If you could choose any publisher, explain who and why!

[Nateskate]

For some this may be a trick question, and a loyalty question. I hope that doesn't stop honest answers. But we'll understand that if someone picked you, that you might feel loyal to stay with the team you are on.

So, I'll solve that problem with a second question. If the publisher you have now is suddenly disolved, who would be your second choice?

However, for me, being that I'm a free agent, I have thought about this. I plan to write fiction and non-fiction, and would like different publishers for each. (If I have the luxury)

Who would you pick if you had a blank check and could choose any publishing co. in the world.

I think I'd like HarperCollins because they published some of my all time favorite books.

But you can tell me why you would choose someone else, and I hope you do, because perhaps you'll influence this bumpkin when the time comes to make the choice.

[mr mistook]

Oh, for me, that really IS the question. It's a foregone conclusion that anything I'll write is automatically rejected by the majors. I'd need to find some small, weird, possibly european publishing house, and God save me if I know who they are.

[Jules Hall]

If I look at my bookshelf I see HarperCollins, ORB, HarperCollins, Voyager (an HC imprint, if you aren't familiar with it), ACE, ROC, Voyager.

I think this means that HarperCollins produce most of the books I like, so they'd probably be the best for me. :)

[Stace001]

If HarperCollins wanted to publish my book, I think I'd be happy with that...:eek

[pdr]

Have a good look at their new contracts and read what other writers say about how they deal with their new authors. HarperCollins aren't kind if your second book doesn't sell as well as their accountants like. They are also said to be aiming at having no mid-list authors!!!!

[Nateskate]

Well, air it out my friends. If young Grasshopper has chosen foolishly, I'd like to know that now.

In fact, I'm hoping to hear the advantages and disadvantages of going with "the Majors". Someday I may have to make a choice, and I'd prefer to be informed.

If there are disadvantages, I'd really want to know about them.

[James D Macdonald]

Seriously, start with the majors. The money is nicer, the sales are nicer, and you're working with really top-flight people.

At pretty much any publisher your second book has to sell better than your first. That's why I say that selling the first book isn't hard. What's hard is selling the third.

Shoot high. You can always work your way down. It's harder to work your way up if you shoot low.

[cwfgal]

My first three novels were published by HarperCollins. My experiences with them were great up until they dropped me right after I turned in the final edits on book #3 and while we were negotiating a contract for book #4. At that time, they were undergoing a lot of internal juggling of personnel in the upper echelons and they were also in the process of unloading their mass market paperback authors (of which I was one) in preparation for buying Avon's paperbacks. Most of the paperback authors were either dropped or moved into hardcover. Apparently they didn't feel my books were strong enough to move me to the hardcover division, so I was dropped.

I say apparently because folks there were suddenly very tightlipped and explanations weren't forthcoming. To put it bluntly, my agent and I were both blindsided by the decision and the way it was handled wasn't exactly ethical.

I think the main decision makers involved back then are now gone. And overall my experiences with Harper were very good. They paid on time, they were accessible, and their contract was reasonable. My editor was a gem to work with (she is gone now and is currently working as an agent) and all the other people I dealt with directly were pleasant, helpful, and supportive. But my dealings with them ended 6 years ago so things may have changed.

Beth

[Greenwolf103]

I don't know why, but my gut tells me St. Martin's Press. For some reason, they seem to be a publisher I *should* be with. They rejected a manuscript I submitted ages ago but I won't overlook them the next go 'round.

Hey, a girl can dream!

[maestrowork]

I'd also say St. Martin. I've loved a lot of books they published, and somehow think I could fit in pretty well.

Of course, all is but wishful thinking at this point.

[Nateskate]

Beth, if you had three books published by HarperCollins, you are my hero. That in and of itself is more than most people can even dream of.

Rarified air I must say!

I compare the book market to the music industry. Some of the best groups in the world couldn't get on the radio anymore. There's a madness out there. In fact, for some of the once "Best of the Best", there is no marketing at all.

If you aren't flavor of the month, they relaly make it hard for you. I'm not latin, and I'm certainly not a former mousketeer, and I'm too old for a boy band. What's left for people like me?

Well, it's a shame that some of the greats will attempt a comeback, and their music isn't ever heard.

[mr mistook]

Nateskate,

I compare the book market to the music industry. Some of the best groups in the world couldn't get on the radio anymore. There's a madness out there. In fact, for some of the once "Best of the Best", there is no marketing at all.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the music industry. It's criminal! There are so many brilliant artists out there, still working - touring - and cranking out better and better music every year. Suzanne Vega comes to my mind. She's tagged with this stigma as a "one hit wonder" but she's a frikkin Genius with a capitol "G". She's put out so many brilliant albums since the days of "Luka", but does anybody hear about it? And it's not like this is some uptight music for art-farts only. She's has such a wide range and.... oh don't get me started! :eek


Well, it's a shame that some of the greats will attempt a comeback, and their music isn't ever heard.

But they are all out there, and they are all still working - that's the important thing. The other small ray of hope is the internet. Personally, I think everybody is blind to the giant opportunity that MP3 piracy presents to the world.

There is obviously a HUGE demand for free music. Not only do teens want to collect it, but struggling film-makers and other artist have a need to incorporate good music into their work. A thriving public domain of choice music would do wonders for American culture. Why can't some of these former "greats" donate a song or two to the public? If every artist donated one song to the public - the Majors would find a fierce competitor that they could no longer ignore.

[mr mistook]

As for book publishing, as Uncle Jim wisely advises, I will shoot for any and every Major publisher - at least to say I tried.

I look at my bookshelf and I see certain trends among the books, but I don't write like any one book on that shelf, and there is some indestructable gremlin living in my gut, who forces his bizarre influence on everything I do! I can't rid myself of my inherent weirdness!

It's not that I'm purposely TRYING to be "different" and "artsy" and every other pompous or rebellious thing. I'm just...

Oh, can't we all just get along?:lol

Anyway, I've studied the subject of "Genre" very intensively, and for all the world I can't escape the fact that I'm writing what was known in the 1800's as a "Sensation Novel".

Please note, I had no idea what a sensation novel was, and have never read one. NONETHELESS I am writing a modern sensation novel right down to the brass tacks of that genre.

Now you tell me... who on earth is going to publish such a thing? I hightly doubt it will be Harper Collins.

[Karen Ranney]

I am prejudiced, because my publisher is Harper Collins/Avon. I adore my editor and my editor's assistant.

However, I have had the pleasure of working with other editors as well, some of whom are currently at St. Martin's. You'll find that the publishing industry is relatively small and most acquiring editors have worked for more than one publisher.

Bottom line - editors want the best book they can find.
Tomorrow's trend might well be today's "slightly odd" book. My first book was considered very strange, and it was turned down by every publisher in the known universe. Zebra finally bought it and it went on to sell over 200,000 copies. Go figure.

[Nateskate]

Thanks Karen, that's awesome. And I'm honored to have people like you and Jim, and some of these others here on these threads with the rest of us.

I'm humbled being in posts with people who have honestly hit grand slams in the big leagues.

HarperCollins is a monster in my book. And now I see St. Martins coming up again and again, which will draw me to their website eventually.

[James D Macdonald]

St. Martin's is part of the Holtzbrinck conglomerate. That includes Bedford/St. Martin's, Farrar, Straus & Giroux, Henry Holt and Company, Palgrave Macmillan, Picador, St. Martin's Press, Tor Books, W.H. Freeman, Bedford, Freeman and Worth Publishing Group and Worth Publishers.

Not to say that those publishing companies aren't independent in their editorial boards and in their lines.

A rejection from Henry Holt just means try Farrar, Straus & Giroux next.

Stick with the majors. Find the right editor on the right day with the right manuscript.

There are worse things than not being published, and being published badly is one of them.

If a manuscript is rejected over and over, consider that it might not be the editors' fault -- maybe the manuscript isn't that great. Write a new, better, different one and start that one on its way.

[Nateskate]

By the way, I apologize for calling you "Jim" above, instead of James as you are listed. I think I've seen people refer to you both ways, and should ask which you prefer?

Your perspective means a lot to me since you are writing what is up my alley. "Fantasy"

From what I can see, they seem to do a pretty good job with your books, and that's the bottom line in my opinion.

And I'll just say this, I love your writing style in general. Even in your teaching thread, it's your general sense of humor that makes it enjoyable.

[Risseybug]

Ok, so I aimed low. My problem was, the big guys won't look at you without an agent, and my agent search turned up a big, giant goose egg. I think the problem there was that I write in a pretty specialized market - middle grade fiction - and there aren't too many agents out there that represent that work. At least, not as many as mainstream, adult reader fiction anyway.

I had three small publishers looking at my work, I chose one. I like what they are doing so far. I know the name of my illustrator, my editor and I are getting along marvelously. The editor in chief and I are on a first name basis LOL. Their finished product (I've bought their books) is really beautiful.

This publisher is a bit green, some might say, but if they are going up, then I can go up with them! And, if nothing else, when the time comes I can whip out a published book and send it to an agent. Maybe that'll get me the time of day.

And who would I like?? Hyperion. That or Scholastic. But I have about as much chance of getting in there as I do of sprouting a second head.

[Nateskate]

Since newbies and their books aren't given preferential treatment, if you think you've got a great book, should you hold it back and try to publish other stories first?

Some people may wonder why I ask, but I have multiple stories I've written, but never tried to publish. And I'd hate to think my best would get burried just because it was my first?

Obviously some would want to go with their best first, and it really is a gamble, because it may take your best to get noticed in the first place.

But ultimately, I want to have movie rights to one particular story, (Just in case)

[maestrowork]

There are good things and bad things about BIG or SMALL publishers. I had the same discussion with myself when I had to choose between a small IT company or a huge one many years ago. I also compare it to an actor comparing between an indie or a big studio film...

Some people make it big in small things at first (think Vin Diesel in Pitch Black, or Peter Jackson in his little indies such as Heavenly Creature) then go on the bigger things. Some people start off with the big guys immediately and become very successful... then there are all those who fail no matter if they're with the big or small guys...

I think the real issue here is how resourceful YOU are. I think there are many roads to success. Sometimes you hit the jackpot right off the bat. Sometimes you have to start from the bottom...

[mr mistook]

If you get published by a small house and the book runs it's course and goes out of print. Can a bigger place by the rights later on and re-publish?

[maestrowork]

Usually, I think, the rights revert back to you if the book is "out of print." At least most contracts would state that. So yes, you'll be able to sell it to another house. They will be buying the re-print rights.

Someone corrects me since I'm probably wrong.

The question is, why would another house want to buy it? I'd say they would want it only if it's a best seller to begin with...

[Nateskate]

I think some publishers will look at older out of print books of a certain genre.

I'm wondering how many absolutely fantastic books are sitting out of print somewhere because they never were exposed to a large market?

That's why I think its so important to find a right fit off the bat, rather than hoping to resurrect your work if someone doesn't market it well.

[vstrauss]

>> Usually, I think, the rights revert back to you if the book is "out of print." <<

When a book is taken out of print, the rights don't automatically revert--you (or your agent) have to take steps to make that happen, usually a request in writing, followed by a time period in which the publisher can choose either to reprint or revert.

For most authors, it's not easy to resell OP books.

- Victoria

[mr mistook]

Well then, I'll write my best, shoot for the top, and hope for the best. :)

[HConn]

Tor, Bantam Spectra, DAW, Avon Eos, Del Rey...

Why? Because I read their books.

[triceretops]

Lemme see...okay, I'll go with the Penguin Group because they ate up my last publisher just like they gobble down everything else that gets in their way, and I know my old editor got devoured by them and when I see that rat bastid', for editing out 150 pages of my manuscript, I'm gonna' dine on his spine...byyyyyyyy...yiiiimineeee!

Triceratops

[Nateskate]

Do any of these big names accept simultaneous submissions? If so, would you go with them first?

Actually, I can now see why you'd go with an agent, seeing that they get preferential treatment. I thought this out, that if you do these one at a time, and they all take four to six months to get back to you, well, that's not pretty in my mind.

[James D Macdonald]

Do any of these big names accept simultaneous submissions?

Check their guidelines, but probably not.

...if you do these one at a time, and they all take four to six months to get back to you, well, that's not pretty in my mind.

What's your hurry? While you're waiting to hear, write another, better, book.

If you've written a good (i.e "one that lots of people want to read") book, it'll get bought. Perhaps not at the first place, or the second, but sooner rather than later.

Don't despair.

[Nateskate]

Dr James, (a complimental name in that you are a Dr of bookology), my problem is that my blessing and curse are one. I have that Tolkien bent, that if you give me more time, I'll dicker and dicker with a story to make it better.

I could re-write until the hens come home. And again, this is a blessing and a curse. I have an extremely creative mind. I can think of a dozen ways to start the same story. And I'll second guess myself.

I'll use a term here "Fiction Theology", perhaps there's another term, but in a fantasy, there is a theology that you are introducing to the readers, within this are the rules of your particular universe, whether up is down and down is up, or how spirits and humans interact.

Well, there are many ways to introduce that theology, especially when you have a rather complex theology. You could preface the story, or introduce it along the way through the characters, or by discovery of ancient manuscripts.

Give me enough time and I'll try it all three ways.

I read Tolkien's biography (Carpenter), and now realized how valuable it was to him to have a C.S.Lewis to alternately encourage him, and light a fire under his butt. I'm convinced that without Lewis, LOTR would never have been completed.

[Jamesaritchie]

Do any of these big names accept simultaneous submissions? If so, would you go with them first?

You probably stand no chance of selling to the big boys without an agent, anyway, so the question of simultaneous submissions really doesn't arise.

If you have a novel that's good enough for a publisher to buy, it's also good enough to attract a top agent. If it can't attract a top agent, there's almost certainly a problem that will stop a publisher from buying it, even if you can convince them to read it, which is unlikely with the really big publishers.

When they say no unagented submissions, they really mean it. And even when they allow unagented submissions, they almost never buy anything.

Agents really are the gatekeepers now.

[Nateskate]

So, I guess I'm asking the wrong question then. Who are the best agents?

Or, better, what should I look out for, in that I'm not just looking for an honest agent, but one that I know who will steer me to someone who benefits me?

Do, some agents simply shoot low to score more? I think that some people are just so interested in scoring period, that it doesn't seem to matter as long as they score.

Is shooting for the top even in our hands then?

[Nateskate]

So, I guess I'm asking the wrong question then. Who are the best agents?

Or, better, what should I look out for, in that I'm not just looking for an honest agent, but one that I know who will steer me to someone who benefits me?

Do, some agents simply shoot low to score more? I think that some people are just so interested in scoring period, that it doesn't seem to matter to them as long as they score.

Is shooting for the top even in our hands then?

[vstrauss]

>>So, I guess I'm asking the wrong question then. Who are the best agents?<<

There are many ways to discover this. Read industry publications such as Publishers Weekly. Since you write fantasy, there's Locus and Chronicle, both of which report regularly on which agents are selling what books to which publishers. Check the Acknowledgements sections of your favorite books--the author may mention his/her agent. Do a websearch on writers who write books like yours--you may find an article or interview in which their agent is mentioned. Get a good market guide, such as Jeff Herman's WRITER'S GUIDE, and check the listings for agents that represent your genre.

An excellent resource for sf/fantasy/horror writers is Speculations, a monthly e-newsletter: www.speculations.com (http://www.speculations.com)

>>Or, better, what should I look out for, in that I'm not just looking for an honest agent, but one that I know who will steer me to someone who benefits me?<<

Suggestions here: www.sff.net/people/Victor...earch.html (http://www.sff.net/people/VictoriaStrauss/agentsearch.html)

General tips for avoiding scammers and amateurs here: www.sfwa.org/beware/agents.html (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/agents.html)

You're looking for a selling agent--one who regularly places books with the kind of publishers you'd like to be published by.

>>Do, some agents simply shoot low to score more?<<

Agents who shoot low, score less.

>>Is shooting for the top even in our hands then?<<

Absolutely. Shoot for a top agent, who will shoot for a top publisher. IMO, it's a waste of time to approach the big houses on your own (independent publishers are another story).

- Victoria

[Nateskate]

I have to say that you are slowly becoming one of my favorite people!

Thanks for those resources, and being kind enough to point me towards them.

I dare say that although I may be older (I wouldn't ask), that between you and James, I feel like I have a big brother and a big sister here looking out for me!

This place is a godsend. And thanks to all of you others as well, as I have benefited from much that you others have added as well.

[mr mistook]

There are many ways to discover this. Read industry publications such as Publishers Weekly. Since you write fantasy, there's Locus and Chronicle, both of which report regularly on which agents are selling what books to which publishers.

Now this is a bit of a problem for me. I'm not working in a widely established genre. I have been inspired by many authors, but there is a biographical element to my WIP, and there are inspirational elements that come from outside the universe of literature.

Technically, my book can qualify as "Urban Fantasy" - but there are elements of mystery and romance and a very strong current of intrigue that, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, happen to fit a long defuct genre known as "Sensation".

Here are my questions, for whoever can answer them. For the sake of argument, lets assume we're talking about an end result that "works" and is a "good" book:

1) Is it simply WRONG (in 2005) to approach novel writing without satisfying the guidelines of a well defined genre?

2) If it's okay to write a "hybrid" or "experimental" novel, where is thet market?

[James D Macdonald]

1) Is it simply WRONG (in 2005) to approach novel writing without satisfying the guidelines of a well defined genre?

That's like asking if it's wrong to create an interdepartmental major in college, rather than picking one of the defined majors in the course catalog. You may have a harder time finding a publisher if the publishers can't figure out how to market it. When you find a publisher who does know how to market it, you're in.


2) If it's okay to write a "hybrid" or "experimental" novel, where is that market?

You make your own market by writing something so compelling that people can't help themselves -- they want to read it.

Story trumps most everything.

<HR>

A useful agent is one who's sold books you've heard of.

<HR>

See also <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html" target="_new">this article</a>.

[mr mistook]

Thanks, Uncle Jim! :)

That's like asking if it's wrong to create an interdepartmental major in college, rather than picking one of the defined majors in the course catalog.

That's me... the weird guy on campus - the W.G.O.C.

"What's your major?"

"Uh... Specialized Modern Historical General Astro-phasic Art...ness?"






You make your own market by writing something so compelling that people can't help themselves -- they want to read it.

What? Me? Worry?

[Jamesaritchie]

<<So, I guess I'm asking the wrong question then. Who are the best agents? >>

The best agents are the ones who sell all those novels to the top publishers. Victoria has told you how to find them. Sometimes you can even call a publisher and ask for the names of some agents they've dealt with.

<<Or, better, what should I look out for, in that I'm not just looking for an honest agent, but one that I know who will steer me to someone who benefits me?>>

Same deal. You want an agent who is already selling novels to top publishers.

<<Do, some agents simply shoot low to score more? I think that some people are just so interested in scoring period, that it doesn't seem to matter as long as they score. >>

You score more by aiming high. The agent's job is to know which publisher needs and wants a given type of novel. Even bad agents typically aim as high as possible, simply because the bigger the publisher, the more money there is in it for the agent.

<<Is shooting for the top even in our hands then? >>

No, any good agent automatically aims for the biggest publisher that is in need of a given kind of novel.

I just recently, very recently, changed agents again, and part of the reason was because I wanted an agency that had ins with more publishers and in a wider variety of writing. For the first time in my life, I'm with a large agency where I may well get lost in the shuffle, but I know every type of writing I do will be covered by someone who is a specialist in that area, including screen writing.

Learning all this about the agency was no more than a matter of picking up the phone and asking.

Sometimes the direct approach is the best. I suppose it depends on how well you give phone, but even when I first started writing I ran into no resistance when simply picking up the phone and calling people.

[Nateskate]

I can't say how valuable your advice has been. I'd be like my big black lab who doesn't bark. She'll just go to the back door and stare at it and wonder why it won't open to let her outside. At least my last dog would bark to give you a clue it had to go. She's clueless.

She's cute, but she's an idiot.

[Victim 655321]

My choice hasn't yet been noted - Riverhead Books. Division of Penguin/Putnam with a reputation for building a bridge between newcomer and respected writer. Chung rae Lee, for instance, or Khaled Hosseini of Kite Runner fame.

[Nateskate]

Keep bringing on names. The more the merrier!

[STORMTURNER]

I don't know who wouldn't want Random House. I would if I never without a shadow of a doubt I was great and that "they" needed me more that I them. But, for me, the more logical source would be an independent publishing company. If you are as mediocre as I, an indie would give you and your book the time and attention it needs where distribution is concerned and appearances. I believe an indie wants more than the writer to get the book read/sold -- in the hands and hearts of the consumer.

[maestrowork]

Big house like Random House may not always be a good things. First, you're a small fish in a big pond. Sure they have the resources, but they also have tons of products and authors to contend with. And they don't have patience if your book is not a runaway hit. Sure, having a big house publishing your book can be a great thing, but it can also be a bad thing if your book doesn't sell. Big house does not equal big sales.

[vstrauss]

>>If you are as mediocre as I, an indie would give you and your book the time and attention it needs where distribution is concerned and appearances.<<

Indies can be more flexible than the large houses with risky or unusual or quirky books, but the good ones are just as selective as the large houses.

- Victoria

[Nateskate]

I'm doing my homework and taking notes.

I think a lot of writers think first of off, "Which co. benefits me the most" ahead of the status of a big name publisher. Bottom line, if it gets into the big stores, and promoted, that's what counts in the end.

I'm not sure that I know the answer yet, in that it seems the whole business is somewhat like a circus until you get your foot in the door. Famous or successful authors get to choose, the rest are seen as wannabes who are at the mercy of the business.

I hear the message, "Write a good book and you will get discovered." but I don't think getting discovered is where it ends. It's like being at a dance where all the (since I'm a guy) girls get to choose, and you have to sit there hoping to be chosen, without having a clue whether the first one who asks you to dance will be the last one to ask you to dance. That goes for agents and publishing co. That's not exactly a position of strength.

And the sad thing is that once you choose a dance partner, you are going to be wed to them for awhile, like it or not.

Call me nuts, because so many people aren't getting asked to dance at all, should I be happy to sit in a chair hoping?

Yuk! Not being famous kind of stinks, in that you are at the mercy of the waves.

If I was twenty two and had all the time in the world, fine, but I don't want to risk a partner who is going to be stepping on my feet for the next five years.

Hopefully when I'm ready to dance, I'll know where to put my chair.

[Victim 655321]

Hate to continue with it, but many larger companies WITH resources create smaller subsidiaries to handle certain kinds of book or certain books they deem higher quality. To handle less with more attention. Riverhead is like that. Best of both worlds.

[Nateskate]

You are helping to educate us. Who knows how many people your suggestions will impact? So feel free to tell us your perspective, that's what this thread is for.

[HapiSofi]

HConn answered:<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Tor, Bantam Spectra, DAW, Avon Eos, Del Rey...<hr></blockquote>Voulez-vous le skiffy stuff, eh?

[HConn]

The skiffier the better.

But I like a little mystery on the side, too. Just between you, me and this here potted plant.

[HapiSofi]

Some miscellaneous comments:

Mr. Mistook: "It's a foregone conclusion that anything I'll write is automatically rejected by the majors. I'd need to find some small, weird, possibly european publishing house, and God save me if I know who they are."

The only way to answer that question is to read books from potential publishers and see if they're anything like yours.

However, if you think your work will automatically be rejected by major houses, I don't see why you're assuming it will be accepted by respectable small ones. If there's a specialized house that knows its subject matter, knows its readers and retailers, and knows how to market the one to the other, and if your work falls within that category, then maybe you'll be happy together. Otherwise, a small house is under the same contraints as a large one -- and then some.

A large house may well have more leeway to publish odd or marginal works than a small one. The profitability of a few bestsellers can underwrite the acquisition of a great many less obviously commercial books.

PDR: "Have a good look at their new contracts and read what other writers say about how they deal with their new authors. HarperCollins aren't kind if your second book doesn't sell as well as their accountants like. They are also said to be aiming at having no mid-list authors!!!!"

What's your source on that? Is it reliable? What were their exact words? Aiming to have no midlist authors is like trying to have all the children in your school system have above-average test scores.

If your first and second book don't sell well, you're in trouble no matter who's publishing you. Distributors and bookstore chains keep track of sales. They're more willing to hope a first-timer will do well, if the publisher assures them that the book is exceptionally good, than they are to believe that an author with a modest sales record is suddenly going to take off like a rocket. They place their orders accordingly, which means that fewer copies are going to be sitting out on shelves, which means the odds of a sales turnaround are going to sink even lower.

You think it's bad to be an unpublished writer? It's far worse to be a published writer who's tied to a bad sales record, limping along like Jacob Marley with his chain of strongboxes. Too many beginning authors think their critical transaction is with the publisher. They're wrong. Their critical transaction is with the reader. If they can connect with readers, there'll always be a publisher willing to be the vehicle of that connection. If they connect with publishers but not with readers, life can only get worse. That's why Jim Macdonald says that what's hard is selling your third book. And speaking of which:

Jim Macdonald: "Seriously, start with the majors. The money is nicer, the sales are nicer, and you're working with really top-flight people."

It's not absolutely guaranteed, but that's how it tends to work.

I've gotten to intermittently observe one publishing house from its small pinchpenny early days to its much more lavish bestseller-endowed present. Back when, the publicist was a part-time freelancer who'd come in, scoop a little stack of bound galleys and advance manuscripts off a particular shelf, and bear them off to do not-very-effective things with them. It was all the house could afford.

Now they have a busy in-house publicity staff that knows the business inside and out, comes in early and stays late, and keeps a close eye on changeable matters like the requirements of review venues, and the scheduled publication dates of other houses' bestselling authors.

In the old days, a book could have the whole house behind it, but there still might not be much in the way of resources and expertise to devote to it. Now, even a small book will be the responsibility of a professional publicist.

Do small books sometimes get lost at big houses? Sure they do. They get lost even worse in big bookstores. Your best bet is to avoid writing books that are easily ignored.

Jim again: "Shoot high. You can always work your way down. It's harder to work your way up if you shoot low."

Absolutely true. Readers and reviewers tend to peg an author at the level at which he or she first comes into the field.

Nateskate: "I compare the book market to the music industry. Some of the best groups in the world couldn't get on the radio anymore. There's a madness out there. In fact, for some of the once "Best of the Best", there is no marketing at all. If you aren't flavor of the month, they really make it hard for you."

Books and music are very different industries. There's a lot more money involved in music, and that's enabled too much of the commercial music industry to cultivate a bad case of entrenched stupidity. Book publishing has tiny profit margins. Stupidity is far more likely to be self-correcting. Unfortunately, so is bad luck. Still, I'd rather work with books.

The other big difference is that in book publishing, that which goes unpublished is, with very few exceptions, unpublishable. In the music field, there really is a huge amount of excellent music which goes unrecorded and unpromoted, or is commercially released but then is let fall out of print even though it's still saleable.

This is why the music industry is excreting cinderblocks over music filesharing: not because it circumvents retail sales mechanisms, but because it circumvents the industry's distribution and promotion system. If you ever wanted proof of the proverb, "printing isn't publishing" -- which is to say, the heart of what a publisher does is to distribute, sell, and make works known to the public -- the music industry's declared war on filesharing would be it. For decades they've controlled a very profitable chokepoint in the commercial sale and distribution of music, but there's too big a pool of undistributed music that's collected behind it, and now filesharing is providing an alternate route for that music to connect with listeners. Their problem isn't that the music isn't being paid for. That just screws over the musicians, and they've never objected to that. Their problem is that music distributed via filesharing doesn't go near their distribution and promotion systems.

But I digress. We're talking about a different industry.

Mr. Mistook: "I look at my bookshelf and I see certain trends among the books, but I don't write like any one book on that shelf, and there is some indestructable gremlin living in my gut, who forces his bizarre influence on everything I do! I can't rid myself of my inherent weirdness! It's not that I'm purposely TRYING to be "different" and "artsy" and every other pompous or rebellious thing. ...

Anyway, I've studied the subject of "Genre" very intensively, and for all the world I can't escape the fact that I'm writing what was known in the 1800's as a "Sensation Novel". Please note, I had no idea what a sensation novel was, and have never read one. NONETHELESS I am writing a modern sensation novel right down to the brass tacks of that genre.

Now you tell me... who on earth is going to publish such a thing?"

I don't care what you're trying to do. I don't care how weird you are. All that matters is what gets onto the page, and how readers react to it.

As for labels, I've seen a single book repackaged as science fiction, dark fantasy, and gothic romance. I've seen ars moriendi meditations published as genre science fiction, and other religious meditations published as foot-fetishist pornography. You tell me: is The Castle of Otranto a thrilling and suspenseful gothic novel, or a Terry Gilliam-esque romp?

So you've written a novel of sensation: guilty secrets, horrid mysteries, improbable events, all very colorful; ancestry owes more to Victorian popular theatre than earlier novels; precursor of both the thriller and the genre mystery, which is to say that books that could be classed either as thrillers or genre mysteries were sold to readers who wanted more books by Wilkie Collins.

Okay.

Those can be very good or very bad. If yours is the former, you'll do just fine. (Call it a mystery in the cover letter. Fewer thoroughly bad books are submitted under the mystery flag than come in labeled thrillers or horror.) If it's not very good, the label isn't going to matter anyway.

Nateskate again: "Since newbies and their books aren't given preferential treatment, if you think you've got a great book, should you hold it back and try to publish other stories first?

Some people may wonder why I ask, but I have multiple stories I've written, but never tried to publish. And I'd hate to think my best would get burried just because it was my first?"

A good book speaks for itself. Some excellent novelists can't write short stories to save their lives.

Publishing good short stories can get your novel more attention. If yours are good, they should be published for their own sake. As with novels, stick to the top-end markets.

Mr. Mistook: "If you get published by a small house and the book runs its course and goes out of print, can a bigger place buy the rights later on and re-publish it?"

Yes. But if it's run its course and gone out of print, why should they? Unless there's some compelling reason to believe that it never reached its audience, you're better off selling another book to that other house.

Nateskate: "I think some publishers will look at older out of print books of a certain genre.

I'm wondering how many absolutely fantastic books are sitting out of print somewhere because they never were exposed to a large market?

That's why I think its so important to find a right fit off the bat, rather than hoping to resurrect your work if someone doesn't market it well."

It happens. In the wake of Tolkien's initial success in the U.S., when readers were hungry for more of the same and there wasn't much to give them, a lot of old books got dusted off and rechristened fantasy. Some of them could only have been republished in that kind of a market.

How many wonderful books have gone out of print because they were never exposed to a larger market? That's easy: far, far fewer than their authors imagine.

Okay, I'm being flip. No author ever thinks their work has justly gone out of print, but some very good books have been published, then vanished before they could find their audience. Some of those do get revived later on. Sometimes a work will hang on, staying in print, and accrete a big audience via word of mouth. Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood did that. So did the album, The Buena Vista Social Club.

There are built-in costs to keeping books in print. Hardcovers and trade paperbacks are a little easier that way. Mass market books have to sell a lot of copies to stay afloat. This is why Tor publishes its Orb line. They're good books that have definite audiences, and ought to stay in print, but don't sell enough copies to stay in print as mass-market paperbacks.

Below that is the legitimate range of small presses and POD publishers. They can keep books in print while incurring less overhead.

It's a complicated subject.

What's a really tough proposition is reviving a book that was published badly the first time around. I've seen it done. Graham Joyce's Requiem was first published as an atrocious-looking paperback original. Somehow an editor figured out that it's a very good book, and put it back into print repackaged as an upscale hardcover, where I believe it did reasonably well. Yay rah for that editor.

Rescues like that happen less often than one would wish. Most mispublished books simply fall over and die. Thomas Disch once had a book, a paperback original, published with exactly the wrong cover. It was a very nice cover. It was a good book, if you like Tom Disch's work. The cover and the book spoke to completely different audiences, and the paperback returned in the ninety percents. Some years later, Disch turned his career around with a series of thrillers and The Brave Little Toaster, so good on him. But for a while there, he was known as a good author who didn't sell.

Victoria Strauss: "When a book is taken out of print, the rights don't automatically revert--you (or your agent) have to take steps to make that happen, usually a request in writing, followed by a time period in which the publisher can choose either to reprint or revert."

If you have a properly worded contract, and a book that's clearly fallen out of print, reversion should not be a problem. At some major houses, the contracts department doesn't even ask editorial what they intend; they just issue a reversion letter. (Of course, this is much appreciated by editors at other houses who want to reprint their books.) Some large houses are balky and mingy about reversions, but if you're definitely out of print, they really don't have any excuse not to give you a reversion letter.

Nateskate: "Actually, I can now see why you'd go with an agent, seeing that they get preferential treatment."

Real agents do. Real agents have leverage. Scam, gormless, or underperforming agents don't.

Jamesaritchie: "You probably stand no chance of selling to the big boys without an agent, anyway, so the question of simultaneous submissions really doesn't arise.

If you have a novel that's good enough for a publisher to buy, it's also good enough to attract a top agent. If it can't attract a top agent, there's almost certainly a problem that will stop a publisher from buying it, even if you can convince them to read it, which is unlikely with the really big publishers."

I could take you into a Barnes&Noble right now and start pointing out books that were bought from agentless authors who were previously unknown to the editor who did the buying.

A good agent is a good thing to have, though. Most of the authors I'd be pointing out to you do have agents now.

Another resource for agent hunters: On the Getting of Agents. (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)

Stormturner: "I don't know who wouldn't want Random House. I would if I never without a shadow of a doubt I was great and that "they" needed me more that I them. But, for me, the more logical source would be an independent publishing company. If you are as mediocre as I, an indie would give you and your book the time and attention it needs where distribution is concerned and appearances. I believe an indie wants more than the writer to get the book read/sold -- in the hands and hearts of the consumer."

Let me say with all kindness and respect that you're dead wrong. Nobody would work in the publishing industry if they didn't love books. Good editors and good agents passionately want their books to succeeed.

You'll already have seen my earlier remarks about big houses vs. small. There are some good small houses. There are some not so situations at big houses. What you won't find is a publisher of any size that wants to devote a lot of time and attention to a mediocre writer. Your answer is to stop being a mediocre writer. Nothing else will serve.

[vstrauss]

>>At some major houses, the contracts department doesn't even ask editorial what they intend; they just issue a reversion letter.<<

This has never happened for me. In each case (one independent, two large houses) I've had to specifically request reversion.

- Victoria

[HapiSofi]

Sure, you have to request it. The sweet part is that they don't always check with editorial before they say yes.

[Nateskate]

I appreciate your insights.

I know a bit about the music industry, but I'm feeling my way around, trying to figure out the publishing industry.

Honestly, if I had planned this better, I'd have written a simple novel. But I ended up pulling a Tolkien, in that I wound up with a monster project, but no "Inklings" or C.S. Lewis to light a fire under my butt, or provide the occasional pat on the back.

In a sense I've been taking a crash course on "What not to do" as well as "What to do".

Having written the story "Before" figuring out the industry", and the general rules of thumb, I made book one too long. (150,000 words) So, as I was ready to hit the launch pad, I pulled back, and now I'm rewriting my little fingers off. I wrote a whole new intro to speed up the pace, then shortened the space between dramatic moments, and then I have to cut book one short, and rewrite the ending.

[mr mistook]

Hapi, thanks very much! Believe me, I'll do my very best to write an A+ novel. Thanks also for explaining the sensation novel so succinctly. You have given one weirdo some hope :)

[DarkHaven80]

What does everyone think of the Dorchester Publisher line, such as Leisure, Love Spell, etc? Was curious on trying them later on as I love their horror line, and see they do take new authors from time to time.

[Nateskate]

We're not ignoring it. I don't know the answer. Hopefully those who do will be back from vacation soon.