Using snippets of copyrighted song lyrics...

underthecity · Jun 25, 2007

You'll need permission for any song lyric you use. Consult ascap or bmi for the copyright holder. In the case of End of the Innocence, see this page for the copyright holder. In this case, you would contact Woody Creek Music for permission.

Search for the copyright holder in either ascap or bmi for any song you use, then you must contact that holder for permission. They can charge hundreds to thousands of dollars for the permission depending on the kind of book.

If you don't get permission ahead of time, the publisher will insist that you do. And it can take time, or it can be really fast. But the publisher won't use the lyrics without the permission. For example, see Stephen King's The Shining for song permission examples. (He used Bad Moon Rising.) Also, Christine used a number of lyrics.

This is what you must do before using the lyrics in your book. The publisher probably will not pay for it for you. That's kind of the way it goes.

allen

Pat~ · Jun 25, 2007

What Allen said. Song permissions are very expensive and difficult to obtain at times, and typically you secure and pay for your permissions. If it were me, I'd leave the lyrics out if at all possible, and try to establish mood in some other way.

Atlantis · Jun 25, 2007

Hmmm. I've been wondering about this as well. I have a nightclub scene in my book where a bad of mythological creatures sing "the monster mash" the song fits really well in the scene, but if it causes a problem if the book get published, I'll rather take it out then go through all the hoops to try and get copy right permission.

JoNightshade · Jun 25, 2007

I really can't stand it when people use song lyrics in stories. That's just a personal preference, but it seems like if you need to set the mood, you should be able to do that with your own narrative.

Zoombie · Jun 25, 2007

I think you can get away with mentioning song titles. I'm sure the songwriters won't mind the free publicity.

underthecity · Jun 25, 2007

Oh, you can mention the title all you want. Just not lyrics.

allen

NicoleMD · Jun 25, 2007

I like to use lyrics, but I make them up myself. They're corny, but most song lyrics are when you take away the music.

Nicole

job · Jun 25, 2007

As long as the subject's up on the board here -- this 'you must get permission' is not just for lyrics. It's true for all poems in copyright.

Title -- No permission needed.
Lyrics or lines from the poem -- Needs permission.

This has nothing to do with whether the copyright holder wants publicity or not. It's what protection and rights he has under current interpretation of the law.

johnzakour · Jun 25, 2007

Yeah, chances are pretty good your publisher won't want to deal with this.

In my first novel I had my mc hum the words to "The Bradey Bunch..." They had me rewrite the words to a futuristic version!

Dancre · Jun 25, 2007

What about lines from other novels? I'm assuming you don't need copyright from say, Charles Dickens, but what about something published from 1950 and on?

Beware_of_Italics · Jun 25, 2007

I've been wondering about this, too. In my latest WIP I've used a few lines of song lyrics twice, and think it does add to my story. (Humor-wise). Well, drat.

I really liked those two little scenes. They won't be the same if only the title is mentioned.

Kristin

triceretops · Jun 25, 2007

I'll vouch for the expense of copyrighted lyrics. They wanted 50 bucks for four words from me in the song Luck Be a Lady Tonight. I told them to shove it! They also wanted to know my print run so they esculate the amount. I told them I DIDN'T KNOW the amount since the book hadn't even hit press and it was most likely POD. Oh, the humanity of it all!

Tri

underthecity · Jun 25, 2007

Barbarique said:
But it certainly can't hurt to ask, right?

Not at all. I tried the same thing for my third book. I wanted to use an Anita Oday lyric from a song that came out in the 1940s. Turned out there was a 50/50 split between two copyright holders. I got a quote from one, and I contacted the other but they never wrote back.

So, I never used it. Book turned out just fine, though.

allen

job · Jun 25, 2007

Dancre said:
What about lines from other novels? I'm assuming you don't need copyright from say, Charles Dickens, but what about something published from 1950 and on?

Copyright law specifically allows 'Fair Use' of copyright works.

That's why you can write 'his hand explored my patella like a large, inquisitive spider' without checking through the entire body of modern literature to make sure it hasn't been said before.

That's why you can quote passages in a review.

You get 'Fair Use' of any work.

Now ... poems and song lyrics have more stringent 'Fair Use' limits than longer prose works.

The general idea is that 20 or 30 words from a poem may be a significant portion of the work. But 20 or 30 or even 200 words would be an insignificant portion of a 350 page novel.

If you're planning to quote modern writers ... you might drop by the Stanford site. Here

herdon · Jun 25, 2007

Fair use as it applies to this situation would come down to a matter of proportion which is not something that is well-defined legally. As Job said, while a line out of a book might easily fall within fair use, a single line from a song/poem might not.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. The publisher is the one who is going to make the call on whether or not to secure permission or to change the work so as to not violate the copyright. Unless you have written it in such a way that it is intrigal to the work, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 25, 2007

Havlen said:
Fair use as it applies to this situation would come down to a matter of proportion which is not something that is well-defined legally. As Job said, while a line out of a book might easily fall within fair use, a single line from a song/poem might not.

No, it really wouldn't. Fair use only applies if you go to court. It's not a right.

Read the Copyright FAQ for some useful information.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 25, 2007

job said:
You get 'Fair Use' of any work.

No you don't. You really don't. Fair use is not a right, and it applies to a very limited set of circumstances. You can potentially use fair use as a defense when a copyright claim goes to court. The thing to do is keep track of what you use, who owns it, where you got it, where you use it, and let your publisher know.

Pat~ · Jun 25, 2007

I'd heard you could use up to 2 lines of a poem without permissions--but I may be wrong...

johnzakour · Jun 25, 2007

People, this is very easy. Using lyrics from published songs isn't worth the hassel. Why spend, energy and money on something that doesn't really advance your plot?

It's going to be the publisher's call and chances are very good that they won't want to deal with it.

Wouldn't your time be better spent improving the story?

Beware_of_Italics · Jun 25, 2007

Barbarique said:
A hassle? Perhaps so, but worth it to me because I really believe the lyrics provide an extra dimension to my story. (Think of it as plot enhancement instead of plot advancement.) A few simple lines from a wistful love long can imbue a scene with poignancy beyond what can be accomplished (in my case at least) by word power alone. Sort of like the right accessory.

I agree with that 100% That's exactly how I feel about it, too. Plot "enhancement" is the perfect word.

And you're right. It can't hurt to ask. I really want to keep those lyrics in if this story ever gets published.

Oh! Medievalist, I really like your avatar!

Kristin

Nakhlasmoke · Jun 25, 2007

just going to give my readerly opinion here. A snippet of song has never enhanced any scene in any book I've read because a) I either don't know that song at all, so it's wasted on me, or b) I do recognise it, and I get pulled out of the story because then I start thinking about the author's taste in music.

I personally don't think it's worth it.

johnzakour · Jun 25, 2007

Trust me. I've been through this. It's not worth it.

Besides why put another person's words into your story?

Looking back now I'm quite glad Penguin and Daw had me write my own lyrics. Much more rewarding.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 25, 2007

A two-line snippet of song can cost 10K.

And mostly publishers are aghast at the very thought.

johnzakour · Jun 25, 2007

Medievalist said:
A two-line snippet of song can cost 10K.

And mostly publishers are aghast at the very thought.

Yes, it's an unneeded costly expense.

Chances are those lyrics will cost more than the publisher will spend on cover art and cover art can help sell a book.

Nobody ever says, "Oh I need to buy that book! I understand they use some lyrics from a cool song in it!"

Using snippets of copyrighted song lyrics...

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