Tense...

[L'Oiseau Noir]

So it seems I have problem with tenses, POVs, and so on. Would anybody care to explain these rules clearly enough for an idiot to understand? Omni third, omni this, omni that... AGGHH! I'm ready to rip my hair out--please, help this moron with her horrendous writing skills!

[reenkam]

I'll try...

Point of View

First Person: When a story is told from an "I" point of view, with narrative being "I did this, I did that." There's still dialogue and everything, it's just that the narrator is also a character. You only get to know the internal thoughts of the one character...unless they're telepathic, I guess.

Second Person: People don't really use this anymore...but it's the "you" point of view. As in, "You do this, you do that." The only examples I know of are those Choose Your Own Adventure books. In this one, the thoughts and feelings are given to the reader.

Third Person, Limited: This is kind of like first person in that you only get the thoughts and feelings of one character (unless they're telepathic). Limited uses "he" and "she". This doesn't mean you can't use "I". You'd use it in dialogue, though, while exposition and narrative would be "he" and "she".

Third Person, Omniscent: This is kind of a "god" point of view where the reader can find out the thoughts of lots of different characters and can see all the characters and even see scenes that no other characters can see. It's the most open of the POVs. Once again, "he" and "she" are used in the narrative paragraphs.

Third Person, Objective: This is an unusually POV, I think. I haven't read any book using it, though I know there are some. This is what's used in an academic essay or newspaper article that's not supposed to have any opinion. The narrator will tell only exactly what happens and what is said. So there are no thoughts and feelings involved. This is the least personal of the POVs, I'd say.

Tenses

Past: Past tense is...well, in the past. Using the past tense of verbs. I went. He did it. She ate. They were going. We had read. That type of thing.

Present: This is present as in I go, he does it, she eats, they are going, we have read (that's present perfect I believe, which still counts as present, I think).

Future: I've never heard of a book written in future tense, but there might be one. This is I will go, he will do it, she will eat, they will be going, we will read. There's also will have read and sentences like that. Basically, future = will.

When you write a book you generally pick a POV and pick a tense...though you can switch around. Though you never change tense in the same section of narrative, really. Unless, of course, it's first person present and they tell a story in past tense... That's a little confusing. You might want to try writing a few short stories using one tense and one POV to get a hang of them and then branch out from there.

I hope I helped you some. If my explaination was terrible just tell me and I'll try again :)

[Death Wizard]

I don't mean to sound preachy or condescending, but there are no simple answers to your questions. Understanding these things to their fullest takes a lot of study. I would recommend spending at least a month or two reading as many books "on writing" as you can. After that, you'll be able to come back and tell the rest of us how to do it!

[L'Oiseau Noir]

I'll try...

Point of View

First Person: When a story is told from an "I" point of view, with narrative being "I did this, I did that." There's still dialogue and everything, it's just that the narrator is also a character. You only get to know the internal thoughts of the one character...unless they're telepathic, I guess.

Second Person: People don't really use this anymore...but it's the "you" point of view. As in, "You do this, you do that." The only examples I know of are those Choose Your Own Adventure books. In this one, the thoughts and feelings are given to the reader.

Third Person, Limited: This is kind of like first person in that you only get the thoughts and feelings of one character (unless they're telepathic). Limited uses "he" and "she". This doesn't mean you can't use "I". You'd use it in dialogue, though, while exposition and narrative would be "he" and "she".

Third Person, Omniscent: This is kind of a "god" point of view where the reader can find out the thoughts of lots of different characters and can see all the characters and even see scenes that no other characters can see. It's the most open of the POVs. Once again, "he" and "she" are used in the narrative paragraphs.

Third Person, Objective: This is an unusually POV, I think. I haven't read any book using it, though I know there are some. This is what's used in an academic essay or newspaper article that's not supposed to have any opinion. The narrator will tell only exactly what happens and what is said. So there are no thoughts and feelings involved. This is the least personal of the POVs, I'd say.

Tenses

Past: Past tense is...well, in the past. Using the past tense of verbs. I went. He did it. She ate. They were going. We had read. That type of thing.

Present: This is present as in I go, he does it, she eats, they are going, we have read (that's present perfect I believe, which still counts as present, I think).

Future: I've never heard of a book written in future tense, but there might be one. This is I will go, he will do it, she will eat, they will be going, we will read. There's also will have read and sentences like that. Basically, future = will.

When you write a book you generally pick a POV and pick a tense...though you can switch around. Though you never change tense in the same section of narrative, really. Unless, of course, it's first person present and they tell a story in past tense... That's a little confusing. You might want to try writing a few short stories using one tense and one POV to get a hang of them and then branch out from there.

I hope I helped you some. If my explaination was terrible just tell me and I'll try again :)

Thank you, that helped me a lot.

[FennelGiraffe]

...

Third Person, Limited: This is kind of like first person in that you only get the thoughts and feelings of one character (unless they're telepathic). Limited uses "he" and "she". This doesn't mean you can't use "I". You'd use it in dialogue, though, while exposition and narrative would be "he" and "she".

Third Person, Omniscent: This is kind of a "god" point of view where the reader can find out the thoughts of lots of different characters and can see all the characters and even see scenes that no other characters can see. It's the most open of the POVs. Once again, "he" and "she" are used in the narrative paragraphs.

Third Person, Objective: This is an unusually POV, I think. I haven't read any book using it, though I know there are some. This is what's used in an academic essay or newspaper article that's not supposed to have any opinion. The narrator will tell only exactly what happens and what is said. So there are no thoughts and feelings involved. This is the least personal of the POVs, I'd say.

...

Third Person, Multiple Limited: This is just like Third Person, Limited in that you only get the thoughts and feelings of one character at a time, and that you use "he" and "she" in narrative. However, at any scene or chapter break, the accessible thoughts and feelings can be switched from one character to another.

Some of us will debate the precise distinctions of the various types of third person, and some of us divide them up a little differently*. Whole books can, and have been, written about it. Don't be worried if you run into one of those debates. This list is enough to go on for all practical purposes.

*I don't know whether reenkam overlooked multiple third, considers it a subtype of limited third, or considers it a subtype of omniscient. I obviously think it's worth mentioning separately, although I've seen arguments for both of the other views. It doesn't really matter how we categorize it, though, as long as we know how to use it.

[Dawnstorm]

*I don't know whether reenkam overlooked multiple third, considers it a subtype of limited third, or considers it a subtype of omniscient. I obviously think it's worth mentioning separately, although I've seen arguments for both of the other views. It doesn't really matter how we categorize it, though, as long as we know how to use it.

In case anyone cares: I consider "multiple third" as a subtype of "limited third", and "limited third" as a subtype of "omniscient". All are different from "third objective". There. Terminology nit-pickers diversify. ;)

[reenkam]

When I wrote it I didn't even think of talking about multiple third...actually, I didn't even know there was a name for that. If someone had asked me I probably would have said it was limited and just happened to change between characters.

I'll add that to my mental library of info. Thanks FennelGiraffe :)

[FennelGiraffe]

Terminology nit-pickers diversify. ;)

LOL!

[Jamesaritchie]

[quote=reenkam;1448664]I'll try...

Point of View


Third Person, Objective: This is an unusually POV, I think. I haven't read any book using it, though I know there are some. This is what's used in an academic essay or newspaper article that's not supposed to have any opinion. The narrator will tell only exactly what happens and what is said. So there are no thoughts and feelings involved. This is the least personal of the POVs, I'd say.



/quote]

It's also used in fiction. Hemingway's Hills Like White Elephants is probably teh most famous example. It can be read here: http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~conreys/101files/Otherfolders/Hillslikewhitepg.html

The original intent of objective POV was to mimic the stage play where all the audience has to go on is what they see and hear. Today, of course, it also mimics the way many TV shows and movies must be viewed.

[maestrowork]

Screenplays are usually in third person objective/camera. Obviously. With the exception of V.O. which is basically dialogue.

[notpc]

It seems that I have a HUGE... problem with tense and POV. You say that a person has to study for a month to understand it. Well, I have all kinds of English books but I don't get very far because there examples are very simplistic or I just don't get it. Are there workbooks on just tense and POV that you would recommend?

[maestrowork]

It seems that I have a HUGE... problem with tense and POV. You say that a person has to study for a month to understand it. Well, I have all kinds of English books but I don't get very far because there examples are very simplistic or I just don't get it. Are there workbooks on just tense and POV that you would recommend?

Why don't you pick up some good novels and study them instead?

[BlueTexas]

It seems that I have a HUGE... problem with tense and POV. You say that a person has to study for a month to understand it. Well, I have all kinds of English books but I don't get very far because there examples are very simplistic or I just don't get it. Are there workbooks on just tense and POV that you would recommend?

I'd bet you're making it harder than it has to be without realizing it. (I know, cause I do this!) I'd try Grammar for Dummies - it's useful.

If it helps, the first sentence in your post quoted above is in first person. The second sentence is in second person, and all the rest are in first.

I know I didn't get tenses nearly as well in English until I learned to conjugate verbs in a second language. Then boom, it all made sense. PM me if you want some help.

[blacbird]

I know I didn't get tenses nearly as well in English until I learned to conjugate verbs in a second language. Then boom, it all made sense.

This is a very good point. I learned more about English grammar by taking four years of Spanish than I even did, cumulative, in any English classes.

caw

[notpc]

Yep I have the dummies book, the idiots book, Shunk? and White, .... about 25 books.

And reading good books, like Twain's, doesn't help me learn the rules just how to read.

I just need a list of workbooks. I have the "The Blue Book".

[BlueTexas]

This is a very good point. I learned more about English grammar by taking four years of Spanish than I even did, cumulative, in any English classes.

caw

They ought to teach first-language classes like they do second languages. I had no idea how English worked until I took French. No wonder why, here at least, ESL speakers know more about English than high school students.

[BlueTexas]

Yep I have the dummies book, the idiots book, Shunk? and White, .... about 25 books.

And reading good books, like Twain's, doesn't help me learn the rules just how to read.

I just need a list of workbooks. I have the "The Blue Book".

Strunk & White would just be confusing if you're having trouble with tenses, I think.

I'd like to second Maestro's suggestion to read more - modern - books. Twain doesn't use the language the same way we do now. Then dissect them using your workbooks. Might make more sense that way. If you've got 25 already, I don't know how much good more recco's are going to do you, because you probably already have the ones we'd recco.

[Jamesaritchie]

Well, third person limited is the most common POV, and first person is not far behind it.

Until you master other POV forms, stick with these. They're pretty simple if you remember that you can only write what the POV character sees, hears, smells, tastes, feels, thinks, believes, or knows.

And stick with past tense. It's pretty simple, and doesn't take long to master.

Third person limited is still just third person limited, no matter how many POV characters you have. You just use them one at a time.