How much rewriting/editing is enough?

[Stace001]

Hi All,

I am currently editing my first novel (I've put my second on the back-burner for now) and I was wondering how much is enough? This is the second time since I completed the manuscript that I've edited, and I'm still finding things I could change etc. I tend to add to the storyline everytime I edit, and I don't know if that's a good thing or just a time consuming thing. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[SimonSays]

Stace -

It's a tough question to answer - everyone has a different process. Some people never reach a point where they think they are finished rewriting - but those people never get published - because they don't send their work out. I once knew a guy who had been working on one screenplay for 12 years. He would never show it to anyone for feedback 'because it "wasn't ready".

You will always find things to change or think of a better way you could have written a scene - even after if it's in print. So that's not a good test for knowing when it's done.

But if your gut tells you the storyline additions are making it better, than chances are pretty good that you are making it better.

[Stace001]

Thanks SimonSays, good advice. I usually always listened to my gut feeling, and I'll do the same here. The additions I've been making to the story, in my humble opinion, ARE making the story better, so I'll keep at it. Thanks again.

[Jamesaritchie]

Enough is enough, and it's a different amount for each writer and each novel. Ask yourself whether the changes are making things better, or merely different. If better, they're good. If merely different, it's time to mail the novel.

[Euan Harvey]

Several writing books I've read (can't remember the titles now) say that as soon as you start changing things back to the way they were in the first draft (after you've changed them once for the second), then it's time to stop.

[katdad]

Your question comes at an interesting time for me. My 1st novel is at the agent and I'm now editing my 2nd.

Jeez am I tired!!

I've been through it for 2-3 times now, and it's nearly ready for my read-through.

I am not finding new stuff to put in (that occurred in the early revisions), but I'm constantly tweaking. And for the better. I find better ways to structure a sentence or describe an event, make the dialogue more immediate.

Let me recommend that you read the entire novel aloud to yourself as a final-stage editing procedure. It's very helpful in finding awkward passages.

[maestrowork]

When you find yourself tweaking here and there, dressing up a sentence that is perfectly fine as it was, adding nothing pertinent to the plot or character... it's time to stop.

[Nateskate]

Well, another question is this, if you have a great story line, and good writing skills, but have some areas that are weaker...how much editing are they willing to put into your work? How far are they willing to go?

My gut feeling has been that they want something that is almost shelf ready from the getgo, although they'll change it in some ways regardless?

[katdad]

dressing up a sentence that is perfectly fine as it was etc...
Depends.

When I said "tweaking" I meant to imply that I was also improving the text. I do agree that when I find myself worrying about whether to use one word or a synonym too much, I need to quit.

What I do find is that after I read through the final revision carefully, fix all the problems, then I'm ready for the audio step.

I read the book aloud. Every single word aloud.

I strongly recommend this. It's amazing how many rough sentences or choppy phrases you will find. When I read aloud and make the changes, I find the whole thing is much smoother and far more rhythmic.

And as with most of us, reading in hard copy on a printed page, errors we skipped over on the screen will jump out at us. Why I don't know, but it's true for me.

By next week I'll be "ready for my closeup" and sit down to read aloud. Next I'll print a copy and repeat. Then the book will be ready for the agent.

[Stace001]

Thank you to everyone for your wonderful advice. Katdad, I especially like the idea of reading the story aloud and printing it out. I've always printed each chapter after I've edited it, and you're right, for some reason mistakes I'd missed on the screen JUMP RIGHT OUT AT ME!!! Strange, isn't it. But the idea of reading aloud makes sense.

Thanks again to all, you've been very helpful.:D

[katdad]

But the idea of reading aloud makes sense.
I didn't always do this but since I started, I've found that I can spot flaws that I tend to skim over if reading silently.

It's very helpful. I think you'll see how much, when you try it. Do a couple of chapters as a test and see.

[maestrowork]

I use the computer to read it for me. Or you can have someone else read it for you. But reading it out loud is a wonderful method to catch bad proses or errors. Typos such as face/pace or walk/talk, which "spell check" programs won't find, can be easily detected if you/someone/computer reads it.

I use Microsoft eBook Reader with the voice module plus AT&T true voices. It almost sounds like a real person is reading it.

[Stace001]

Thanks Maestro, that sounds like a great idea. I'll give it a try.:D

[katdad]

As a followup, I finished my 2nd novel a couple days ago.

Next I read it to myself aloud, made changes where I found it needed, then ran a final spellcheck and looked for mechanical glitches (2 blank spaces between words, etc)

Yesterday I printed it out and now I'm re-reading it again, and as usual, finding typos I missed on screen. The book is 300 pages and 65,000 words, and I'm halfway through the re-read.

I expect to have it ready for the agent just after the first of the year.

[SFTor]

Hello guys, I'm new here, but will add my experience to the mix.

I have written a viking novel (100,000 words) and was too heavy on the Nordic tone in the first draft. The more I rewrite the more I find that the less there is of the Norsiness the better it gets. (How's that for a sentence?)

Makes for quite the rewriting process, at any rate. It's a little like combing a poodle.

[EnitaMeadows]

I edited my last MS at least fifteen times before finally sending it out for consideration. Mainly because I refused to let it be until I felt comfortable with it. In contrast, I only went through one or two edits for the one before that, which I felt comfortable with from the very first draft. Both were acceptances. I think it all depends on how confident you feel with that particular work.

[EzzyAlpha]

I don't edit much.

I do a few read overs, cut unnecessary things, fix grammar and spelling and show it to some people. Then I change stuff I hadn't noticed.

[RichardGarfinkle]

A friend of mine has an expression 'polishing dirt'. It's when you are fussing with every little detail trying to make it perfect. If you're there, stop.

I've found that the better the work is, the more the writer can only see the flaws in it. That's why the most valuable thing for a writer is to have some reliable readers who can tell you what they think. They don't have to be people who like your writing, but they do have to be able to see if it works or not.

[Aggy B.]

I don't edit much.

I do a few read overs, cut unnecessary things, fix grammar and spelling and show it to some people. Then I change stuff I hadn't noticed.

Right. But you're not seeking publication. So the only criteria for you is "Looks good to me." (Which is fine if that's all you want to do.)

But someone looking to meet publication standards has to learn when "Looks good to me" also means "This is the very best I can tell this story given my current skill set."

[EzzyAlpha]

It's far better than sitting on the same work for months.

There is a point you just have to stop nitpicking.

[Aggy B.]

It's far better than sitting on the same work for months.

There is a point you just have to stop nitpicking.

I'm not saying "Nitpick something to death." I am saying that for those who want to publish their work, editing and revision is a learned skill because it's more than just "I'm happy with this."

In high school I wrote 'til I was happy with stuff, then moved on. I enjoyed writing, but I had no plans to get it published.

Now I write 'til I'm happy with stuff AND I think that it meets the standards of whatever market I'm trying to sell to. I enjoy writing, but I also understand that if I want to get paid for it, there are skills to be learned and work that has to go into the process.

Aggy, thought this was that other thread someone started last week about when to stop editing

[EzzyAlpha]

I did know someone who tried to write professionally but was so paranoid with editing she never submitted anything.

Extremes are never good really.

[Jamesaritchie]

Now I write 'til I'm happy with stuff AND I think that it meets the standards of whatever market I'm trying to sell to. I enjoy writing, but I also understand that if I want to get paid for it, there are skills to be learned and work that has to go into the process.



Well, sure, who's going to submit anything they think isn't up to publication standards? But thinking it is doesn't make it so, and thinking it isn't doesn't make this so, either.

Editing to some extent is usually necessary, but there is no set amount, and revisions depends on how well you wrote in the beginning.

It's certainly possible to under edit, but it's equally possible to completely ruin a manuscript by not knowing when to stop. Of the two, basic story and characters being equal, the first is easier to fix, and the one an editor will most likely ask to be revised. The second is often irredeemable.

I've been writing for thirty-two years, I've sold a bunch of stuff, and I still don't have the faintest idea of what "publication standard" even means. I know something meets an editor's standards if he buys it, and doesn't meet his standards if he rejects it.


All I can do is get a story to the point where I like it. . .or to the point where I hate it, but see nothing to change.

"Looks good to me" is the only criteria I've found that lets me sell anything.

[Aggy B.]

I've been writing for thirty-two years, I've sold a bunch of stuff, and I still don't have the faintest idea of what "publication standard" even means. I know something meets an editor's standards if he buys it, and doesn't meet his standards if he rejects it.

Hmm. Not the faintest idea? I happen to know that something that would be perfectly suitable for Cricket would be not so good for Tor.com.

Maybe I should have said "expectations". You know, publication expectations about whether a story is in the language, tone, genre, length, style of a particular market. Once I started editing based on those "publication expectations" I started selling. (And yes, this does sometimes mean tweaking a story between one rejection and the next submission to meet a slightly different set of criteria.)

But that's just how it works for me.

[Rosethorn]

This is a question I'm always asking myself. My problem is each time I go through my novel, I find plot points I HATE and have to rewrite, and when I do that, it causes pieces earlier in the book to need rewriting. I'm on my third time through and this time, I'm determined to just do the basic rewrites and not change any of the major plot points. Wish me luck!

[vrabinec]

That's one of the real arts in the whole thing, isn't? When to stop?

[jaksen]

When you are satisfied, you stop. I mean, how can you go beyond that?

[flapperphilosopher]

Goooooooooood question. I went through three drafts of my novel that were completely re-written start to finish, with many scenes completely re-written a couple more times on top of that, then did a bunch of more detailed editing. At that point I'd written over 250,000 words for a 54,000 page novel. So I thought it was done.

I set it aside for a couple months. When I could actually look at it again [after a bit of a crash once I came off the high of writing it], I realized... no. It still needs work. LOTS. Some restructuring, re-writing, major cutting, line editing, etc. I'm just about done with all that and I'll set it aside for a couple weeks again and cross my fingers that this time it's ENOUGH... I ---ing hope so!!!

I guess my answer to your question is when I feel satisfied it's as good as I can make it, and it's done what I want it to do. When I can go through the whole scene and not think of anything that should be better. When the whole section fits together just like it's supposed to. When no lines sound stupid to me. When readers aren't like, "it's good, but I don't get this part". When I'm reading it and it affects ME emotionally (the last time I read it, I had to try not to cry, even though I know it exactly... I consider that a good sign). It's like love... when you know, you just KNOW...

[Mharvey]

I've heard it said before on this forum: you know you're absolutely done when you can read your entire manuscript and only add a single coma on page 194, then go back a couple of hours later and remove it.

In another words, you're never really done rewriting - but at some point, you just have to cut yourself off and go for gold.

[MelodySRV]

Usually three or four edits is enough, but if you are finding large things that still need changing, then you might need to go through it one more time.
But if you are only finding lots of little changes that aren't related to grammar or spelling, I'd say you are in a good place to start publishing!

[dawinsor]

I'm totally useless to anyone on this. I love revising. My agent has to slap me away to make me stop.