Antagonist Helping Protagonist

Without deception on the part of the antagonist? Can you clarify if there is deception at all?

I think a huge chunk of the appeal of Smallville is the tragic foreknowledge on the part of the audience that Lex and Clark will one day become bitter enemies. And there is no deception there. Lex has nothing to hide. He and Clark are legitimately friends at this time.

And then there's Sky High where the closing line of the films was


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WARNING!! SPOILER FOLLOWS for the film SKY HIGH

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SPOILER!!

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"My girlfriend became my arch enemy, my arch enemy became my best friend, and my best friend became me girlfriend."

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END SPOILER

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I think loads of films--especially recent ones because of the hyper-chronic need of "the twist ending" --have a bad guy who feigns friendship out of a deceptivemaster plan, and then we find out later he/she was really evil all along. But LEGITIMATE friendships that turn sour are another thing. Or else a bad guy who relents and then becomes a good guy can also happen (can't think of a bad-guy-who-repents off the top of my head, but they do exist).

And do you want them to START as friends and BECOME enemies? or START as enemies and BECOME friends? The recent Spider-Man 3 (I give no spoilers here on that film) has just such a scenario. And perhaps Darth Vader from the entire Star Wars series qualifies as well.

NicoleMD said:

I guess she's more of a psycho maternal figure...in her mind she's doing good, but she's really just got a twisted way of thinking. Everyone loves and respects her except for one character who can see right through her. Even when he tries to tell the authorities, no one beleives she could be capable of such a thing.

So she's not deceiving the main character, but her actions have to be deceptive in order to advance her goals. My main character doesn't even "meet" her until well into the movie, but she's known him since he was an infant. That's the plan, anyway.

The Darth Vader example is helpful in that regard.

Nicole

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This still isn't clicking in my mind. And it's probably not that you aren't explaining enough. The problem is more likely that I just can't grasp those kinds of nuances of deception or misunderstanding or misdirection. I have confessed before that misdirection is not one of my strengths in writing. So a better writer than I could probably help you here.

NicoleMD said:

So anyone have any examples of movies where the antagonist and protagonist work together for much of the movie? I can think of Unbreakable, but I'm at a block after that.

Thanks,

Nicole

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Ransom, Carlito's Way, The Usual Suspects.

I think like houseboy's examples there are a lot of situations where the bad guy and good guy work together but where the bad guy is being deceptive (like Othello or something) and the good guy doesn't know it yet.

But from your initial description, the first thing that came to mind is Magneto and Professor X's relationship (largely in the comics) where they worked together initially, and even now they have similar goals about mutant rights, but one is militant and one is peaceful, which puts them at odds. They were based on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, both of whom wanted equality, but one of whom used peaceful means and the other who was willing to use less peaceful ones.

NicoleMD said:

I've been struggling throughout my script to figure out what my villain hates so much about my MC, but now I realize that she actually likes him a lot. They share a similar vision, but in Act III she takes this vision to a whole new level that's not good for anybody.

So anyone have any examples of movies where the antagonist and protagonist work together for much of the movie? I can think of Unbreakable, but I'm at a block after that.

Thanks,

Nicole

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What is important in trying to understand this is to differentiate in our minds between "Protagonist/Antagonist" and "good guy/bad guy" or "hero/villain".

They are not the same thing.

The Antagonist is simply the main character that opposes the need/goal of the Protagonist.

That character need not be evil in any way, shape or form.

Watch a movie like, "A Tree Grows In Brooklyn."

What is so remarkable about that movie is that you clearly have a battle being fought in that film -- the hard-headed mother and the alcholic/dreamer of a father are fighting, in essence for the soul of the young daughter.

But who is the Protagonist? The Father? He dies three-quarters of the way through the movie. The mother? The daughter?

You can actually construct a perfectly convincing case for each.

The dreamer of a father, in order to save her daughter - to keep her from having to leave school, decides to give up his job singing and try to find work that he hates -- and it kills him, literally.

The mother, attending the father's funeral, sees the incredible outpouring of love on the part of the community, that she never dreamed of, is transformed.

And the daughter, help her widowed mother when she goes into labor (and it was the fact that a new child was coming that forced the decision to take her out of school -- they only had enough money to pay for one, and she insisted that the younger son go) explains her reasons -- it was because she wanted so desperated to go and her brother didn't that she insisted that she be taken out. Because she knew that somehow or other, she'd find a way to finish her schooling. If they'd taken her brother out, she knew that he'd never go back.

And suddenly, for the daughter, who had previously felt such anger for her mother, and idolized her late father, understood -- started to grow up.

So -- Father changes. Mother changes. Daughter changes.

And not a "villain" in sight.

NMS

NMS, I like your analysis. It reminds me of My Big Fat Greek Wedding which blew a lot of doors off in Hollywood, partly because it had no discernible antagonist (and mostly because it was one of the biggest and truest "sleepers" in many years). Was her family the antagonist?? She never once stood up and told-off her family. A lesser script might have had a showdown of that nature where she might finally blow her stack and put SOMEBODY back in their place somewhere near the film's end. But it never happened. She just kept on enduring her family's sillyness, smiling at them, loving them, and trying to keep it together.