First time advances

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michelle217

Those are great links. Thanks for sharing them. Just goes to show that anyone who thinks they can give up their day job immediately after having one book published is fooling themselves. :eek
 

Writing Again

Admittedly this was over twenty years ago, but the largest advance I ever received for a novel was $2,000.

Only one novel I ever wrote paid more than the advance -- That netted me a check for $30 so on that novel I made a grand total of $1,530.
 

Jamesaritchie

advance

Lot of apples and orages and mixing of publishers in that survey. To get an accurate picture of advances you first have to separate the publishers into appropriate groups or the numbers are all screwed up.
 

triceretops

Re: advance

John, those are great links and the info is appreciated. If you decide to do non-fiction books, count me in. I'll gladly turn over my woefully minuscule figures.

Tri
 

DarkHaven80

Re: advance

I heard first time books get around 2000 or less; I'd say it's pretty accurate from the website. And of course it DOES depend on genre and what's hot at the time. Dissapointing sure, but another reason not to get into writing expecting money :eek
 

maestrowork

Re: advance

I for one don't care much about advances. I care more about the actual royalties. ;)

Of course, if someone's going to give me a six figure advance, I'm not going to say no. That's money in my pocket. But $2000? I can take it or leave it.
 

katdad

Thanks for the info. It matches what I've learned in other places.

A first time novel will usually get $10,000+ if it's a normal genre novel (romance, mystery, etc.), and maybe in the $25k range if it's well received by the publisher.

If that book is a reasonable success then the next will likely sell for more, assuming it's either a sequel or within the same genre and of the same quality.
 

Writing Again

Re: advance

Of course, if someone's going to give me a six figure advance, I'm not going to say no. That's money in my pocket. But $2000? I can take it or leave it.

As I said, at the time $1,500 was standard. Minimum wage was $1 an hour and you could live for six months on $1,500.

I also earned $2 an hour and lived better on it then than I do on $20 an hour today. I believe that in order to get an equivalent advance today you would have to receive $15,000.
 

vstrauss

Ther are sizeable publishers that are still paying $1,000 as a first-time advance. $5,000 isn't unusual for a first-time sf/fantasy or mystery author. It's not totally unreasonable to hope for $10,000 for a genre novel but all things being equal (i.e., the publisher not identifying the first-timer for a special push or deciding that the novel is especially marketable), it is pretty optimistic.

Of course, it does depend on genre; I think that you can probably expect to be paid more for a debut commercial mainstream book than for a debut genre novel. Also, we're talking about large houses here; smaller publishers pay less. And of course if your book turns out to be successful, you'll earn beyond your advance.

My first advance, in 1982, was $2,500. My second, in 1984, was $5,000. How many industries are there where people can expect the same starting wage now that they might have gotten 20 years ago?

- Victoria
 

James D Macdonald

One big disadvantage to taking a six-figure advance is -- if you don't get six-figure sales, your next book will be very hard to market indeed.
 

STORMTURNER

I've heard horror stories that you should have at least 2 novels finished before you consider accepting an advance.

I also joined a writers group here in Atlanta and was told by a member that she and her artist received each a $12,000 advance early this year from a major pubco for a children's book, which still has not been published.

I can only hope to get there some day.
 

vstrauss

>>I've heard horror stories that you should have at least 2 novels finished before you consider accepting an advance.<<

Why?

>>she and her artist received each a $12,000 advance early this year from a major pubco for a children's book, which still has not been published.<<

A year to two years is a normal lag time. Publishers buy ahead.

- Victoria
 

maestrowork

I've heard 18 months lag time is pretty standard now. Sometimes shorter, sometimes longer.
 

Vulpes Sapien

Re: does

Sigh. I told my husband about all of this and he said, "You're telling me that you're busting your ass every night over this and you'll get paid a couple thousand for it?" "Well, maybe less," I replied.

So now my husband thinks I'm insane. (Not necessarily a new consideration, actually.) Of course, I've been trying to write stories since I stopped eating the crayons, and I'll continue to write whether anyone ever pays me. But ... money would be nice, too.
 

scullars

Hello, first time posting here, but wanted to pass along this link on Jervey Tervalon, who had the misfortune of being requested to return his $41,000 advance to his publishers. Maybe there should be an escrow account written into the terms with a time limit stipulation as to when the publisher is allowed to request a return of an advance.

<a href="http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/02/books-tervalon.php" target="_new">www.laweekly.com/ink/05/02/books-tervalon.php</a>
 

James D Macdonald

Let's see -- failed to turn in the book he'd contracted for, and was late to boot. Yeah, do something like that and they might ask you for the advance back.
 

Victim 655321

Agreed. Working with publishers is a business relationship, founded on contractual agreements. You don't follow through with your end of the agreement, they're under no obligation to follow through with theirs.
 

HapiSofi

Jim, begging your pardon, and allowing for the fact that we only have a single source of information on the story so far, it does sound to me like Mr. Tervalon got screwed. He'd talked to the house about what he was going to write as his third book of the contract, and they'd approved. The contracted-for version of what he was going to write was pretty darn sketchy. He wasn't writing a series.

Have you had full documentation on the particulars every time you and your publishers have verbally agreed to a change in what "book n of most recent contract" was going to consist of? Was the resulting book turned in even slightly late? I expect you'd feel ill-treated if your publisher had then declared that the book you delivered didn't fulfill the terms of the contract, and demanded that you pay back the advance.

These changes happen all the time. Authors have a rough idea of what they're going to want to write, the description goes into the contract, and later on they find they've got a different book coming out of their keyboard. If it's just a matter of swapping one non-series work of fiction for another, comparable work, there's no reason for the publisher to balk.

I'm also more than a little startled by the house so aggressively dunning Mr. Tervalon for the advance. I'd have expected them to draw up an agreement whereby they'd get first proceeds, up to the amount of the original advance, from the resale of the book to another publisher.

It sounds to me like the editor who originally liked Mr. Tervalon's work left the house, and the publicist who was familiar with it left as well. And if the only way to get his first novel past the acquisitions committee was to get rid of the interracial romance, I have to assume that the house doesn't have a lot of inherent sympathy for his subject matter. Did they truly not send the first one out for reviews, and him an unknown writer? That's just not right. Neither is leaving him without an editor for a prolonged period.

I wish I knew how the first two books shipped and sold, and whether the contract called for joint or separate accounting on the three books. I also wish I knew whether Atria's the kind of place that judges its editors on their profitability without regard to other circumstances, and whether Atria's handing back any other books this season, and what the house's overall profitability looks like just now.

At the point that things went to hell for Mr. Tervalon, after he'd delivered his book, Atria had three choices. They could formally accept the manuscript as delivered, which under most publishing contracts would mean he'd be due an additional on-delivery payment for it. Second option, they could put off acceptance while requesting various editorial changes. He makes the changes, they accept the revised manuscript, he gets his on-delivery, the book goes into production. Very common. Third option, they could declare that the book was wholly unacceptable, and ask for the return of their advance. That third option is a thing one seldom sees done. Fiction writers don't commonly forget how to write fiction between one book and another.

Fact is, Atria signed a newbie writer to a three-book non-series contract. They paid him a very substantial advance, and put his first two books into print. You don't do that if the man can't write.

There doesn't appear to have been any editorial negotiation. He doesn't mention his replacement editor asking to see how the book's coming along while he's writing it. Her rejection of it comes as a surprise to him. She also makes no attempt to get him to fix whatever it is she doesn't like about it. And I hate to give this one away, but you know, authors quite often run a little late on their manuscripts. Unless there's some reason for a book to be non-negotiably date-dependent -- like, it's about Halley's Comet, and it has to appear before the comet does -- refusing to accept a manuscript on grounds of non-catastrophically late delivery is what you do when you want to reject it anyway and are looking for an excuse.

This is what agents are for. Mr. Tervalon doesn't seem to have one. This leads me to wonder an odd thing: is that $41,000 Atria wants back the advance on the third book, or the advance on all three books? Normally I'd assume it's the advance on the third book.You don't ask for the advance back on books you've already put into print. But if it's just the advance on the third book, then I have to assume that Atria signed an unagented newbie writer to a six-figure contract. If Tervalon can't write, what the hell were they doing? And if he can write, what the hell are they doing now?

Non-series three-book contracts aren't an arbitrary arrangement. When you offer one to an author, you're betting that this is going to be an ongoing relationship. You're also betting that you'd rather have his next couple of books contractually tied up, so that you don't suddenly find yourself bidding against your competitors at Charnel House or Banana Books. The author in turn is betting that you'll do a good job on his books.

It takes a while to build a new author. It's truly said that publishing is an industry that introduces hundreds of thousands of new products every year, as opposed to the handful introduced by car or soap manufacturers. To the public, every book is an unknown product. That's rough. It's a little less rough when you have a known author, or a known series, or at least a known set of genre expectations. Still, a new author takes some doing. You want them to stick around so you get the benefit of all the work it took to teach the sales force to remember their name. If all goes well, they'll want to stick around too.

There's risk on both sides. All the parties to the contract knew that when they signed. If Atria is now regretting having done so, they're hardly the first publisher to be in that position, and it doesn't make it right for them to retroactively reassign all the risk to Mr. Tervalon.

Let me repeat before I end this that I have the story from a single source, and that authors have a great talent for coming up with plausible explanations. Interpretations may change. Still, it does appear to me that Mr. Tervalon has taken some hard knocks from his publisher.
 
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