT for your story (trust me, I know -- I've done that myself), they mean different things to different people and also if the readers are not familiar with the songs, they will likely go, "Huh? You're dragging things out..." or they will skip the lyrics anyway.

You're also likely to date your story, unless they're time appropriate (it's the sixties and your characters are listening to the Beatles) or if the songs are classics anyway.

If you just mention the titles, don't make a big deal of it. If your readers know the song, they will hopefully "get it." If not, no big loss.

It really does mean more to the author than the readers.

Now, if it does evoke some particular emotions for the CHARACTER, it might be worth pointing out. However, like other symbolism or "dream sequences" that are supposed to reveal the character's psyche, these things are more abstract and subjective. Again, they probably mean more to the author than to the readers, so use them wisely.

Beware_of_Italics · Jul 6, 2007

Barbarique said:
But in my book, the lyrics are evoking emotions from a character, which I regard as an entirely different matter.

That's the boat I'm in as well. It hurts to have to take those lyrics out, so I guess I'll find another way around it. All I know is that that particular song's message has to be worked into the story b/c it's a reflection of this one character. That scene worked so well with the lyrics. Those few lyrics - whether readers knew the song or not - would "get it" immediately. I'll find a way to mend it though.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 6, 2007

Barbarique said:
I used four lyric snippets from four different songs in my completed novel. Possibly I may eliminate 3 of them (or maybe not) but one is utterly indispensable, and if I have to buy the permission, so be it.

As for using songs to evoke moods and or emotions, it's quite true that those will vary from reader to reader. But in my book, the lyrics are evoking emotions from a character, which I regard as an entirely different matter.

I've heard suggestions to compose your own lyrics. That's a splendid idea... if you happen to be a lyricist. If not, they are unlikely to turn out well, and might possibly be laughably terrible. Me, I wouldn't dream of trying. I have no problem accepting my own limitations.

Even if you are able to buy permission, which can sometimes cost many thousands of dollars, there's still a chance the publisher won't want it in the novel for a variety of reasons.

johnzakour · Jul 6, 2007

Besides the obviously legal ramifications I just can't understand why writers would want SOMEBODY ELSE'S words in their novels.

But that's just me.

Using Lyrics in books has been covered A LOT here.

It's hard and expensive to do, doesn't add nearly as much to the story as you think and your publisher will most likely edit out any song lyrics.

Still, if you want to try it go ahead and try it.

johnzakour · Jul 6, 2007

I truly believe one thing newer writers tend to forget is that, even though you need to write books that you yourself would enjoy reading, you are (hopefully) not going to be the only one reading your books. You do have to please yourself but you also have to keep your readers in mind. Just because you think something is the best thing since sliced bread, doesn't mean your readers will.

I almost used other person's words in my first book. Daw had me change the words to original lyrics. The book is much better for it. (I wanted to use the first line to the Brady Bunch theme song it would have cost more than I or the cover artist was paid for the book.)

Jamesaritchie · Jul 6, 2007

Song

Barbarique said:
Perhaps.

Then again, perhaps not. Time will tell.

Well, time has already told most of the story. You just have to look at the way publishers already handle anything that comes in where the writer is using material someone else owns.

No novel needs song lyrics in it. There are too many ways to paraphrase and rewrite. If you're Stephen King, you can get away with anything. If you're a new writer, you can't.

maestrowork · Jul 6, 2007

Beware_of_Italics said:
That's the boat I'm in as well. It hurts to have to take those lyrics out, so I guess I'll find another way around it. All I know is that that particular song's message has to be worked into the story b/c it's a reflection of this one character. That scene worked so well with the lyrics. Those few lyrics - whether readers knew the song or not - would "get it" immediately. I'll find a way to mend it though.

Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

maestrowork · Jul 6, 2007

Barbarique said:
Perhaps.

Then again, perhaps not. Time will tell.

Well... but why give the publisher another reason to reject your ms.?

Beware_of_Italics · Jul 6, 2007

maestrowork said:
Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

Well, the lyrics worked for me but I know that doesn't mean it would work for everyone else. Everybody is different and not everyone can be pleased. But the fact remains that I won't be able to use those lyrics, so I have no choice but to come up with another route.

Which is okay. I wouldn't say my entire story will be destroyed without those lyrics. That would be depressing. :tongue

It's only that I, personally, enjoy it more the way it was originally written. (Not to mention that that one scene - with the lyrics present - was the very first visual in my head for this book. So I guess that's another reason why I'm so attached to it. Without that scene and that song... this book might never have been written in the first place). At least I can have my own personal copy of how I wish it to be. That's comforting enough for me.

Stephania · Jul 6, 2007

Okay, let me explain it this way.

What I have in mind in my outline in short, one scene is Mary's revenge in a way.

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

It's better than that but that's what I mean about using a song, like a backdrop? sort to speak? Bad idea?

Stephania · Jul 6, 2007

maestrowork said:

Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

Click to expand...

Maestrowork!
I see your point! I'm trying to make this work like a movie, the song plays and their eyes meet, but it really doesn't work in literature. They do just become words, the reader won't feel how I feel about the song. Hhmm. I really got it. Thank you.

Give me time, I'll get it!

Duncan J Macdonald · Jul 6, 2007

Stephania said:
Okay, let me explain it this way.

What I have in mind in my outline in short, one scene is Mary's revenge in a way.

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

It's better than that but that's what I mean about using a song, like a backdrop? sort to speak? Bad idea?

Don't know if it's a bad idea, but if the title of the piece is "I wanna be around", then it really doesn't evoke anything for me -- I haven't a clue what the lyrics are (if any), who the artist is, male, female, androgynous; whether the tune is upbeat, downbeat, slow, fast, or intermediate.
From my point of view, you could get the same effect (from me, at least) with Mary dressing to the nines, going to the jukebox, and choosing a set of slow dance tunes -- then she goes and asks random men to dance with her right in front of Michael.

YMMV

Shady Lane · Jul 6, 2007

I have two songs referenced in my WIP:

The bedroom smelled like sawdust and sleeping bags. The quilt scratched Sash’s unshaven cheek. Bright Eyes hummed on the speaker above his head, the melody so insubstantial that it almost wasn’t there. The running water in the bathroom was practically percussion.

The chorus started and the harmonies twilled together.

‘Another One Bites the Dust’ [his ringtone] competed with Bright Eyes.

The song is, specifically, We are Nowhere and it's Now. But if you know any Bright Eyes, you'll understand the vibe of the scene. If you don't know any Bright Eyes, I hope I managed to describe it accurately without being annoying: It's quiet, simple, and sparse, there are harmonies, and it contrasts with Another One Bites the Dust.

Yeah, and Another One Bites the Dust is mentioned sometimes too. It's his ringtone. I figure most people know it at least vaguely, and if not...no one's suffering. The title's still ironic enough, at certain times.

JoNightshade · Jul 6, 2007

I am almost always against using songs, song titles, or song lyrics in a book. It just doesn't work as far as I'm concerned. It's not a movie, it's a book. For all you know, I, the reader, could have my own mood music playing while I'm reading it, and here you are trying to drag me off into some other song YOU really like but that I don't know. It's annoying.

Although I would say that Shady's first example works because she focused on the fact that it was "insubstantial" and the water in the bathroom rather than the song itself. That said, it's still kinda annoying because I don't know that song.

If you really want to have something to "set the mood" or whatever, why not turn to poetry? Have a character read a meaningful, relevant passage from Wordsworth or Keats. Or, if you REALLY REALLY need to have music (say in a bar scene), you can say, "A song called ___ came on. It reminded her a little of that Blake poem she had memorized back in high school. How did it go?" At least poetry is self-contained, and if you stick to old stuff you don't have to get the rights.

In general, anything that takes out OUTSIDE the novel is a no-no.

johnzakour · Jul 6, 2007

Stephania said:
Okay, let me explain it this way.

What I have in mind in my outline in short, one scene is Mary's revenge in a way.

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

It's better than that but that's what I mean about using a song, like a backdrop? sort to speak? Bad idea?

That could work in a movie. In a book, not so much. Totally different parts of the brain process a song that you hear and one that you read.

Trust me, you lose a lot of a song when you simply read the words.

Plus, you're using somebody else's copy written words in your book.

maestrowork · Jul 6, 2007

Stephania said:
Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

Let me put it this way, bluntly: From your description, it could be just about ANY SONG about breaking up or hanging around or what might have been or yada yada yada. The song doesn't add to the scene - I personally don't know the song, and it doesn't affect me the same way it affects you or your character. For all I know, it could be a completely made up song with the lyrics:

"I wanna be around
touch you with my heart
fly with my and stay with me
don't make it so hard..."

You see what I mean.. they're words. There's no music to go with it. In the off chance your readers do know the actual song, they may get what you are trying to aim for. But chances are, your readers don't. Then it's probably better just be your own words to tell us "what exactly does it mean" to the character.

Again, this is not the same as a song in a movie soundtrack. With that, you have the actual melodies, arrangement, lyrics, and probably the interpretation of the singer to physically enhance the scene. In the movie medium, the "music" itself is extremely important to carry the mood, probably even more so than then words, especially if your characters are going to talk over them anyway.

Like I said, song are great to inspire the writer -- it probably means a whole lot to the writer. But it's not the same for the readers.

Songs in Novels

Sassy haircut

Sassy haircut

Knows notebooks can kill.

Back from self-exile land.

Five by Five

Sassy haircut

Sassy haircut

Fear the Death Ray

Different from the rest

Dangerous with a Keyboard

Dangerous with a Keyboard

Fear the Death Ray

Fear the Death Ray

Different from the rest

Plotting! Not Plodding!

my name is hannah

has finally arrived

Dangerous with a Keyboard

Fear the Death Ray