Forgivable?

Zeroun didn't have such experiences from which to learn?

You could always just have "Zeroun didn't have such experiences."

I'm basically a Nazi about sentences ending in prepositions. This doesn't make my skin crawl, but I'm not real pleased about it.

If it's an action-based sequence I don't think I would stop to stare at the preposition. I don't know how agents/editors would feel about it, but I personally think that sometimes you just have to end in a prep. if that's the only way it happens to work well. I don't use that rule for academic writing, or anything like that, but I think in the middle of an action-sequence in fiction it'd be okay...

but that's just mho

What if you completely revise the sentence? Something like 'Zeroun - Zeroun knew nothing about fighting.'

Now, I'm enamoured of hyphens myself, so take that into consideration. I think the main problem with the sentence isn't the hanging preposition, but the fact that it seems out of place in an action-packed scene.

I like that a lot more. The only thing is, I'd make the first ellipse a period, but that may just be me.

althrasher said:

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?

The two ignored her. Waren fought with a fierce intensity, with skills learned from living on the streets. Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from. Alexia hoped he’d be alright...someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.

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I will say if you hadn't bolded the 'from', I would never have thought there was a problem. Personally, I think your sentence is okay.

You know what Churchill said about not ending a sentence with a preposition? "That's something i will not up with put." Relax. Sometimes a sentence ends with a preposition. And sometimes you start a sentence with a conjunction. The grammar nazis won't come and take you away. I think.

Is "though shalt not end sentences with a preposition" really a rule? I always thought it was something junior high teachers made you memorize, but was otherwise basically pointless. I mean, is something like, "Shelly turned the music on" really incorrect?

nevada said:

The grammar nazis won't come and take you away. I think.

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I hope not, or I'm screwed.

Sometimes that nasty prep just works best...don't stress over it.

maddythemad said:

Is "though shalt not end sentences with a preposition" really a rule? I always thought it was something junior high teachers made you memorize, but was otherwise basically pointless. I mean, is something like, "Shelly turned the music on" really incorrect?

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Well, I'd say "Shelly turned on the music." But that's just me...

But I don't mind sentences ending in prepositions, really. Unless it's really, really unnecessary. Like in "Where'd you go to?" The "to" isn't needed at all...that's when I get annoyed.

I agree that sometimes the twists and turns necessary to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition simply aren't worthwhile. If you can avoid it, do; if not, don't sweat it.

I'm writing in first-person right now, and I am finding that I am doing this a little more often, simply because it's more important to retain a conversational rhythm to the MC's speech.

I'll agree that avoiding the preposition can make for terrible structures. But the reason not to end sentences with prepositions is, at least from my perspective, that most structures put the emphasis of the sentence at the end.

So, where possible, you want to avoid wasting that emphasis on meaningless words like prepositions.

althrasher said:

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?

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Don't be crazy. For f**ks sake. Writing well is about writing well. It's not about writing gramatically correct.

Leave that to teachers.

nevada said:

You know what Churchill said about not ending a sentence with a preposition? "That's something i will not up with put." Relax.

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He said, "That is something up with which I will not put."

That is gramatically correct. It is also a terrible sentence.

Like everything else, it's not an absolute rule. In some instances ending with a preposition can be fine, in fact, some regional varieties of English prefer it.

Don't get stuck on a little rule.

Who is your POV character in this scene? In four sentences, it seems you are in three heads, or at least you have a narrator who knows the thoughts and past actions of the three characters. Is this voice consistent throughout the entire story?

In my opinion, sentence flow is more important than this prep rule. I wouldn't make it a habit, but no one is going to reject your manuscript because you ended 1 or 2 sentences with a prep. However, they might reject it if you reword all your sentences in the more formal way that saves the prep at the end nightmare but makes it sound like you came straight from a BBC news broadcast.

althrasher said:

Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from.

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You should probably have popped this question into the grammar section where folks who know grammar hang out.


1) The mantra your High School teacher chanted about not ending sentences with prepositions is nonsense. Careful English speakers end sentences with prepostions all the time. Have done for centuries.

This is another of the weirdly inappropriate rules Latin scholars tried to foist onto English in the late Nineteenth century. Like not splitting infinities.

Forget it and move on with your life.


2) You aren't ending the sentence with a preposition.
I'd call 'draw from' a phrasal verb.
(In this usage where it is figurative. Not when it is used literally.)
A transitive one, which is why you found it confusing.

Other examples of phrasal verbs are: cop out, come across, mess up, take off (as in an airplane,) take after (resemble,) get over, count on, look at, listen to, give up, get away with, put up with, look into (investigate.)

So. It is perfectly correct to say --
"The derigible took off."
The predicate is the whole phrase, 'took off'.
and 'off' is part of the verb. It is not a prepostion.


Phrasal verbs can be spotted because they don't like to be split apart.

Consider intervening words placed between an ordinary verb and the following preposition.

I tinkered endlessly with the ensuing madness.
George put the severed head up in the attic.
Marian gave pink tickets to all the expensive cars.


Compare this with words placed in the middle of a phrasal verb.

Jeremy copped in a cowardly fashion out.
The Mole got with a light sentence off.
I have a number of sources to draw engagingly from for inspiration.
Cyrus hung with the other mavens out, in the grammar section.


Any grammar book will give you the skinny on this.

Wow, great post job. I always kind of wondered about those kinds of verbs and how stuff like that was supposed to be handled, but I usually just ignored it.

Great info!