Not sure if this is the right place to post this...

[mr mistook]

I'm writing a chapter where the action takes place in Manhatten on the upper west side. The problem is, I've never been there. I've been researching the area, but can't seem to turn up the details I need to write these scenes.

I'm just wondering if there's anybody out here who is familiar with the upper west side?

This scene takes place in the spring, and I'm wondering about what types of trees are on the streets, and what colors they display? I also need to know about pedestrian traffic - are there times of day when certain streets are relatively quiet? I've got a character walking alone down a side street at 2PM and she's the only one on the block. Is that realistic?

Lastly, is it reasonable to assume there are breezeways between apartment buildings, and alleys going through the middle of the blocks? Are fire-escapes common? I've got a second character who is running between and behind buildings to get away from the police, and climbing fire escapes. Is that even possible on Manhattan's UWS?

Like I said, I'm not sure where to post this, or if this is even something that belongs on any thread. :shrug

[evanaharris]

Nothing will replace the real thing. You could read a thousand texts on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and still not nail it.

My advice is to either go there yourself, if it's within a decent drive ( I suspect it isn't, or you might've already done it/been there already and this wouldn't be an issue.) Or find a convincing analogue. Another big city, like Chicago, or whatever, or whereever you've been. Or, ignore reality altogether, get a few street names right, then fudge the rest. Only people in Manhattan can tell the difference, and, really, they're not that big a slice of America.

Or, just set it in a different place, if it's possible, a place you know, or an entirely fictional place.

[mr mistook]

Thank you, evanharris - board fanatic!

Sadly, a trip to Manhatten isn't within my means. I really wish I could go there, and spend a nice month, just scrutinizing the place. I'm pretty familiar with Chicago neighborhoods, which I guess are similar. I'm also familiar with the typical Hollywood renderings of Manhattan.

I will have to fudge it, in the end. There's no doubt. I'm just trying to get the sharpest point on my pencil before I sketch in these little details. I want to do it something like justice. I know I'll never fool a true Manhattenite, but I like to imagine that if they read the chapter, they'd think, "Well, he made a good go of it, anyway."

I wish I could place it in some fictional place like "Gothom City" but the way the whole plot works, I'm forced to put my lead character squarely in Manhattan's upper west side.

[reph]

"fudge the rest..."

I have to disagree. At least, it isn't safe to make up anything about a real place. If you get it wrong, readers will notice. You can fudge in the sense of being so vague about a detail that your description couldn't be false, if your story will accommodate that degree of vagueness.

Remember Dustin Hoffman driving the wrong way on the upper deck of the San Francisco–Oakland Bay Bridge in The Graduate? Yeah, me too. Furthermore, in the same film, he supposedly went to the Berkeley zoo. Well, Berkeley has no zoo (quiet out there, please, this isn't about metaphors). That scene was shot at the San Francisco zoo. You can see the old Monkey Island in it, since demolished. Here's another one: American Splendor shows kids trick-or-treating in broad daylight.

People notice these things.

[Writing Again]

Yeah, but.

A certain town was claimed to have "the worst prison in the U.S.A."

A real town.

The town, upset, attempted to sue the movie company.

They failed.

The reason was this:

Seen as the town did NOT have a prison, the work was therefore fiction -- They therefore could not sue the movie for saying they had the worst of something they did not have at all.

Now had the town had a prison, not just a county jail, then they could have successfully sued for slander, libel, whatever it is when a movie makes a false claim.

There is something to be said for pure, undiluted fiction.

[Risseybug]

And many authors take liberties with actual places, and they include a forward with the book to that end. Saying "such and such is a real place, but some of the geography/names have been changed for this work of fiction." I've seen it in several books. Stephen King does it alot, since most of is books are set in various real towns in Maine.

[SRHowen]

Do a google search for photos of the place you want to write about--yes you can read, but a good photo layout of the place is a great help in describing it. You could cal the local police to ask about foot traffic or car traffic in the area at that time of day as well.

Look up local rental companies, they will be able to tell you a lot about the area if you are willing to scrape off the sugar coating.

Shawn

[veingloree]

Perhaps somebody can suggest a recent movie filmed there?

[SRHowen]

one good picture of apartment building- (http://www.mykreeve.net/east_coast_usa/new_york_city/upper_east_side/)

Google has a lot more do a search for Manhattan upper east side, and select images.

Shawn

[macalicious731]

HBO's Sex and the City takes place in Manhattan.

[vstrauss]

My mom lives on the Upper West Side, in the west 70's. It's a very varied area. Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues are solidly commercial, West End Avenue and Central Park West are mostly residential. Broadway, which is commercial all the way up its length, cuts diagonally through the area. The cross-streets are a mix of brownstones, massive apartment buildings (some older, some modern), and other kinds of buildings, such as schools and churches and parking garages, with little shops tucked in here and there. There are also developments, such as Lincoln Towers (a complex of high-rise apartments off West End Avenue) and the huge Trump residential complex by the Hudson River.

There are fire escapes, but in many cases they're at the backs of the buildings where you can't see or get to them.

Forget about alleys. The buildings are shoulder to shoulder--no breaks. The only way to get behind a building is to get inside it and go out the back, which would probably require going through someone's apartment.

Some of the solidly residential cross streets that are mostly brownstones, especially the ones that run off West End Avenue, are quiet, and it's plausible that you could be on one of them at 2:00pm and be the only one on the block.

Cities tend to plant certain types of trees--generally trees that grow rapidly and that are drought- and pollution-resistant. Bradford pears are popular--they make a torch-shaped cloud of white blossom in early spring. In May you might see flowering crabapple trees in various shades of pink. There are also blocks where there are no trees.

Get a map of Manhattan so you can see where everything is. Do a Google Image search for "Upper West Side". For instance, here's a fairly typical residential cross street: www.alovelyworld.com/webu...r/ny23.htm (http://www.alovelyworld.com/webusa/htmfr/ny23.htm) . You should be able to wing it from there.

- Victoria

[allion]

Also try Google for "manhattan webcams."

The visuals may help with the description part of it.

You will also get a good idea of what traffic is like during the day, night, whenever.

Hope it helps!

[James D Macdonald]

How important is it that the story take place in Manhattan? Why not set it someplace you're familiar with?

(Note: if you travel to Manhattan for research, it's deductable (check with your accountant).)

[Shadow Ferret]

On a side note, I've always wondered when i read a work of fiction and it takes place in a real place, just how real the writer's details are. I mean, if I went to said street in said city would I find that Chinese Restaurant he just described? Or would I find a bookstore or whatever it is that is described.

My question, I guess, just how real are the details in "fiction" and just how real do they really need to be? Does that crack in the street the hero trips on really have to exist or do I have a little leyway to make things up?

Coinicidently, this is why I write fantasy. lol

[gp101]

Agree with those who say not to fudge it. Considering most big publishers/editors/agents live or work in New York, they'll pick out the fudge right away (kind of a nasty visual).

I spent a day in Manhattan and got details I would've never learned about any other way. Then again, my character only needed to be there a day, so the POV description was that of a visitor, not a native, but still fairly detailed.

If your story isn't totally dependent on NYC, visit the nearest metropolitan area near you and base the story there.

Good luck.

[Writing Again]

I love to read, watch, listen to, interviews with writers on their working habits.

Robert Ludlum is very precise. He will study the picture of a well known public place in a state or country he has never been: even making sure the picture is taken at the time of year his story takes place. If he says a spy hid behind a bush in the middle of winter he does not want the bush to be one that loses its foliage in winter time.

What you don't want to do is to have anything bad happen on an identifiable street, ally, or in an identifiable building, place of business, etc.

Someone might take offense to the idea that your story has a knifing on their street where they live.

You can be sued if you make someone an object of scorn, ridicule, contempt, etc. If they believe you wrote about their street in derisive terms and other neighborhoods or streets now look down on them with contempt -- They may have a suit.

I've read Dean Koontz with an eye to how he handles this.

He will name a main street, give a good general description of it, then have the person "turn off the main street" and from there on where the story takes place in relation to the main street is very unclear.

My intention, in a similar writing situation, is to follow his example.

To sum up: If anything bad happens in your story, have it happen in either a very public place or an unidentifiable place.

Not being a lawyer I can't say this will protect you completely, but from what I've learned it will go a long way in the right direction.

[mr mistook]

Wow! Thanks to everybody for all the good advice... especially Vstrauss. V, I'm going to cut and paste your post into my "Upper West Side" file which has some maps and photos that I googled today. Webcams was another great idea.

I have a friend from another MB who lives in New Jersey and I wrote her with the same questions. Turns out she's very familiar with the neighborhood. More importantly, she knew it as it was in 1994, which is when this story takes place. Her comments are pending, but I'm sure they will help tremendously.

-------------------------------

Uncle Jim asked:
How important is it that the story take place in Manhattan? Why not set it someplace you're familiar with?

Most of the story is set in a town I'm very familiar with - Aurora, IL - a failed city (as opposed to a small town). There's a love affair in the offing between a bum from this town and a successful woman from New York (the symbol of success). The contrast is critical to the plot. As the story goes, Aurora is under a "loser curse" so powerful that even celebrities become obscure losers when they enter it's borders, so it becomes a sort of 'tourist trap' for famous people looking to get away from their fame for a few days.

-------------------------------

To respond to the questions about whether or not it's really necessary to nail the details, I'll just say that I like the challenge that reality brings to fiction. I guess I'm like a pathological liar in that sense... wanting the illusion to be water-tight.

According to Vstrauss... my character doesn't have the luxury of running between buildings, for example. So the challenge is to stage the chase around the facts. I may even have my P.I. complain, "Isn't there any ALLEYS in this damn town? Seemed like in the Spidey comics, it was nothing but alleys and steel trash cans!"

I could have her burst straight through somebody's living-room. :grin

[mr mistook]

To sum up: If anything bad happens in your story, have it happen in either a very public place or an unidentifiable place.


Thanks, W.A.!

That's something I'll have to seriously consider. There is a sniper crouching on this street, but it's made very clear in the text that he's a hired assassin from out of town. He fails in his attempt in a fairly comical way, and is instantly punished by my P.I. character who is also from out of town. Further, the local reaction to the ruckus is one of shock because such commotion is not by any means common. Further, further... this all takes place ten years ago.

Hopefully I'll be safe, but the sniper does die in his struggle with the P.I.

[SRHowen]

One of my novels starts out in a park in the city where I spent part of my childhood. I have some details very precise, even the location of a bench on the shore of the lake.

But I used the past name of a restaurant, and made the park hot-dog stand into a different sort of fast food place.

Other than that, the fountain in the park, the lake shore, the street, even the foot bridge are in the exact places they belong.

I didn't want trouble with the business's there so that's why I used different names for them.

Shawn

[mr mistook]

What city was that, SRH? When you mention the lake shore, I think Chicago.

[vstrauss]

>>I could have her burst straight through somebody's living-room.<<

Forgot to mention--all residential buildings are locked and buzzered. You can't even get into the lobby unless someone buzzes you in.

- Victoria

[SFEley]

Risseybug wrote:
And many authors take liberties with actual places, and they include a forward with the book to that end. Saying "such and such is a real place, but some of the geography/names have been changed for this work of fiction." I've seen it in several books. Stephen King does it alot, since most of is books are set in various real towns in Maine.

Actually, the books you're likely thinking of are set in various fake towns in Maine. There never was a Castle Rock, or a Derry, or a Jerusalem's Lot. Since he has a tendency to blow up or burn down his towns, that's probably just as well.

The only time I can remember him saying "I've fudged the geography of this city" was in The Waste Lands, and that's primarily because he made some mistakes in an earlier book. In The Drawing of the Three, he has Eddie Dean growing up in a particular neighborhood in Brooklyn. In reality, this neighborhood was in the Bronx. He decided to run with it, and much later, this discrepancy becomes part of the story. (That subplot annoyed the crap out of me, BTW, but there you go.)

[SRHowen]

The Park is Lake Side Park in Fond du Lac, WI. The Lake is Lake Sheboygan.

I used the name a restaurant that has since shut down and another that has since been torn down, and the kiosk is no longer in operation. So if a person reads the novel and knows the area they would assume that the character lives there about 15 years ago. Which is fine, since it's time travel story anyway.

Shawn

[katdad]

Your question should be this: Why am I setting a story in an unfamiliar area?

In other words, why choose Manhattan? Why not "any city"? Is there some specific event in your book that requires it be set in New York?

Frankly, I recommend you avoid creating a precise locale that you can't accurately describe from personal experience.

[katdad]

>>My question, I guess, just how real are the details in "fiction" and just how real do they really need to be?<<

My mystery novels are based in Houston and Austin. I try to create an accurate picture of the area, giving the reader a glimpse into the environment. Some restaurants, bars, and other places in my books are real, some are composites of real places, and others are fictional but still make sense within the general context.

In other words, I don't have someone going mountain climbing or snow skiing in Houston. But there is a fair running commentary on the heat & humidity.

[katdad]

>>I've read Dean Koontz with an eye to how he handles this.
He will name a main street, give a good general description of it, then have the person "turn off the main street" and from there on where the story takes place in relation to the main street is very unclear. <<

Interesting post.

I do the same in my Houston-based novels. I have my protag living a few blocks off Heights Boulevard (a real place) but I never say which actual street he's on.

I also created an entirely ficticious suburban township. I wanted a place that was an open sewer, police on the take, wide open & corrupt. So I made up this small township "Mid City, Texas" which is between Deer Park and Pasadena (both real cities) when in fact these two real cities are adjacent.

It's fun being a writer. You can also kill off some old rude girlfriend in a gruesome or unflattering manner.

[mr mistook]

"Forgot to mention--all residential buildings are locked and buzzered. You can't even get into the lobby unless someone buzzes you in."


AHA! Well, I suppose the sniper would naturally shoot from the roof in such a place, and so the P.I. would have followed him to the rooftop. Rooftop chase scene with the cops follows... people go up and down fire escapes... back door left ajar by careless resident provides access through building...

There's always options.

To answer Katdad - I think this really must take place in Manhattan. It's only one chapter, mind you. If I were writing an entire story set in Manhattan that would be ridiculous.

Again, the way the story works, the whole point of mentioning this city is because it's the biggest city in the country. I'm drawing a contrast between the most richly blessed city in the nation, and the most awfully cursed, and there's a love affair between a woman from one and a man from the other.

I really think that in this case, if I were to invent the fictional "Giga City", the readers would take it as a cop-out on my part. It would be obvious I was talking about Manhatten, and obvious that i didn't know squat about the place.

Hehe... the more I try to describe this story, the more bizarre and convoluted it sounds even to me. All I can say is "trust me". I've got to get this thing out of my system, even if it never gets published, but while I'm writing it, I'm going to do my level best to make it good.

[Summonere]

mr mistook:

Poppy Z. Brite wrote a story called "Calcutta, Lord of Nerves." It was set in Calcutta, India. She'd never been there. People who had lived or visited or grew up there told her what a good job she'd done evoking the city in words.

So it can be done, writing convincingly about places to which you've never been.