Why do Screenplay rules vary so much?

[DanielD]

I have read that, Action(descriptive passages) should be kept to around three,four lines approx.
Also,that excessive dialogue is equally frowned upon.
Yet, the more Screenplays I read,the more I find with huge chunks of Action which, have not been broken down to smaller segments,and the dialogue seems to be similarly long.
The Action lines I''m refering to, are not the ones after the slug lines which set up the scenes.
These particular Action lines, are placed between dialogue passages.
Admittedly, some of the instances I'm refering to are from older screenplays,though I have seen this being done in more recent Screenplays, also.
So, when it comes to action and dialogue, how much is too much?
Daniel.

[dpaterso]

Pro screenwriters can write whatever they like if they're writing on assignment. Whoever hired them knows they will deliver the goods.

Unsold, unproven non-pro spec screenwriters must write to impress. Presentation is important. Whatever you can do to give the script reader an easy read, do it. "Too much black," i.e. big chunky hard-to-read action blocks, is frowned upon.

I'd stick with the maximum 3-4 lines rule of thumb, for action and dialogue. If you need to run over, that's OK. But go back and read it out loud and see if there's anything you can shrink, even if it's just a word or two. Every little helps.

The above is just my humble opinion, not gospel.

-Derek

[DanielD]

Many thanks Dpat.
Those pesky pro Screenwriters.
How dare they blaze a trail to hollywood,then have one of their assistants go back and pick up the breadcrumbs,thus covering their tracks.
I have heard how established Screenwriters are given greater freedom when it comes to format,structure ect.
Though, when you put the required method(what we are expected to follow), up against the Carte blanche method(what established writers are permitted),they could be deemed as totally different forms altogether.
One is very constricted and based on Economy, the other allows ample leeway for getting the overall story across.
I did jump the gun a little, as some of the Screenplays I've been reading were Action Movies,this probably explains partly the excessively long Action passages.
As would heavy dialogue, be more common in drama's.
To be honest, I prefer the more open method used by the established writers.
Though, I am warming to the Less is best method(required method for non pro's).
I rather like going through an Action passage,each time removing anything that's not really adding to the story.
I feel that having this three to four line rule though stifling,actually helps in creating a more tighter Screenplay.
Though,to make life easier, I've set up a posse to track down the assistant who took the Breadcrumbs.
Daniel.

[Plot Device]

I've read about what is now being called "writing vertically."

http://twoadverbs.blogspot.com/2006/05/white-devil.html

[dpaterso]

We discussed Vertical Writing (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59121) back in March, I think...

-Derek

[Joe270]

One point about long dialogue passages. . .long speaches can lead to numerous takes because of small slips of the toungue. This is costly. Hence, the money people don't like long speeches.

Watch Stephen Braccho's stuff, ensemble cast throwing out one line at a time. (I personally don't like this style, smacks of 'telling', but it is successful.) Many actors only learn their lines for the day that morning, or even just prior to filming a scene. Long passages are hard to memorize.

[NikeeGoddess]

they're not rules. there are no rules. only guidelines.

on those action lines - there are times when you have a long scene with no dialogue. break up the action lines according to camera angles/POV. that's the passive way of giving camera directions that no one complains about.

same goes for long bits of dialogue -- break it up with action shots and character reaction shots which can be verbal or non-verbal.

and don't be redundant. no characters should be repeating what has already been said or known by the audience. and by starting a scene late in the conversation the audience can assume the characters already know what has been said.

[dpaterso]

Interesting theory Joe, worth discussing.

After the first Pirates of the Caribbean came out, I saw message board discussions that reckoned one of the reasons Geoffrey Rush signed up to play Barbossa was because of the meaty dialogue his character got. Take a peek at the script and do a search on Muerta which will take you to Barbossa's big dialogue scene with Elizabeth:
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Pirates-of-the-Caribbean.html

Also take a peek at Michael Douglas's huge speech near the end of The American President, and try to convince me he didn't relish every word of that scene. Do a search on energy which takes you to the juicy bit:
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/American-President,-The.html

Sure, maybe these are exceptions to the rule (of thumb) -- there are always exceptions. But I'm also thinking about what Jack Nicholson said, if a script has three juicy scenes for him then he'll look at it (paraphrasing).

-Derek

[Joe Calabrese]

Nikee and Dpat are right. there are no rules (for pro's atleast)... Why? No one can agree on them, there's no governing body voting of the mechanics of screenplays, but most readers in the biz know what they hate when they see it.

With that said... The reason you hear about rules against writers using VO, long action, long dialog, camera directions is because most new writers do not know how to use them effectively. You give a kid a gun and he's gonna shoot his foot off. You tell a new inexperienced writer to go ahead and use Voice Overs, you are gonna see a script that uses them because of convenience's sake or because the writer is too inexperienced or lazy to think of a truly original and compelling way to tell his or her story.

I'm not saying that ever new writer sucks and should never use a VO or long descriptive action or speeches, but I warn them that if they do so it better be for the right reasons-- to make your story unique, compelling and best told that way.

[Jamesaritchie]

All writing follows the same rule. You can do anything, if you do it well enough.

[dpaterso]

Thank you, Dalai Lama, for stopping by. :)

-Derek

[DanielD]

To Plot Device.
Great article.
It does highlight the wide variation in styles.
The Scott Silver( Playboy)sample, reminds me of something I think I seen over at Wordplay.
Though, that was a mock up example, not a sold Script.
I like what he says, " You never want your story to do battle with your writing style.They must work together."
I think at one time or another, I've dabbled with all the styles covered in the article, and probably a few others to boot.
Maybe this is a good thing, as eventually a Screenwriter will develope a Writing style, which suits the Manner of his/her Storytelling.

To Joe270.
That's a good point.
Cutting the number of takes through streamlined dialogue.
Probably a blessing to some, a curse to others.
I have wondered how those lengthy dialogue passages are dealt with.
The set's crew, must be watching with fingers and toes crossed.

To Dpat.
Old Geoffrey did ramble on a bit there,though I think that's his cup of tea, so to speak.
I think his background is stage,so he'd relish healthy dialogue intakes.
I imagine many top notch Actors would be hoping for quality dialogue,lengthy or not.

To Nikeegoddess.
Very good advice.
Makes sense breaking up the passages, so as not to clutter up the page,whilst keeping the Story flowing.

To Joe calabrese.
Nicely put.
I have done just that.
Using the little gadgets of Screenwriting(VO'S,ect,), whilst a well structured story was left to the wayside.
Screenwriting is definately an ongoing process.
I Imagine, by the time someone is close to perfecting the proper format and structure,it will have evolved to something quite different.

To Jamesaritchie.
I cannot argue with that.

Many thanks to everyone.
Daniel.

[scripter1]

as our example, there are Loads of broken "rules" in those scripts.
AND as Barbosa so elequently said (and Ted and Terry must have just loved being channeled through him) "They aren't really rules, more like guidlines. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl."

You must first know the rules, AND UNDERSTAND them, before you can break them. Once you do, then you only have to do things effectively.
If it works, do it.

Using Pirates as an example again, Johny Depp kept flubbing his lines when discussing the Black Pearl with the two comedic British guards.
I believe his exact words were. "I hate this bloody line. Where are the writers? I'm going to kill them."

Now, consider your own self.
When someone is talking to you, at the start you give them your FULL attention. You are involved, you want to know. Then, maybe they start bratteling on, losing track of the point. So, you get bored, you look away, start going "Uh huh, yeah, yeah, um huh, yeah." .... and they've lost you.
Pretty soon they could get to something interesting but you're all ready gone.

Same thing with scripts (and often long dialogs.)
They have GOT to be constantly going SOMEWHERE. And most importantly that somewhere needs to be COOL, AWESOME, DRAMATIC, DIFFERENT.

Believing that you need to stick to ONLY three or four lines in action and dialog drives you to write the words that will be the most interesting.
You start to think, "I have to write this better. I have to make it stronger."

One more point.
Those of us (all most all of us here) are writing for the reader. We HAVE to give them a nice easy, beautiful, clear, FAST read that just gives them warm fuzzies. Our script needs to look and feel, and read better then all the others they read that week.
That means short, fast paced, paragraphs that draw the eyes down the page.

Hope that helps.

[Joe270]

That means short, fast paced, paragraphs that draw the eyes down the page.

This is a better way to state what I hoped to convey.

While I agree with Dpat on the meaty passages for some actors, I think this is dangerous territory for a spec writer. No actors are cast when prodcos evaluate your submission, so they are only reading (barely scanning) our work.

I guess I'm saying KISS, keep it simple, stupid, because that's what they want. When your work is bought and paid for, and cast, then give the actors the challenging passages they seek.

For what it might be worth.

[scripter1]

It is a very delicate line.
On one side if you have a big block of dialog it justlooks scary.
A reader may instinctively groan and possibly skim over it, not catching it's power.

On the other side, if you have ENTHRALLED the reader from the beginning, and they KNOW the story and writing is great, THEN they will WANT to read every word and will see that the long dialog is meaty and great fodder for a great actor.

So, you can't have one or two really rocking scenes or bunches of dialog in an otherwise bland script.

The spec writer (US) have nothing going for them and EVERYTHING stacked against us.

So again, the rules aren't really rules, they are just tried and true conditions that help the spec writer overcome the reader barrier.

[NikeeGoddess]

on those meaty dialogue scenes (the same goes for tough physcial action scenes) - most scripts are rewritten after their leading actors are cast. most A-list actors feel the need to have their own input into a character and therefore demand it. one of the best examples is Total Recall (with a record breaking 42 paid rewrites) where Richard Dreyfuss was first cast with a douty Amy Irving wife, and his character was an accountant. after several rewrites and cast changes Arnold Swartzenegger was cast and of course they had to rewrite it again for the actor - the character was now a construction worker with a sexy, young Sharon Stone wife.

knowing how this works makes you understand why you cannot assume the final product will be what you write. to market your spec to producers, managers and agents you have to write for the production mass appeal and not the individual actor appeal. if you market to an actor hoping to get them onboard prior then by all means write it for him/her for the sell.

[jonpiper]

It is a very delicate line.
On one side if you have a big block of dialog it justlooks scary.
A reader may instinctively groan and possibly skim over it, not catching it's power.

On the other side, if you have ENTHRALLED the reader from the beginning, and they KNOW the story and writing is great, THEN they will WANT to read every word and will see that the long dialog is meaty and great fodder for a great actor.



So, if your spec script MUST have big blocks of dialogue and action, keep then in the second half of the script, after you've enthralled the reader with your tight writing and story in the first half.:)

[scripter1]

Wait! I mean No!

What I mean is write well and strong with great things happening from the very start.

Open with a powerful image, with powerful words.
Every word should count. Don't ramble. Get into the scene and out of the scene. Keep the story rushing forward, like a rock pulling lose from a mountain. Once it gets going NOTHING can stop it and it builds into a mighty avalanche.

Carry that over the entire script.

[jonpiper]

I, think you're right. No sense in screwing up a script that begins well by slowing it down at the end.

[DanielD]

Many thanks everyone.
Great advice,as usual.
So going from your responses,also the many articles I've read,it seems to be paramount to keep the Action/Dialogue passenges short and sweet(so to speak).
Only including, what is essential in getting the story across,(Visually,thematically).
Your Pearls of wisdom have been greatly appreciated.
Daniel.

[scripter1]

That will be 5O bucks.

Seriously.




Uh no, seriously.

[DanielD]

To Scripter1.
Only fifty!!!
I was about to cough up some big time mullah.
Though, how can I throw big bickies to those who shortchange themselves.
Just joking.
Daniel.

[dpaterso]

For fifty bucks I'd expect a three-course meal and a clean motel room.

-Derek

[scripter1]

talking pearls D.

This is is why I'm not in the jewlery buisness.

50 bucks is just easy to say. It's a good basic number.
Though I guess 1 G has a nice sound to it as well.

[zeprosnepsid]

This thread has been sort of neatly wrapped up but I'm going to throw in my 2 cents anyway. On guidelines that is. The thing about guidelines is that you don't have to follow them and of course if your script i genius it may not matter. But the guidelines exist to help your script. If you child is a prodigy, they'll probably be ok no matter what, but you want to give them all the best opportunities.

I think someone should come up with a point system or something. Inciting Incident in first 10 pages? plus 20 points. 10 misspellings in first 10 pages? minus 20 points. Voice over? Minus 30 points. Most lines of action under four lines? Plus 30 points. And on and on....

[scripter1]

trying to break in HAS GOT to give himself as many breaks as possible.

If a reader, or anyone else they hand the script to for selling purposes opens it up and sees A BIG block of writing whether that be dialog or action they are going to HATE your script.

They aren't going to bother to think that maybe, maybe, maybe it's brilliant. That first impression of being a heavey read, a long read, is going to stick in their mind.

Something I notice with some heavier scripts is that the writing doesn't always translate to film time. It might be character building, or set up, or establishing tone.