Do I need to say a character is black?

[Greenwolf103]

I know I'll get ribbed for this (a la "the proper term is African-American") but I thought I'd just save everybody the extra eyestrain. :)

Do I need to mention that a minor character in only one scene is African-American? He has a name typical of the African-American community and he "walks the walk." But do I *need* to indicate his race? Please advise.

[MissKathyClarke]

Is he a main character? Does the the character affect the plot? If so, you might want to say he's black. However, if everyone in your book is black or it's insignificant, then only put it in if you feel like you need to ;)

[Fresie]

Well, as a reader I'm not very happy when I can't visualise the character, and skin colour counts for me. When I visualise somebody as white and then learn they're black, I find it pretty annoying.

I remember I read a fantasy novel once (skin color's pretty irrelevant in fantasy) and the author gave all sorts of "subtle" clues giving her character all sorts of Afro-American manners and words, but in the end (I was a beta reader) I just had to ask her, "Is he black or what?" It's got nothing to do with political correctness, I just want to be able to visualise the guy!

[Writing Again]

Steven King was well into IT before he mentioned one of the main characters was black.

Do what is best for the story.

I remember one of those Reader's Digest "Humor in Uniform" bits where the guy is waiting for his friend's wife at the air port. He finally goes up to this one woman who is standing all alone and asks, "Are you Joe's wife?"

"Yes. Are you John?"

He commented that, "It would have sure helped if he had mentioned you were pregnant."

To which she replied, "It would have also helped if he'd have mentioned you were black."

[reph]

What's the background assumption? Black readers might start out thinking of all the characters as black, except the ones named Chun-Li and Vito and Bubba.

[zerohour21]

Might as well if you want. It's only a couple of words; one line at the most, so as long as it flows with the rest of the story, go ahead.

[maestrowork]

No if the character's race is not important to the story.

[zerohour21]

I meant something along the lines of: "And then a black person approached him/her/me/us/them, and..." Understand what I mean now?

[Zazopolis]

What's the point? Can't you convey skin color without having to mention it? Or at least describe it in a tastier manner.

She looked like a Hershey's kiss and I was dripping caramel.

[maestrowork]

Again, is it important to the story if the character is black?

You can easily just say "then a tall person approaches him..."

If the info is not important, leave it out. Let the readers visualize the character any way they want.

[Fresie]

I remember I read a romance once where the hero was in love with a black girl. But the writer wasn't very straightforward about it--I figured it out only by the middle of the story. The problem was, I obviously wasn't the only one because the cover pictured the hero embracing a... caucasian brunette! That was really funny.

[HConn]

Green, think how your POV character would describe him, then describe him that way. Pick out the details that the POV character would notice and use them

[Kempo Kid]

I'd say yes, simply because it helps visualize the character.

"A tall, young black man approached him...."

"A thin, blond dude walked up to him...."

"A middle-aged Asian man tapped him on the shoulder...."

[Eowyn Eomer]

I think simply using the term "black" makes it clear and doesn't confuse the reader. Do people generally think of characters as white unless it's specified?

I find with white people, unless they have black hair, people will automatically assume by saying they have brown, blond, or red hair, that they are white. But even saying they have black hair isn't enough because both black and white people have black hair.

JK Rowling in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone wrote this description of Dean Thomas during the Sorting Ceremony. "a Black boy even taller than Ron." I'm confused why they capitalized the word black though since it's a descriptor. Why would that be capitalized?

Another way I think which helps tell the reader if a character is black is by what their name is. There seem to be names which are unique amongst people who are black.

I find "African American" to be an interesting term because I would guess most black Americans were born here and their families have lived here a long time. Thus they're American. What if every American used their ancestory to say who they are, because unless you are Native American (Indian) you can trace your roots to some other country. Would we call people English-American, Scottish-American, Welsh-American, German-American, Russian-American, Chinese-American, Asian-American, Brazilian-American, etc...? Although to be honest, most of us could probably trace our ancestory back to several countries so it would be a rather long title. Like saying you're English-German-Russian-French-American or something.

Enough with my rambling. One question though. If you say that your character has fair skin, does fair refer to the color or feel of the skin?

[Writing Again]

Although to be honest, most of us could probably trace our ancestory back to several countries so it would be a rather long title. Like saying you're English-German-Russian-French-American or something.

I like the term Hienz 57 from back in the days when they claimed to have 57 varieties. And people would say, "I'm an all American Hienz 57."

[maestrowork]

I was thinking about the same thing. I mean, do readers automatically assume someone is white when no descriptions are given? I mean if it's a white guy with black hair, do I have to say: "A tall, thin, white guy with black hair walked up to me..."? And why is it relevant to the story? I mean, is it okay for the readers to visual the guy as a "chubby, short, black man" since it doesn't matter to the story?

I mean, when you tell a story to a colleague, do you say "a tall, thin, white guy" or do you just say "this guy"? Do you only describe the person if he's not white: "this black guy" or something like "this fat guy"? Why is it relevant to your story if the guy is black or fat or Asian or Italian?

IMHO, readers DO NOT need to have visual hues from the author to visualize EVERY single characters. If the character is minor and if his attributes are not essential to the story, I'd say skip them. It gets really annoying after a while when the author tries to describe every minor characters in the book...

[Ruukah]

I know I'll get ribbed for this (a la "the proper term is African-American") but I thought I'd just save everybody the extra eyestrain.

Actually I just spent 4 months living in a house with about 6 "African Americans" coming and going...and they all referred to themselves as "black". In fact I had a white roommate who was uncomfortable saying the word "black" and they had to sit her down and teach her! :lol But anyway...I'm straying from the point. I don't think there's anything wrong with indicating a character's race in writing. You don't have to use the words "black" or "African American"--you could use more unique, descriptive language and weave it into a sentence. For example, "He ran his hands through her raven hair, and touched a finger to her smooth, dark cheek." Okay, corny. I know. But you get the point, ehh? :D

[Writing Again]

One of my issues with so many novels is that so many are "lily white" and if you read them you would think the whole world was white.

I've always lived in mixed neighborhoods. I'm more comfortable in a mixed neighborhood than I am in a all white neighborhood. Maybe because I have so much Native American Indian blood in me.

Another of my issues is with age. So many novels have only one age. Like maybe everyone is between 25 and 35. The world I live in has kids in it. It has teenagers and young adults and college kids and grand mothers and grand fathers.

So when I visit a novel and it is all 27 year old white people I feel like it is artificial; a dream state.

When I write a novel I try to mix in a bit of everything. If nothing else my peripheral characters are many ages, many colors, many ideas.

[Jamesaritchie]

Do you have to say that a character is white? Good writing and realistic characters will nearly always do the trick.

[katdad]

An interesting question and it's generated some fine commentary, and cheers to everyone for speaking about this without any chips on shoulders in any direction.

My two bits... My private detective novels are 1st person narrative, and as you know the genre, the protag. explains things and describes events is detail.

My stories are set in modern Houston so I've created a wide range of characters with many ethnic backgrounds. Since most people are causasian, I don't say anything about a person being 'white'. I describe the person otherwise, such as middle-age, chunky, redhead, etc. If the persion is a minority I simply say it and move on -- 'Lieutenant Kelly was a handsome athletic black man with a neatly trimmed goatee. He reminded me of Avery Brooks in Star Trek. Kelly possessed the combination of street smarts and a sharp mind. He also had a terrific reputation in the Robbery division and everyone figured him a shoo-in for Captain." This is done so the reader has a mental image of the character, which generates the desired connection.

Being modern crime fiction, sometimes there are racist or otherwise hateful epithets in the dialogue, and I don't mince words. But of course I don't employ them as a means of declamation.

[preyer]

if i open the book up and see your descriptor as 'african-american,' i'm going to put it down figuring you're a politically correct jerk weed writing only blasse, inoffensive crap because you've got no balls to speak of.

but if you say 'black,' i'm going to put it down because you're a racist bastard.

just kidding. well, on the second one. the only one of that bunch i'll take is 'native american' because 'indian' instantly draws up a foreign-looking person to me. seriously, if i even get a whiff of political correctness, i'll find something else to read.

sorry, katdad, one of my biggest pet peeves is when a writer uses an actor to describe a character's looks. i think it's just too cheap and easy. 'he reminded me of ed asner during the 'mary tyler moore' years.' ah, crap, man, now i can't think of anyone other than that guy. how hard is it to say, 'he had big fat features on a big fat pumpkin head'? and is it just me or does every writer who does this always use a 'star trek' reference? lol. you also run the risk of, 'he reminded me of peter mayhew,' and the reader be like, who?

[detante]

One of my issues with so many novels is that so many are "lily white" and if you read them you would think the whole world was white.

Out of curiousity, do these novels specificially state all the characters are white, or is that an assumption on the part of the reader?

If you think it is important that the reader see this character as black and only as black, then you should state it terms so that you, the reader, would understand. When you are reading, what clues do you look for to determine a character's race? Do you needed to be told a character's exact skin tone before you see them as anything but white?

My two cents,
Jen

[Greenwolf103]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments on this. It's really given me a lot to think about!

I find "African American" to be an interesting term because I would guess most black Americans were born here and their families have lived here a long time. Thus they're American.

Agreed. And this particular character wasn't born in Africa, but L.A.

As for my POV character: She is also black. Actually, she is an elderly black woman and she doesn't recognize people by their skin colors. She refers to the character in question by his name and not his race. But I still think I should let my readers know that this is not a white kid we're reading in this particular scene. The character is in only one scene, which lasts a couple of pages and I just want to know if it's important that I point out he's not some white kid a reader happens to visualize.

Though it really doesn't matter if they do...

[Writing Again]

Out of curiousity, do these novels specificially state all the characters are white, or is that an assumption on the part of the reader?

The burden is not on the reader. Admittedly I have not been published in 20 years. Something may have slipped past me in the mean time, but the editorial standard in the United States has always been that if not otherwise stated by the writer then the character is an American white Anglo Saxon Protestant: WASP if you are familiar with the term.

The exception being when your main character is in their own milieu: Crocodile Dundee in Australia, when you would assume everyone was Australian unless stated otherwise: A black family in Harlem or Watts, when you would assume everyone not stated otherwise was black: A Navajo detective on the Big Rez, when you would assume every character was Navajo unless stated otherwise.

Granted this "tradition" comes from a social bias: At one time WASP was the standard by which all things American were measured. Prior to Martin Luther King the phrase "Free white and 21" was the slogan stating one's Independence.


preyer

just kidding. well, on the second one. the only one of that bunch i'll take is 'native american' because 'indian' instantly draws up a foreign-looking person to me. seriously, if i even get a whiff of political correctness, i'll find something else to read.

I have difficulty with a lot of ethnic terms. To me both African American and Native American seem contrived. Indian to me conjures up a picture of what every American meant by the word until ten years ago: One of the Native American Tribes. Now people say "Indian" and apply it to everyone from the Mid East: Often including people from Iraq, Iran, and Egypt. The word Asian can mean any one from the Far East: Chinese, Japanese, Korean,: Around this area Asian tends to mean Vietnamese, Hmong, Mien. My preference, if possible, is to name the tribe I am speaking about and to name the nationality I am speaking.

May I point out that there is no difference between the attitude that "politically correct people have nothing to say I want to listen to" is the exact equivalent of "People who use vulgarity have nothing to say I want to listen to."

seriously, if i even get a whiff of political correctness, i'll find something else to read.

If you don't want your own work to be prejudged based on superficial criteria then refrain from using superficial criteria when judging the work of others .

[stormie267]

I'm just going to throw this one in:

I was reading a PB to my niece one day, and the story was about Martin Luther King and the words "little black boys and girls" came up. My niece, who was six, looked at her hand and said, "Well, he wasn't talking about me. I'm more medium brown." And she also looks puzzled if she hears someone refer to her as "African American."

When describing characters, you could say, light brown skin, olive colored skin, reddish-pink skin, ruddy complexion, dark brown skin.... Even caucasians have varying degrees of coloration.

[Writing Again]

When describing characters, you could say, light brown skin, olive colored skin, reddish-pink skin, ruddy complexion, dark brown skin.... Even Caucasians have varying degrees of coloration.

I have seen extreme racism in some "whites" who were far darker than most of the "blacks" they were disparaging.

[reph]

Dialect can be an identifier. Stephen King once had a minor character in a prison scene say to the POV character, after the latter had spoken with somebody else, "Man you talkin' to be wearin' a wire." This character was so minor that he had no other role in the book.

That kind of speech will nail race and class at once. Educated black Americans speak standard English, with regional variations.

[Eowyn Eomer]

I don't think anybody answered my question, so I'm going to ask it again. If you say that your character has fair skin, does fair refer to the color or feel of the skin?

[reph]

"Fair" refers to color.

[Writing Again]

I would take it to mean color. I've never heard skin texture be called "fair" only the color; the complexion. Same is true for hair. "Fair haired" I've always understood to be in the "blond" range.

[Eowyn Eomer]

So fair skin would be pretty white, right? The character wouldn't have a tan?

[HConn]

Right. No tan.

[detante]

The burden is not on the reader. Admittedly I have not been published in 20 years. Something may have slipped past me in the mean time, but the editorial standard in the United States has always been that if not otherwise stated by the writer then the character is an American white Anglo Saxon Protestant: WASP if you are familiar with the term.

Funny, I've never considered how I envision a character as a burden. I know what a WASP is. I am also familiar with the antiquated standard. That doesn't mean I must conform to it as a reader or as a writer. I have yet to receive a visit from the thought police for violating the standard.

Perhaps you could start a new standard by specifically stating caucasian characters are white. In any event, do what works for you. Best of luck!

Jen

[JustinoXV]

Actually, just because race isn't mentioned in a script doesn't mean that the characters are, or aren't white. Perhaps the writer didn't feel the need to bring racial issues into that particular novel.

I also think that dialect doesn't necessarily portray what race someone is. Not all black people speak the same. If a black person is from the UK, France, Cuba, or Brazil, what dialect would they have?

If someone like Ms. Rice or Mr. Powell were speaking, it would be wrong to represent them with a fake fictional "negro" dialect, since they don't speak that way. If that's that important to the story, either describe the character as black or have one of the characters in the story refer to it.

As for "african american" well, racist whites have and still do say blacks should go back to Africa. I should know because someone said that to me.

So obviously, I'm very much a person of African descent. When I'm in cities like LA and NYC and I'm around people from Africa, I look like them.

As for this term versus that term, different people identify themselves differently, even within the same race. You should be respectful of other people to go along with what they call themselves.

I had two friends who are mixed race. Both have one black and one white parent. The girl has a polish mother and a black father and considers herself black. The guy has a black hispanic mother and a white hispanic father. He refers to himself as either mixed race or latin.

Frankly, I don't care if someone is a purple eggplant. So why should I tell someone how they should identify? If someone calls himself black, fine. If someone calls himself African American, fine. This is a free country, isn't it?

[reph]

One problem with the label "African-American" is its inaccurate use for people of West Indian descent. I think I've read that Colin Powell objects to being called Afr.-Amer. on that basis.

Another thing about dialect: immigrants to the U.S. from Africa are unlikely to use a style of speech that originated in American black communities. The ones I've met who learned English in school in Africa had sort of British accents.

[preyer]

'If you don't want your own work to be prejudged based on superficial criteria then refrain from using superficial criteria when judging the work of others.'

superficial criteria? if the writer is too afraid to use the word 'ni gger' where appropriate, then i can't respect them. and if someone opens my book and reads some cuss words in the middle of a torrid sex scene, by all means judge it. i never said i didn't want my stuff judged, but nor did i say that any given passage *wasn't* an example of the type of book it is, either. 'something to say' is great, but from what perspective it's derived indicates the depth which that meaning has, and politically correct people, to me, are drones regurgitating what some authority figure tells them to think. i could be wrong, but that's how i feel based on my experience. i'm not looking for political correctness in a book, it's bogus bullshyt more often than not, so if i find one example in a book i open up to a random page, why wouldn't i think there was more? and if there's more, why would i want to read it, not liking that stuff? just so i can understand why calling some dude 'fa ggot' is such a sin?

i really don't give a shyt what politically correct people have to say, i really, really, really don't. they can go re-write grimm fairy tales, retreat into some fantasy world, eat some lo-carb skittles and hug a tree while listening to enya in a scented bath and get whatever little slices of real life they manage to eke out from a book written by people in the trenches. because, you know, it's not politically correct to be in the trenches, but for people who are, those who ain't can just kiss our asses. know what i mean? i'm thinking not.

because the height of superficialness to me is called political correctness and those who even show a hint of embracing those ideals isn't something i just care to read. you can't drive by the ghetto and think you know what it's about. so, why would you even *say* african-american if not so afraid to use a real word, when i've yet to ever meet a black person who referred to themselves that way? i aver such a writer has absolutely no knowledge of it, so what else do they have to say that can't be taken from a book that's real (and not even hard core, just realistic)? probably not a helluva lot i haven't figured out already or grandma hasn't told me.

sorry to seem like such a dick. :)

[maestrowork]

People, accents do not show race.

If your character's race is important, show it. Otherwise, don't.

[Writing Again]

Preyer, this made me laugh so hard... So funny:

because the height of superficialness to me is called political correctness and those who even show a hint of embracing those ideals isn't something i just care to read. you can't drive by the ghetto and think you know what it's about

Let me point out the irony here.

You see when I was poor we could not afford ghettos. So I was raised in a slum.

However someone decided that slum was not a politically correct term.

The Politically correct term is Ghetto.

Come on, face the truth and laugh at yourself. We are all in this together and we are all screwed up. You are not alone.

[Greenwolf103]

You know, it's interesting. I thought I'd get flamed for saying someone is "black" but instead the debate is raging over using "African-American."

If I use that term, it's coming from my character, not me. I don't censor my character's thoughts. But in this case, I'm dealing with a black character seeing another black character at her door. She doesn't identify him by skin color, only by his name and how she knows him.

But maestro seems to be repeating a certain message here and I'm thinking I should follow it.

Thanks for the input, all. :)

[katdad]

>>sorry, katdad, one of my biggest pet peeves is when a writer uses an actor to describe a character's looks.<<

Many writers do this and it's an accepted technique so long as it's not overused. I describe many characters but only a very few in terms of their "looking like" some celeb.

Pet peeve notwithstanding, I've seen this technique used a lot. And I don't overdo it.

[Writing Again]

>>sorry, katdad, one of my biggest pet peeves is when a writer uses an actor to describe a character's looks.<<


I wonder if this goes along with the rule that "movies should never mention movies: books should never mention books" because it "takes the audience out of the story."

Yet two really good movies that break those rules are Murder 101 and Scream.

Pet peeve notwithstanding, I've seen this technique used a lot. And I don't overdo it.

I'm not sure what overdoing it would entail. It is easy for me to picture a first person character who describes everyone he meets in terms of celebrities. Would that be over doing it, or would it just be a personality quirk?

[wwwatcher]

Can you work it into the character's thoughts? Then he/she will be telling us he's black. (Back in the Hood we did things this way.)

Might work depending on the story.

[JustinoXV]

I've been to South America. Blacks in countries like Paraguay and Argentina are often called Afro Americanos, which is Spanish for African American.

Blacks from the Caribbean are still of African descent. And they are in the Americans.

Colin Powell is one person who is free to like or not like a term. He does not speak for blacks, whether Caribbeans or Americans. The idea that one black person can speak for an entire group of people is ludicrious.

As for Caribbean blacks, many of them practice African religions like vodun, santeria, obeah, and Shango. Culturally they are far more African than black Americans.

[JustinoXV]

"Another thing about dialect: immigrants to the U.S. from Africa are unlikely to use a style of speech that originated in American black communities."

Some black Africans, upon arriving here, adopt words like "ho" when they come here. For that matter, I lot of white people watch the hip hop starts and adopt their language. One of the biggest rap singers around is Eninem, a white guy.

Then you have classical singers, like Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman, who sing in a variety of European languages, (English, Latin, Italian, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc).

I agree with Maestro work. If a character's race is important to the story, show it. Otherwise, don't.

[triceretops]

You don't have to say a character is black, just show or reveal it. For instance, have the character say, "Hey, that's mighty white of you." Or some other such identifier.

Triceratops

[JustinoXV]

"so, why would you even *say* african-american if not so afraid to use a real word, when i've yet to ever meet a black person who referred to themselves that way?"

I've refered to myself as African American, and I've known other people of African descent who have referred to themselves as African Americans or of African descent, etc.

[reph]

Blacks from the Caribbean are still of African descent.

Quite so. And if you go back enough generations beyond that, everybody's of African descent.

[JustinoXV]

"Quite so. And if you go back enough generations beyond that, everybody's of African descent."

But everyone is not of black african descent.

And the culture of the Caribbean is quite African, with religions like Shango, Obeah, Vodun, and Santeria.

Before you comment on an issue, you might want to know something about it!

You clearly know nothing about the cultures of various black/african communities!

Many of the Caribbean nations speak creole languages, languages that are combinations between European and African languages.

Hatian Creole, Jamaican Patwa, are examples.
Certain rites in Santeria are conducted in Yoruba, a language from Nigeria!

[JustinoXV]

I've also met Cuban practioners of Palo Mayombe. Many of them, in their rituals, use a language from their ancestral lands in Angola.

Even medically, those of black african descent are different. They tend to have higher rates of sickle cell anemia. This was a benefit in resisting malaria. North Europeans did not sell the tropics in large numbers because they could not take the heat and the diseases.

[Jamesaritchie]

The simple truth is there are times to say a character is black, and times not to. You just have to use your own judgement. But any good writer can show a character is black or red or white or green without every saying so.

An unless race is an issue in the story, I don't think it matters in the least. Blacks aren't some breed of alien just dropped to earth from outer space. They're people. I think it's best for the writer to just treat them as people and not label without reason. There's generally no more reason, and no less reason, to say a character is black than to say a white character is white.

And are you sure to label Asians, Mexicans, etc.

But you know, I have never, ever heard a black say "African-American" unless he was on TV giving a speech. I think it's much like the terms "writer" and "author." Out here in the real world, we're writers. On TV we're authors.

"Native American" is the term I hate. So do many Indians. I'm as much a native american as anyone. My family has been here more than 200 years. And as a Cheokee relative says, "What, now we didn't come from the same place as the rest of the human race? That really is racist. "Native American" is another term the white man invented to belittle Indians."

[reph]

But everyone is not of black african descent.

Is the color of the earliest humans known? Are you sure it wasn't black?

You clearly know nothing about the cultures of various black/african communities!

I don't claim to know anything about them. That knowledge isn't necessary in order to allude to a finding from paleontology.

Justino, are you aware of how often your posts on this and other parts of the Water Cooler contain belittling remarks like "You clearly know nothing..."? What do you hope to accomplish with those?

[mr mistook]

Like Writing-Again, I live in a town with huge racial diversity, and black folks account for nearly a third of the population. I also happen to live in a rental community that has a very high percentage of refugees coming straight over from far flung parts of the world.

I see a very marked difference between the Africans and the average American blacks. The Africans have much darker skin, and their features are much more distinct. Like it or not, black people are gradually whitening up. Meanwhile, white people are slowly getting color.

Who are "white" people anyway? A few short generations ago there was as much discrimination between Irish, Itallian, Polish, German, Jewish, etc, etc... as there is today between black, mexican, asian, and middle eastern.

VERY FEW people are truly *white*. The culture that we refer to as "White Culture" is better described as "Default American Culture". It's simply the base-line.

In my novel, if I don't tag my characters with race, everybody truly DOES assume that they are all white... but that's because they all more or less adhere to that default base-line. They all speak generic english, and use generic slang.

No matter what your ethnic descent, if you are at least third generation American, you've "assimilated" into this default culture that we call "white". You may have more exclusive cultural spheres in which you feel just as comfortable, but we all can relate to that base-line. We call it "white" today, but in 100 years we might call it "tan".

[Writing Again]

To those who feel that racial differences should only be included if it effects the story, if important to the story, I have to say that in this instance I simply do not care if it is important to the story or not. It is important to creating the world that I inhabit within the story.

When you write about any specific thing you are supposed to be realistic. In another thread we discussed the fact that guns and cars should do in fiction what they do in life. Pistols are not accurate a mile a way, a rifle is not accurate five miles away. A Cadillac does not climb mountains well. You don't write about a parking lot filled with only one kind of care. Unless you are writing about soldiers or cops with guns they have been issued you will find everyone uses a different gun.

I live in a world of variety. I like variety. My novels reflect this. If I have a part to be played that can be played by any character at all, then I choose a character type that has not yet appeared in the story.

When you read about a college, or see one portrayed in the movies all the students are exactly 22.3 years old. Yet when I walk around a college campus I see professors that look 23 and students that are grandmothers.

A story should be an adventure: Why should it have less rather than more variety than real life?

[seeb55]

In certain stories and at different times in a story race is an issue. In those cases, I would describe the race if it wasn't already obvious through dialogue or some other clues.

In Leathal Weapon, does the fact that Riggs is white and Murtaugh is black factor into their relationship? Not much, if at all.

In Leathal Weapon II, when dealing with the South Africans, Murtaugh's being black plays a big part, for instance when Leo says he has a friend who wants to emigrate and a black man (Murtaugh) shows up. In this instance the audience needs to know he's black. And Murtaugh doesn't speak ebonics for the most part. So if you were writing this type of scene in a novel, you definitely want the reader to know he's black so that the joke works.

[SRHowen]

I wasn't going to comment, but, being from a race who is now Native American, Indian, American Indian, Indigenous---shall I go on?

Know what most of call ourselves?

Cherokee

Navajo

Sioux

Blackfoot

and so on in the respective languages, with clan tacked on.

Online we use ndn, to differentiate ourselves from India Indians. As to skin color, well, it is also assumed due to Hollywood that we are all dark skinned--not so.

As to dialect, no that doesn't tell race, but there are pauses and inflections in each racial groups speech that often does give it away. I say often, not always, but when I speak to someone on the phone I can almost always tell what race they are just by tone, inflection and pauses. For men more than women.

As to using it in a book, it is one tool to describe your character, and political correctness has no place there. If you are in POV then your character is described by the character seeing them. How does that character see them?

John saw the woman from an a block away, it was that damn squaw that worked at 7-eleven.

That says one thing about your character--

John saw the woman from a block away, it was Shawn--the Native American woman who worked at 7-eleven.

That says something else--

John saw the woman from a black away, the Indian woman who worked at 7-eleven.

Says another--

John saw the woman from a block away--that 7-eleven clerk, Eastern Band Cherokee, Qualla rez, he thought she was Potato clan.

Says that John is most likely also the same race as the person he sees.

So more than describing your character as one race or another, use the chance to present info about your POV character.

Shawn

[Greenwolf103]

Shawn, that really helps. Thank you so much! My POV character is the same race but I don't have her opening the door to see this kid and say, "What up, dog?" She doesn't use Ebonics or street talk. Actually, she is a deeply spiritual person, and the way she speaks sort of reflects this. I'll find a way to squeeze the character's race into the scene but only so that readers can visualize him the way I'm writing him.

[JustinoXV]

"The Africans have much darker skin, and their features are much more distinct. Like it or not, black people are gradually whitening up."

Even there, not necessarily. Some people from the continent of Africa are light skinned. North Africans as a rule are mostly caucasian.

You've a bunch of mixed race people in South Africa.

In West African countries like Nigeria, again, I've met very light skinned people. A friend of mine from Nigeria had a British father. She was as light as Vanessa Williams. For centuries, you've had Europeans, Arabs, Asians, and Indians in Africa.

And there are some jet black African Americans. One cannot look at skin color and use that as a determination of a place of birth.

[JustinoXV]

"Is the color of the earliest humans known? Are you sure it wasn't black?"

Their color is utterly irrelevant.

"You clearly know nothing about the cultures of various black/african communities!

I don't claim to know anything about them. That knowledge isn't necessary in order to allude to a finding from paleontology."

You're trying to change the original topic. You claimed that blacks in the Americas had nothing to do with black Africans. That's quite false, as many of them live in African based cultures.

[reph]

You're trying to change the original topic. You claimed that blacks in the Americas had nothing to do with black Africans.

I didn't claim any such thing. I said that everybody's of African descent if you go back far enough. I meant way back, before the migrations to other continents. That's why the color of the earliest humans is relevant.

[JustinoXV]

"I said that everybody's of African descent if you go back far enough."

But not everyone is racially a black African.

It does not matter what a white European or an Asians ancestors looked like 200,000 years ago. That isn't the issue.

The issue is modern, contemporary ancestry. People whose families are from subsaharan African or who left their at any any point in the past few centures are black.

Of course, we all know that as a species, we share common ancestry, but that's off topic as far as African American versus Black is concerned.

Linguists classify certain languages as African. Certain religious and customs are African. (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are Middle Eastern religions, Buddhism is Asian, etc).

There are also elements of African culture among blacks in the US. Certain groups of African Americans off the coasts of the Carolinas and Georgia speak Gullah, which is a creole language. It's a combination of English and African languages. Louisiana Creole is a combination of French, Spanish, and African languages.

[reph]

Off topic? Well, the discussion at that point touched on racism. I thought a reminder that everyone's ancestors came from Africa was relevant.

[SRHowen]

UGH!

Folks, take a step back here. The question of out of Africa is again and again being challenged. Does it matter to your story? The question is should you tell the reader a character's race. It was asked in a way that made it seem the question was is it PC to do so?

Someone I work with, in my editing, wanted to strike the word black from a story--no black magic, no black as night and so on because they thought is was not PC. I went off on him. That's so silly. And so is taking this question to the lowest level and arguing the human birth place.

In a story you want have your readers "see" your characters. If the reader is "white" they will see the characters as white, if they are "black" they will see the characters as black and so on--but maybe they won't. Maybe they will see them all as white or red or black for whatever reason.

So to pain a picture you need to give details to show your readers your vision. USE RACE AS A GOOD BASE, then back up and give the entire picture.

I have a friend who is black--of the very dark skin tones. She is collage educated, well spoken, never heard her use anything but the king's English. Until I ran into her at a 4th of July thing and she was with other blacks, then I could hardly understand a thing she said her Ebonics were so thick.

So that comes into consideration as well. When i submitted my ms to my agent and he accepted, he commented on the speech patterns and so forth--done through comas, em dashes, and pauses, and wording, he felt that I did the ndn speech justice.

So, include speech, include skin color--always loved that Hershey's chocolate complexion, or the bronze tone of my cousin's skin, while I have a bronze tone to my own complexion--I'm way light.

Again, descriptions a say more about your POV character than the character being described.

Shawn

[Writing Again]

So far SRHowen has the best post relating to the subject I have yet seen posted here.

[maestrowork]

Again, descriptions say more about your POV character than the character being described.

Amen!

[Kate Nepveu]

Way back, Eowyn Eomer asked: JK Rowling in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone wrote this description of Dean Thomas during the Sorting Ceremony. "a Black boy even taller than Ron." I'm confused why they capitalized the word black though since it's a descriptor. Why would that be capitalized?I believe that is British usage. The Harry Potter books are very inconsistently American-ized.

[reph]

"Black" and "white" often had initial caps in print in the U.S. in the 1960s and 1970s, when the civil-rights movement was newer. Publishers' styles still vary on that.

[Writing Again]

I believe that is British usage. The Harry Potter books are very inconsistently American-ized.

I personally don't see why they should be Americanized at all. Those of us who read Punch and regularly read Brittish authors are quite comfortable with Brit Speak. People should expand their horizons. It is not really so horrible that a torch and a flashlight can mean both the same thing and something different as well. Happens all the time in every language in the world.

[Kate Nepveu]

I agree; I think it's part of the charm of reading British books. There are a few words or phrases that might cause some confusion for younger readers (jumper; knocked up), but I think even that's marginal.

[foxtale1]

Here's how I handled a passage - from the scene the reader knew I was talking about a soldier in his tent and that it was night - Cyrus tucked one hand behind his head, and with the other he smoothed the wool of the coat beside him. His black skin was barely discernable against the blue fabric in the dark as he ran his finger over a brass button, feeling the eagle crest of the union Army. - ok so now you know skin color, and that this was the American Civil War.

[foxtale1]

I wish I could recall a joke my uncle told. basically an American returns from London and describes the problems with American vs British English. Some parts I remember, like he had a flat and needed a lift. The Brit thought it strange because a flat is a one story apartment so why'd he need an elevator? He really needed a ride because he had a puncture. There was more; raise his bonnet being raise the car's hood, etc.

[foxtale1]

Shawn, I was in college at the time the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing. My mother was raised in Kansas, and while teaching her kids to treat all people fairly, she did have the habit of saying 'colored' when describing blacks. (African-American hadn't yet made the lexicon.) One visit home I drew myself up indignantly as only a college kid can, and interrupted her with ' Colored man? Just what color was the man, Mother?' She stared at me, stirred her coffee for a moment, and said, 'Why he was black, I think. Yes definitely black, you know, spelled NAACP.' Bully for her. She is still feisty, in her eighties! Also a few years back a hilarious retraction was in the Sacramento Bee Newspaper about a mugging victim. Along the lines of - The Bee erroneously described the victim as being an African-American, he was actually a Black Jamaican'.

[ybest]

In a story you want have your readers "see" your characters. If the reader is "white" they will see the characters as white, if they are "black" they will see the characters as black and so on--but maybe they won't. Maybe they will see them all as white or red or black for whatever reason.

I agree with most of what SRHowen said, except on one point. As a black, African American, Caribbean American (whatever you want to call me) who loves sci-fi I consider every character presented to me in any sci-fi or fantasy book as white unless otherwise indicated through direct language or environment. Even the elves are white. :lol

This is because the honest truth is they usually are. While I'm sure they exist, I've yet to see a man of African decent fighting a fire-breathing dragon on the cover of a book. I'm trained to just "make 'em white" by default in all books unless I'm told to switch to some other race.


Also, I think race and ethnicity, like all other qualities of a character, should only be mentioned if they enhance or add to the story in some way. If not, adding it just for the sake if it is a waste of space and should make you wonder why it’s worth mentioning. I mean could you sub in that he was ‘overweight’ instead of black without changing anything? If so, what value does either description really have?

But if you’re story needs that piece of info, do it! As for PC, for me, the job of the writer is to tell it how it is (or was). PC or not, if “black” “African American,” “nigger” or “Negro” is the term your character should be referred to as, then do it! As was said before, it’s a reflection of your character and the time period. The story should dictate the need of such adjectives, and just what those adjectives should be.


Personally, I’d say using “black” over “African American” is fine. I mean, in modern society we’re more likely to say “white” opposed to “Caucasian,” right? :rolleyes Same difference.



He has a name typical of the African-American community and he "walks the walk."

This quote is from your orginal post. Be careful about stereotyping. There is no such thing as a “typical” name among African-American community, a large label that usually encompasses people from sixth-generation and younger Americans from direct African decent, to others who most recent ancestors come from Caribbean Islands- islands that branch from Trinidad to Hati. These are all very different cultures that choose very different types of names for their children.

Also that “walk the walk” thing; I understand what you mean, but that’s really negative stereotyping. I’m just going to jump to what you’re referring to- urban culture of African American ghettos. Gee, has gansta hip-hop painted us that bad? The truth is all African Americans from such areas don’t do “the walk” (I don't), nor do only only African Americans do it; Latinos, whites, Asians- anyone can “walk the walk.”


While I wouldn’t get mad at the labeling of a character as black, even if the labeling isn’t necessary. I would, however, get mad if he was written in a cartoonist stereotype, with some thick pusedo-name and some unhip walk like he has a hip problem. That was just something to be mindful of when writting him.

- Yoli

[JustinoXV]

"This is because the honest truth is they usually are. While I'm sure they exist, I've yet to see a man of African decent fighting a fire-breathing dragon on the cover of a book. I'm trained to just "make 'em white" by default in all books unless I'm told to switch to some other race."

There was a play in Harlem about the orishas from Santeria. All the actors were black.

I just watched a cartoon that took place in Peru. It was a Disney cartoon, and all the human characters were Quechuas/Incas.

So perhaps you should free your mind on assuming the character or hero is white. Remember the old envogue song, Free Your Mind?

I'm a screenwriter, and again, unless it's important to the story, race isn't generally specified. Any actor can play the role. Gina Torres, a black woman, played pirate Queen Nebula on Hercules. Yet her race wasn't an issue. Storm, a member of the mutant X-Men, is black. But the X-Men have never really dealt with racial issues per say (those mutants are hated and feared, they aren't a race)

[KLH]

Getting back to the original post, I think it depends entirely on your character's POV. If you're doing a deep POV, and your character is middle-class white with middle-class background and relatively homogenous community, then yeah, s/he just might notice a darkly-skinned person, and would note that. But if the black guy has dreads, it's possible those would be noted sooner - "he had dreadlocks down to the small of his back" and no mention of skin color. If, however, your character is, say, a black chick in high school, she might not describe the black guy except that he was good-looking, but she might say the guy standing next to him had 'pasty-looking skin.'

In one of my stories, I have two half-japanese characters, three northern european characters, and a main character who's Peruvian. Of the three northern european characters, one has spent considerable time traveling all over the world; he doesn't see 'Indian' (dot or feather), he sees his colleage who's Navajo, and the Jain at the grocery store, the Vietnamese girl at the bus stop, and the Japanese businessman on the subway. The Peruvian-born, American-raised girl sees the tanned man in uniform, the guy with the thick beard at the grocery store, the Asian girl at the bus stop, and the Asian guy on the subway. The half-Japanese girl sees the Indian coworker, the wierd looking foreign guy at the grocery store, and barely notes the Asian folks except to like the girl's skirt and think the guy reading the hentai manga is creepy.

What your character has been exposed to, over his/her lifetime, and the expectations of that character, will determine in great part what that character notices.This doesn't necessarily tell me anything about your politics, but it will (hopefully) tell me a great deal about your character.

[Jules Hall]

You see when I was poor we could not afford ghettos. So I was raised in a slum.

However someone decided that slum was not a politically correct term.

The Politically correct term is Ghetto.

But ghetto and slum don't mean the same thing. A slum is an area of cheap, badly maintained housing. A ghetto is an area which is inhabited almost exclusively by a minority group. Usually ghettos are slums, but you can certainly have slums that aren't ghettos.

I believe that is British usage.

I don't think so. Unfortunately I'm at home and my Oxford Manual of Style is in the office, but I'd certainly never write it like that -- it just doesn't make sense for it to be capitalised. I'd say it's more likely to just be an error.

[SRHowen]

I agree with most of what SRHowen said, except on one point. As a black, African American, Caribbean American (whatever you want to call me) who loves sci-fi I consider every character presented to me in any sci-fi or fantasy book as white unless otherwise indicated through direct language or environment. Even the elves are white


LOL--I did say and maybe not. I also have to chime in here, when did you ever see an Indian, American Indian what the heck have you on the cover of a book--other than those romance books (Captive Bride et el) Where the strong brave is a white guy with long hair. Even Tony Hillermans books have a art design cover, no picture. And all those pre-historic books, most of them picture the ever popular white folks with long hair ideas.

Makes me fear what my main character will look like on the cover of my book when it comes out.

Back to my thoughts again, use what your main character uses.

And if you want to use Ghetto, or Hip Hop, get the two straight. The entire Hip Hop movement is very different from the Ghetto thing. My very Indian looking teen is into the Ghetto thing crossed with goth skater kid stuff--I can't wait for him to grow out of this.

Shawn

[KLH]

I think Tony Hillerman lucked out, though. At least with a strong graphic cover, there's no way the publishing company can screw up like they do on some novels. I don't find it a pet peeve when the novel doesn't match the cover; I just think of Charles DeLint, complaining about the cover of Jack of Kilrowan or Kinrowan (something like that) - a rather pre-raphaelite woman with low flowing auburn hair, holding a chalice. Looks pretty - except the story's about a young blonde girl who chops her hair to about 1" long in the very first paragraph. Makes you wonder if the cover artist even read the story!

[Greenwolf103]

I think I need to clarify something here...

When I said my character "walks the walk," I didn't mean "walk" in the literal sense.

Neither of my black characters in this scene act in a stereotypical role. At least, I hope not.

I wrote the scene, though. One thing about where they live is that there's more black people there than white people. My POV character is reminded of this when she opens the door and sees the other black character standing there. She thinks how she rarely, if ever, has a white visitor.

As for race: Noting a color can be tricky. A white person can also be European by birth, a black person can come from Africa, Jamaica, etc., and a brown person can be a Mexican, Hispanic, Indian or even American Indian. My 2nd black character is minor, so I don't need to get into what his origin is, although I will say he was born in L.A. and, if you go back farther enough, his native country is Africa. (Just like my POV character's, though she was not born there.)

[ybest]

Back to the orginal topic, I remember something my fiction-writing professor said when I was thinking of this last night: EWCM (Every Word Cost Money). It's a very professional, non-artistic way of looking at things- but hey, he was working towards making publishable writers.

He'd always write in red ink "Why?" of "So?" next to portions of a story. Since EWCM, he'd challenge anything written, sometimes just for just to defend the work presented. Unless you could answer why a piece was need (like KLH, maybe it's just a POV issue) he'd cut a line through it and call it "unneeded noise" that distracted from the story.

::shurg:: I dunno, I thought of it last night after I left the board and thought I'd come back and share.

-Yoli

{PS- JustinoXV, the key word I used in my first post is usually are- I'm not talking about the exceptions to the rule. There are always exceptions to the rule (i.e. what's done most of the time).}

[Euan Harvey]

Back to original post:

I think the decision to say whether the POV character is a particular race is one that needs to be thought about carefully. After you've done it, the reader is going to be bringing a bunch of baggage with them as they read the rest of your story.

In "Pick-Up" by Charles Willeford, the narrator is black, but the author doesn't tell you this until the very end of the book. The last few lines are as follows:

I left the shelter of the awning and walked up the hill in the rain.
Just a tall, lonely Negro.
Walking in the rain.

When I read it for the first time, my whole perception of what had been happening in the book changed.

[maestrowork]

Depending on the skills of the author, that could have been as bad as telling us "this has all been a dream..."

[Euan Harvey]

Well yes, it could have been, but it wasn't. And after all, the book passed the acid test -- an editor paid money for it.

[JimMorcombe]

When we describe someone,we do it by highlighting particular features, not by describing them in detail. We leave it up to the reader's imagination to fill in the details.

"A man with a broken nose" or "A man with a jagged scar" on his cheek".

Usually we pick out features that have some kind of "resonance" to them. In the above example, both hint as a life of violence. The scar has resonence of evil bad-guys, simply because it has been used in this type of character so often over the generations.

The way in which we describe someone as "black" also decides on the personality and past of the character. This is particularly so if it is not a main character. In this case, the reader will pull a stereotype out of their own mind and use that stereotype to flesh out the character.

Look at your description and try to see what stereotype jumps into your mind. If it brings up "Bill Cosby" when it should be grining up "Mr T" then you've got it wrong.

From a writer's perspective, "black" resonates better with a sleezy underworld character than with a respected brain surgeon. It does this for exactly the same reasons that "black" is not Politically Correct. The writer's task is to make use of the resonances associated with "black" without being obvious enough for the reader to notice.

A writer should be able to use the resonances of a word within English without condoning those stereotypes - just as a writer should be able to write about murder without condoning it.

[Writing Again]

From a writer's perspective, "black" resonates better with a sleezy underworld character than with a respected brain surgeon. It does this for exactly the same reasons that "black" is not Politically Correct. The writer's task is to make use of the resonances associated with "black" without being obvious enough for the reader to notice.

Huh?

OK, I'm in northern California here. Only two words are used around here and black is the choice of those who are not racists. There is definitely no connotation of "sleazy underworld character." In fact we do have doctors here who are black.

[maestrowork]

Same here, like what the heck is "black resonates better with sleezy underworld character"? Huh?

[STORMTURNER]

...if u don't the reader will assume he's white. U don't want that do u?

[SRHowen]

I agree--that ticked me off a bit to say the least--the sleazy underworld bit.

Goes right with the editor who told me my book didn't work for him because Indians didn't drive Jaguars and weren't trauma surgeons. (And he used the word Native Americans)

Shakes head.

Shawn

[maestrowork]

Shawn :rollin

If I hear another joker saying "all Asians are good at Maths and have big brains and small p*****" I'm going to shoot someone.

[SRHowen]

lol--it's all in how you use it. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I kindly sent a picture of my 7 series BMW to the editor--my cousins and I standing beside the car in full regalia. I also sent him a picture of a friend of mine, a trauma surgeon in WI and about as Indian looking (in the stereo type way) as a person can get--his graduation picture from John Hopkins.

Never did hear from that guy again, but hey maybe I'm just too lazy and drunk to go to the mail box.

Shawn

[HConn]

It's all right, maestro. We know you aren't good at math and that you don't have a big brain.

:)

So... pardon my ignorance here, but I'm a Philly kid. What's so wrong with the term "Native American?" I've been trying to figure out why it's offensive.

[reph]

What's so wrong with the term "Native American?" I've been trying to figure out why it's offensive.

Shawn will explain it to you after she deposits today's receipts from the casino.

[HConn]

I'm sorry, reph. I don't understand that remark.

[maestrowork]

I think Reph is being ironic. I'll let Shawn explain, too. But think about the meaning of "Native American" and think about what America is like now...

I think...

(and H, I AM good at Math but I don't have a big brain. :lol )

[STORMTURNER]

Because their native wasn't America. They 'discovered' America. They left their native land. The Irish assumed it after that. Maybe they should be called the Native Americans. That oughta piss some more folks off, huh?

[reph]

HConn, I was being ironic, or something like that. Maybe you'd have to live in California to understand. Doesn't the rest of the country have Indian casinos?

[JustinoXV]

"A ghetto is an area which is inhabited almost exclusively by a minority group. Usually ghettos are slums, but you can certainly have slums that aren't ghettos."

Etymology: Italian, from Venetian dialect ghèto island where Jews were forced to live, literally, foundry (located on the island), from ghetàr to cast, from Latin jactare to throw -- more at JET
1 : a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
2 : a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
3 a : an isolated group <a geriatric ghetto> b : a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity <stuck in daytime TV's ghetto>


Ghettos are places where people are FORCED to live. A Native American reservation, by this definition, is a ghetto. Housing projects where blacks were pushed into decades ago would also fit these definition.

However, just because an area has few white people in it does not make it a ghetto. Arguably, since no one is forced to live anywhere in the US these days, we don't have ghettos in the original sense of the word at all. But we do have plenty of slums, and that isn't limited to blacks or so called non whites.

A trailer park full of whites is very much a slum.

[STORMTURNER]

In my and Sir Bill Cosby's defense, "ghetto" is a state of mind. When construction of homes/apartments are first built, they don't look like the "projects" or "ghetto" that could be classified years later once the ghetto state of mind has set. At first, it is affordable to all, but becomes irrigated by the poisoning of the ghetto-minded whom believe they don't have a chance at surviving in Corporate America so their way out is lying, stealing, cheating, killing, gambling...

Have you ever seen an area constructed to look like a ghetto? I've yet to witness that one.

[SRHowen]

Sorry, I'm Eastern Band Cherokee, we're poor Indians--no casinos. And if you follow the news much of the money made in them doesn't go down hill anyway.

My point is not that Native American is confusing, or offensive, and no we don't think of ourselves as the first discoverers of America (Turtle Island that is).

What if you learned a new language and in that language the name for your people, no matter their race was Smeeches (thank you Dr Suse) anyway, along comes someone years later and decides that you are no longer Smeeches--it's offensive and untrue. This person is not a Smeech, but now you are Native, or Indigenous, or any other PC term that can be thought of. Many of your historical speeches are now not PC because the horror of some chief using the term Smeech.

Sigh, I could go on and on--but I will refer you to someone who can explain it so much better--David Yeagley (http://www.vdare.com/misc/yeagley_indian.htm)

As to slums and Ghettos--in the late 60's and early 70's on the a reservation in NC the government built homes. They said hey lets build some nice homes and let the Indians live in them. This was a great media event, like Habitat for Humanity is now.

Nice houses, fancy light fixtures and dishwashers flashed across the TV screens--the high voltage wires marched across the rez and showed up in those pictures. Years later a certain unnamed TV documentary showed those houses, now looking the worse for the wear and they showed people hauling water in buckets into them, and black ceilings form oil lamps and talked about how the Indians had squandered the gift of houses.

My grandmother died of a heart attack carrying water into on of those nice houses--

Why? When she had a nice new sink?

Because there was no electricity and running water--in any of them. In fact they were built where they didn't even have access to electricity at the time. And water, wells and plumbing don't magically appear. So the nice new houses became a slum in the eyes of the media--

Shawn

[JustinoXV]

"In my and Sir Bill Cosby's defense, "ghetto" is a state of mind. When construction of homes/apartments are first built, they don't look like the "projects" or "ghetto" that could be classified years later once the ghetto state of mind has set."

Wrong. The massive housing projects in cities like Chicago, Detroit, etc were constructed to house poor people on welfare, many of whom were black.

A lot of landlords didn't want tenants who were paying for their housing through section 8 or other welfare programs.

So housing was build especially for these people!

When you concentrate a bunch of poor people into an area, put them on welfare, and then let things stay like for generations, of course you end up with ghetto mentalities. What good example would children have growing up if mommy is a crackhead and daddy is a jailbird?

In downtown Los Angeles, in the past, homeless and low income people were pushed into a certain area of the city (Skid Row) precisely because people in other parts of the city didn't want them there.

In Italy, Jewish people were forced to live in certain run down poor areas. That is a ghetto.

[Euan Harvey]

In Italy, Jewish people were forced to live in certain run down poor areas. That is a ghetto.

It wasn't just Italy; that kind of ghetto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto) was all over Europe. Although the Jews were legally forced to live in the ghetto, it did not necessarily connote deprivation. Some medieval ghettos were among the most prosperous parts of the cities at the time.

Which was why the Christian Kings kept trying to extort money from the Jews, but that's another story...

[HConn]

Thanks for the link.

[Euan Harvey]

Y'welcome.

[HConn]

Oops. Sorry, Euan. I was thanking Shawn. I didn't even notice you had a link there. But hey, now I've clicked on it and it's great! Thanks!

[Euan Harvey]

Ahrum. :o

[SRHowen]

David is a great speaker and his views are practical and down to earth. LOL Though some might disagree, but I thought his words on race names were relevent here.

Shawn

[STORMTURNER]

My point was, JustinoXV:

When the housing projects were constructed, they looked decent. The tenants tore them down to make them look like a ghetto. No architect builds raggedy homes.

[SRHowen]

No one tore them down. As with the housing built on the reservations with no access to water or electric, and pre casinos (no money) the houses can't be maintained so they end up looking like a slum. Which starts a downward spiral.

You see the nice cars and messed up houses ready to fall down. Why is that?

Well, did you know that if you apply for state aid (welfare) that in most states a rental car (a car bought under lease agreement) does not have to be listed as an asset, while a home does.

Taxes are less on a run down house.

And a whole host of other problems go with being poor.

We've totally gotten off topic. And into an area where feeling are going to run high. No one wants to live in a crappy house, but many don't have a choice. Fix up your house in a crappy place and it gets robbed or vandalized. Like I said a spiral down the hill and into the ground.

[JimMorcombe]

Supose you read the following...

A tall black man stepped out from the shadows. He looked straight at me for a moment, just long enough to let me know he'd seen what I'd done. Then he contemptuously turned his back on me and walked away.

Okay, what was the black man wearing and why?

If you substitute "Italian" for "black", is he still in the same clothes? How about Chinese, Arab, etc?

[detante]

Supose you read the following...

Armani.

Not because of the racial qualifier, but because he was a tall man with a contemptuous expression that stepped out of the shadows and left without interfering. I pictured something out of a spy novel or a mob story.

The more I think about it, the more it seems the word "contemptuously" is what defined the character most for me. It implies a smug arrogance that says more about the character to me than his race. IMHO


Jen

[maestrowork]

When it comes to race, people try to be PC or sensitive or whatever.

For me, it's all about details. What kind of details you want your readers to experience. If a tall, mean man is enough, then so be it. Many writers are satisfied with that level of details and let the readers fill in the blanks. But if you really want the readers to see a tall, mean, black man, then WRITE it. It's all about level of details, like how a director would cast a scene and dress the set. Someone like James Cameron would be meticulous with every single details down to the color of an actor's teeth. But some other person would be very broad and vague -- the audience won't notice anyway.

Does it matter to your story whether the man is black or not? Maybe, maybe not. If it's not important, your readers will forget about that anyway. As a writer, though, you have to decide how much details you want to use to make the scene vivid to your readers.

[Greenwolf103]

In one novel I read, I didn't know a character was black until another character made a racist comment against him. Didn't really appreciate being left in the dark there all that time (almost anybody can have black hair and brown eyes!) so I think if it's supposed to be there for the sake of what happens in a scene, then, minor or supporting character, it's a good idea to let readers know.

[SRHowen]

From my novel Medicine Man--the reader already knows that the main character (the I character) is Indian. John is his best friend, this is 45 pages into the novel and in the chapter John is introduced. Do I ever come right out and say John is Black, no, but through dialog (internal and external) the reader knows.

My Grandfather looked at John and pursed his lips in a way I knew meant he wouldn’t tell me with John present. He would most likely not tell me at all. I shouldn’t have asked such a thing in front of a white-man, although John did not qualify as white.

So at that point all the reader knows is John is not white, nor is he Indian, since the grandfather would then not have a problem with him.

Later . . .

"Christ, man, people would kill for less than you have.” He looked around my house. “Hell, you’ve done better than anyone I know. You have magic in your touch I’ve never understood. When you’re called in, patients who should be dead, live. Lord knows, if I ever became one with a car, I’d want you in the arena.”

“In the spectrum of the world? What have I done to make it a better place? For my People, for any people?”

“My own people call me an Oreo Cookie,” John said. “It doesn’t do any good. I thought if I got a good education I would be a role model--no one wants a role model anymore, they want an easy hand out.”

Is it important John is black, maybe, maybe not, but I think if you take a character's race and then their opinions it gives the reader a better overall idea of the character, of who he is and who those characters around him are as well. You are identified with your "crowd" as much as by your own person.

But you don't have to come right out and name a character's race either.

Shawn

Edited to add--one beta reader had a lot of trouble with the Indian characters using the term white-man or white-men he thought it was raciest.

[maestrowork]

If the character's race is not white (the default for most American readers), we might want to indicate the race as soon as the character is introduced. Either through direct mention ("he's Indian") or through other means like Shawn's shown us. Don't wait until 25 pages later, then say, by the way, John is black.

[Greenwolf103]

Again, it comes right back to what the reader sees in their mind as they read a scene/your story. I fixed that scene to indicate my character's race, but only for the sake of letting readers get a better idea of what this kid looked like. I don't think it was enough to say "he had black curly hair and the mud caked on the knees of his pants gave her a pretty good idea of what he'd been up to." It's true most American white people will visualize a person who is white, so letting them know a character is a different race might be a good idea.

Shawn said:

one beta reader had a lot of trouble with the Indian characters using the term white-man or white-men he thought it was raciest

I didn't realize anyone could consider that to be racist. Shawn, I have a (unpublished) children's book with American Indian characters. It's written with an American Indian POV and the white characters in the book are referred to, well, as "the white man." Isn't that how the American Indian population has always referred to the white population?

[SRHowen]

Most refer to them in their native language which mean a variety of things held from the past.

But this beta reader thought I was presenting very prejudiced view of white folks as being the bad guys. And he didn't like that they refereed to the non-Indians as whites. He took offense at that.

When you write a story from a racial POV then the views of that POV person should be there--the views of that one person. You shouldn't make the POV character PC if they aren't.

When we first got here I was shocked to hear the word nigger used -- a lot. Many of the older people on our street still use it all the time. If I wrote a story about this street I would have the lady(if I can even call her that with a straight face and no vomit in my mouth) across the street call a tall black man African American--she'd call him a nigger.

She also called the police on me because I stand in my yard every morning and greet the sun. She said I was out there doing pot or something and she smelled it. (incense folks, cedar and sage if you must know)

And she also refers to Indians as dirty Injuns (I didn't know anyone said that anymore--Injuns) or lazy Injuns or drunk--you get it.

Stay in POV, how would your POV character see the other character? How will they think of that character? Stay there and your story will ring true.

Shawn