"One for the drawer"

[Gala]

What is your criteria for deciding you have reached the end of working on a novel? The decision means you will not revise it further towards publication.

I'm particularly curious in regards to novels that are complete, as opposed to having an idea you fleshed out a bit and decided it did not go anywhere.

And have you gone back to a novel you filed away, a year or two later and then spiffed it up for publication?

I've always been curious about this and it is difficult to learn why in author interviews. They tend to be vague in answering, as is their right.

I don't wonder there may be a few hundred novels languishing in the dust, perhaps publishable but for personal reasons the author moved on.

Thanks.

[Jamesaritchie]

What is your criteria for deciding you have reached the end of working on a novel? The decision means you will not revise it further towards publication.

I write the first draft, let it set for a time, usually four weeks, then go through and do the second draft. At this point it's ready for submission.

There's not much point in revising a novel endlessly. As often as not, a revision doesn't make things better, it just makes things different.

If there's a problem, my agent or editor will let me know, and then I'll fix it.

I'm a firm believer in Heinlein's Rules.

HEINLEIN'S RULES FOR WRITING

1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order.
4. You must put the work on the market.
5. You must keep the work on the market until it is sold.

The best explanation of these rules I've ever read can be found on Robert J. Sawyer's website. I think every writer should go to his site and read the explanation of the rules.
www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm (http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm)

[Gala]

Thanks James.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I write the first draft, let it set for a time, usually four weeks, then go through and do the second draft. At this point it's ready for submission.<hr></blockquote>
So you're saying you've never decided not to revise a novel, and you have published every novel you've written?

[Writing Again]

What is your criteria for deciding you have reached the end of working on a novel? The decision means you will not revise it further towards publication.

When I've decided it is the best I can write at the time and that each page says what I intended that page to say.

And have you gone back to a novel you filed away, a year or two later and then spiffed it up for publication?

Yes, but not usually. Partly depends on why I filed it away. The last novel I filed away that I need to go back to was written while my wife was very sick. Because I wrote the story sporadically, sometimes several months between writings, it developed some severe inconsistencies. I need to go back and literally rewrite the novel from scratch.

Maybe I'll deal with it, maybe I won't. I don't know.

[Jamesaritchie]

So you're saying you've never decided not to revise a novel, and you have published every novel you've written?

I've had one submitted novel go unpublished. Revising wouldn't have helped. It was bad start to finish, and I couldn't think of a way in the world to make it any better. Neither could my agent or my editor. Just a bad idea that I went with because the idea intrigued me.

And it isn't that I don't revise, it's that I've found two drafts are enough. I don't write all my novels in longhand, but I do start them in longhand, and at least get partway through before switching to the computer.

I really don;t mean this teh way it's going to sound, but I try not to write things that will need much in the way of revision. I don't write stories with the intention of totally rewriting and revising them later.

I know what a publishable story is, what story structure a publishable story requires. I know what good characters are, and I've always had a knack for writing good dialogue.

I had the first draft of one novel published.

This means I get something of an extra draft as I type the longhand into the computer. Then I let it sit. Then I fix anyting I see that's wrong. Most often, it's clunky sentences and weak dialogue. But whatever it is, I fix. Then I submit it.

There's really nothing at all unusual about this. I know writers who do a dozen drafts before submitting something, but their novels seem no better to me, and I know far more writers who get the job done with two drafts.

[Crusader]

If i'm reading Jamesaritchie's post correctly, then i daresay the method described therein is absolutely impossible for me.

Indeed, i would experience nothing less than a hysterical shrieking clawing fit, if ever it was possible for a first draft of my writing to be seen.

However, i should qualify my statement--i don't actually do "first drafts" in the first place.

Instead, i revise line-by-line while writing. By the time i complete a page, every paragraph has been revised several times: once in the first line; again for the second line; once more to make the first and second agree; once for the third line; once more to make all three agree; etc...

... and upon the end of the page, i turn right around and revise everything all over again to make it all agree.

Thus, it usually takes quite a bit of effort before i'm comfortable with putting the page down as "finished". Of course, after a day or so, i pick it up and see all the remaining errors, whereupon the cycle begins anew. [sigh]

* * *

So, to address the question of the thread: i don't feel a novel is ever really "finished." It's more like the writer simply reaches a sort of... satiation, as far as editing it.

Confusing? Well, think of how certain people's appetites can be eased with a dry cracker and water--while other people still feel vaguely hungry after an entire five-course meal.

In like fashion, the author writes and revises until they just feel "full". It's different for everyone, and not meaningfully comparable between authors.

[Jamesaritchie]

Instead, i revise line-by-line while writing. By the time i complete a page, every paragraph has been revised several times: once in the first line; again for the second line; once more to make the first and second agree; once for the third line; once more to make all three agree; etc...

... and upon the end of the page, i turn right around and revise everything all over again to make it all agree.

Dean Koontz claims to rewrite each page up to thirty times before moving to the next page, and it seems to work well for him.

I only seldom rewrite anyting as I go. If I do put down a sentence that just stinks, I will usually rewrite it before moving on, but I don't do this often.

For one thing, I have no idea what page twenty is supposed to say until I finish page last, so rewriting it too much doesn't seem to work for me.

If anything, with first drafts I rewrite in my head before I put a sentence down on paper. That's one of the advanatges to longhand, at least for me. It's slow.

Anyway, what's the old quotation? "Stories are never finished, they're abandoned. Learn to abandon yours." Wish I could remember who said it.

The whole deal of when a novel is "finished" really doesn't mean much. It not only varies from writer to writer, but from novel to novel. Even from page to page.

[Crusader]

@Jamesaritchie:

i was just reading that quote on a website. Uncanny coincidence. And i do agree, to a point.

As far as Mr. Koontz... he and i could probably find mutual amusement in comparing the number of rewrites we do per page. Thanks for using him as an example, i feel a bit less of a freak now.

However, i'm still mindboggled that you can go with a first or second draft. i mean, my command of prose is likely sufficient to do that, but it just would feel so completely wrong--i dread facing all the sentences i could have made closer to perfection, each one glaring resentfully from the sheet of paper or monitor...

Of course, as you say, there is a rewrite process going on in your mind. But i do the same thing in my mind, so even if i try to relate from that angle, i still get 404 errors.


For one thing, I have no idea what page twenty is supposed to say until I finish page last, so rewriting it too much doesn't seem to work for me.

Eh. We operate at polar ends of the spectrum; i generally can't write page 20 unless i have pages 1-19 sharply defined.

One exception is when i brainstorm scenes from out of the blue... i might have pages 35-50 drop into my lap, and of course they'll need to be connected to pages 1-19. And that prompts me to write 20-34 in a different way than if i'd never imagined 35-50.

Yet, that process still leads to revising pages 1-50 for overall continuity anyway.

Taking everything into account, you've led me to wonder for the hundredth time if i'm actually designed to be an editor, not a writer...

[Writing Again]

The whole deal of when a novel is "finished" really doesn't mean much. It not only varies from writer to writer, but from novel to novel. Even from page to page.

And that's the truth.

[maestrowork]

Never say never. And do works for you. Stephen King advises writers to do at least three drafts before sending out to betas. I can't imagine how many revisions between that and publications. I trust myself, but I also trust my editors -- I've been known to make mistakes or decisions. I do try to write a good enough first draft so that the subsequent revisions would be as painless as possible.

[Gala]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still curious about novels you decided not to publish.

Authors seem shy about saying they do.

[katdad]

Since I've been focusing on my series of private detective novels, I have temporarily shelved a couple of other novels. There's a Stephen King-ish supernatural thriller, and a police procedural murder mystery.

Thank heaven for computers and backups, so I can save stuff for later.

As for final revisions of "complete" novels, yes I often go back and tweak things a bit. Normally this is if I find a mechanical error ("there's always one more tpyo to be found").

But also I am amenable to changing an earlier novel in my series so that newer story lines are consistent. This is however rare.

[cwfgal]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And have you gone back to a novel you filed away, a year or two later and then spiffed it up for publication?<hr></blockquote>

I have one novel that I wrote, submitted, and then filed away after 50 rejections (hey I'm tenacious if nothing else). It was my first completed novel and I have not taken it back out to look at it. I sold the next three novels I wrote, two of those sales based on a synopsis only.

I have another novel that I finished a couple of years ago but never submitted. I'm not sure why--I think I just sensed that it needed something more but wasn't sure what. And by the time I was finished writing it, I had other projects I was excited about and wanted to start on. I recently resurrected that ms, gave it a read, and gained new enthusiasm for it. But rather than submitting it anywhere, I am giving it away. I am rewriting it a chapter at a time and sending it out in serial form in my newsletter.

Another novel, which I had a blast writing and couldn't bear to toss aside, I self-published after it was turned down by a handful of places. It is the first in an intended series and I still have hope of eventually finding a more traditional publishing home for it.

I have lots of ideas for future novels and I'm less inclined to revisit old projects than I am to start new ones. If I'm going to invest a lot of time and money in a vacation, I want to go somewhere I've never been before rather than revisit a place I've already been. I apply the same philosophy for the most part when it comes to investing my time in the writing of a novel.

Beth

[SRHowen]

How do I know I am done?

When I am ready to toss the thing of the roof, after dousing it with gasoline, and starting it on fire to be run over by a MAC truck and swept into the gutter.

I did two drafts of the novel that's being shopped right now. So I guess the real answer is---I am done when my agent says so.

I have a couple of novels sitting untouched, one from years ago. After a conversation with James D. I dug one out. And editor had, may years ago, said if I were interested in slitting it up they would take another look. (in the arrogance of new writer) I said, forget it.

So I dug it out. Overall the story is good. The writing sucks big time. Can i fix it? I have been tinkering with it, and hope to get my agents opinion soon.

Another one--I may as well burn it--no amount of tinkering will ever fix it.

Shawn

[Jamesaritchie]

Never say never. And do works for you. Stephen King advises writers to do at least three drafts before sending out to betas.

I thought King just did two drafts? In "On Writing" he says he does a draft with the door closed, lets this draft rest, then goes over a hardcopy with pencil in hand to make corrections, types that draft, and gives it to his beta readers.

The third draft he does is any correction and revision caused by whatever his beta readers say that he agrees with.

[maestrowork]

No, King said he had more than 2 drafts. I believe he said he would not let anyone read it (including his wife) until the third draft. He's also very big on rewrites and revisions, but advises to put a stop to incessant revising.

[Jamesaritchie]

No, King said he had more than 2 drafts. I believe he said he would not let anyone read it (including his wife) until the third draft. He's also very big on rewrites and revisions, but advises to put a stop to incessant revising.

Maybe we're reading it differently. I just went through "On Writing" again, and he does say he does one draft with the door closed, then pencils in corrections, then gives that draft to his beta readers.

He talks about it from pages 208-220. He writes his first draft, lets it rest for six weeks, goes through with a pencil, then says, ""When I've finished reading and marking all my anal-retentive little revisions, it's time to open the door and show what I've written to four or five close friends who have indicated a willingness to look."

[maestrowork]

Actually we were both incorrect. King said that he does 2 drafts (1st with the door shut, the second with the door open) and a polish, which to him has become close to a 3rd draft. He also said to do what feels natural to you as a writer -- everyone is different.

[mr mistook]

I'm still on such a learning curve. I've learned so much here that I can't help but go back to old chapters and give them an overhaul. In the end this first novel of mine may amount to nothing more than the hacked-up thing upon which I cut my teeth.

[novelator]

My first novel is shelved--permanently. 120,000 words of a great story with atrocious writing. My temporary writer's permit. I eventually stole the best line from that book, then wondered if I hadn't written all those words to get that one line for this other novel where it fit perfectly.

I have another novel, the first one I ever shopped, that I over-edited to the point that it's sterile, a generic read. Again, good story, but I removed my voice completely in my drive for perfection, or what I thought perfection might be. Nine months, innumerable passes, and it collects dust. I will probably rewrite it in a year or two, if I ever get caught up with my other ones.

I have one at an agent now that I made two passes on, determined not to whack my work before I let the beta readers have at it. Made a third pass, purely for typos. Then out it went. Since I have a waiting list to read it among friends of my betas, looked like the best thing to do was leave it alone. Seems to have that word-of-mouth thing going for it. I'm going to do the same with the rest of my work, just make a few passes, and out. I'm writing well enough I feel safe in doing that, safer still now that I recognize my voice.

Mari

[Crusader]

I have another novel, the first one I ever shopped, that I over-edited to the point that it's sterile, a generic read. Again, good story, but I removed my voice completely in my drive for perfection, or what I thought perfection might be.

The possibility of over-editing something to where it becomes sterile or generic, has always troubled me. So i feel a pang of sympathy towards the above misfortune.

Yet at the same time, i don't know how to write without seeking perfection, so any draft with less than "a lot" of edits always looks horribly stunted to me. And if someone actually wanted to buy my work before i was happy with it, i can see the seed of a serious dilemma there.

Thus i wonder, which is worse: to shelve an over-edited story, or to sell an unfulfilling one?

From where i'm sitting, at least a shelved story is a private shame. Whereas a bad performance that sold anyway, is a public spectacle.

[maestrowork]

Why don't you edit it back to reflect your voice/style?

[Gala]

Maestro--any novels in the drawer?

James--are you saying you have published every single novel you ever wrote, with the exception of one that was rejected?

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[HConn]

I only have one novel completed, with a second on the way.

That first novel made the rounds to the 12 publishers I wanted to target, then I put it in a drawer. Recently, I heard that Wizards of the Coast were looking to publish original fiction (Shawn posted the link here somwhere) so I dragged that manuscript out to have another look.

Then I started rewriting it. Finally, I decided that I didn't want it published, even if WotC was willing. So it went back into the drawer and the pages I'd printed for the submission envelope went into my son's scribble pile.

It's going to stay there, too.

[maestrowork]

Gala, I've only completed one novel, which is set to be published. I'm currently working on two (one at about 22K and the other just started). So no drawer or attic novels yet.

[Gala]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>set to be published<hr></blockquote>
Hey congrats! Tell us more.

My first was not well crafted. One of the decent chapters was excerpted in an anthology and well received, but ultimately I decided to move on to writing that was more important and more honest. People still ask me if I'll publish it, and I may go back to it one day. I still like the story and characters.

Thanks for the answer HConn. Good luck.

Deciding to file away my first novel was agonizing. My fans accused me of giving up. I explained that not every child's finger painting belongs in the Louvre. I've realized that knowing it was time to move on meant I'd matured as a writer, and I was willing to put my ego aside for the sake of writing.

Having done so I'm in the company of S. King, Rowling, Faulkner, and other writers I admire.

I must practice to master anything I tackle; writing novels is no different.

Anyone else?

[vstrauss]

I too am an edit-as-I-go person. I begin each day by rereading and editing from the start of whatever scene I'm working on. When I'm done with a chapter I reread and edit that. When I finish a larger section, I reread/edit that. Once I get to the end I do a total reread/edit (by that time, I've gotten things pretty close to the way I want them; this edit is mainly for style). If I could, I'd then put it aside for a couple of months and do a final readthrough, and that would be the point at which I felt done enough to send it out. In practice, I can't indulge myself with this last step, since I'm usually working to some sort of deadline--but I do get a chance for another readthrough when the ms. comes back from my editor (and my beta readers) with suggestions, and one last time (strictly for style, word repetition, and the like) when I look over the copyedited ms.

For me, editing is the process of uncovering my voice, of cutting away what isn't needed and sharpening what remains so that the book on the page comes as close as I can manage to the book in my head. The distance between the two--the book I want to write and the book I actually write--is what challenges and inspires me (and sometimes makes me despair); it's what keeps me striving. I'll admit that editing can occasionally become a form of procrastination for me, and I do sometimes have the sense that I've gone beyond the point of usefulness in editing particular sections (usually short passages that I'm having particular trouble with), and should just leave off, in which case I do. But mostly the editing process is both productive and inspiring for me. It's definitely the part of writing I enjoy most; I don't especially enjoy laying down new text.

I write over the old version when I edit, and don't save the previous versions, except in very rare cases where I make a major plot change.

- Victoria

[Gala]

Thanks Victoria. That's great insight into your editing process.

Have you sought publication of all your novels, or do you have some in the drawer?

[Writing Again]

I only have one written novel "in the drawer." My first novel was not written with publication in mind. It was written to get past the 80,000 word mark. I'd only written short stories prior to that, the longest maybe 5,000 words, possibly 7,000 words.

I've written many other things designed to master the art rather than as publishable works.

All of these have disappeared over time. Lost in moving, in someone mistaking them for trash, etc.

Right now my WIP feels like it is in the drawer. I need to get moving on it. I've spent too much time working, living, and forumizing.

[Gala]

I was young when I wrote my first; not young in mind and body but young in experience.

Very few writers publish first novels. Many jacket blurbs advertise "first novel" but research finds an interview where the author says otherwise. "First novel" is a marketing tool that for me, as an experienced novelist, backfires. I'm real skeptical a writer publishes their first anything.

I'm impressed with writers like James and Maestro who indeed published their first novels. (assuming everything we read on the Internet is true. I like the idea it's true.)

8o

[maestrowork]

Even though it is my first novel, I've been writing my entire life and I have written short stories, etc. The bottomline is: keep writing and you will get there. I have at least five or six shorts in the "drawer" that I'd like to revise and get published some day. Just no novels in the drawer.

The novel did take me over 5 years from concept to completion, however. Compared to James (who finished in 3 months and got it published), I'm definitely a noob.

I agree, though, that mentioning "this is my very first completed novel" might not be a good idea when you're shopping around. It either works for or against you, mostly likely the latter.

[Gala]

Compared to James (who finished in 3 months and got it published
James can correct me but I think he said he had a degree in and had worked in journalism and editing. That means he'd done a bit of writing. He wasn't a noob, if I'm correct.

I'm not convinced noobs can pull of a novel, unless they are prodigies.

Five years ain't long. We could all name authors who've taken much longer (Arthur Goldman, 15 years for Memoirs of a Geisha--I'm glad he kept re-writing until he got it right.)

Actually, I've heard from various "official" sources, and some not official, a rule of thumb: First novel usually takes five years. Goes quicker after that.

[maestrowork]

My second one has taken me 9 months so far -- but of course, I didn't write anything between March and ... July/August, so technically it has taken me four months so far? So you're definitely right... I think the first novel usually takes the longest.

I think it took Grisham 3 years to write "A Time To Kill," which I'm not sure was his very first novel (published/unpublished).

Who knows, though. Didn't Thomas Harris take 10 years to write Hannibal?

[vstrauss]

>>Have you sought publication of all your novels, or do you have some in the drawer?<<

I have a third of a novel in a drawer--the one book of mine my agent refused to represent--plus a number of synopses/false starts that I either lost interest in or that didn't prove viable when I began to work seriously on them. Every book I've completed has been published.

That's actually not saying much: I've been writing for a long time and have only completed six books (nearly seven now). I'm a very slow writer. My first novel took me just eleven months to write (mainly because I had no clue what I was doing), but the best I can do now is around three years per book, including research and planning and some down time between projects. Not exactly optimal for a genre writer, which is probably one reason my career isn't in better shape.

I got my first novel published, but it was a very lucky break for me and might just as easily not have happened. The book really wasn't ready for prime time; I was fortunate to hook up with an editor who was willing to do a lot of work with me to pound it into shape.

- Victoria

[Writing Again]

Remember also it is common for a writer to sell their "first" novel and then not produce another salable novel for years, perhaps writing three or four between their first and second sale.

[Jamesaritchie]

Remember also it is common for a writer to sell their "first" novel and then not produce another salable novel for years, perhaps writing three or four between their first and second sale.

It certainly happens. I also sold my first novel, and the next six, but Nora Roberts, who earned a reported 60 million last year, sold her first novel, and then had to write EIGHT more before selling one.

I wrote my first novel start to finish in three weeks. It's hard to say how long it takes me now. Anywhere from six weeks if I'm energetic and feeling good, to six months, if I'm lazy and just not feeling well. And, of course, it depends on the novel.

I don;t spend much time on research. I get my hands on two of the thickest, most authoritative books I can find on whatever subject/era I need to research, and I read them cover to cover. Then I write the novel fairly quickly, making any notes along the way to show where more research is needed. When the first draft is finsihed, I fill in any gaps in research.