BDSM and Erotica

I agree with you. If I'm buying a BDSM book, I expect pain to be involved. Rough sex in an alley? Heck yeah, I want to read that.

As I said on the blog, both reviews would make me want to buy it, because, frankly, that's what I like. I get irritated when a book is supposed to be BDSM and it really isn't there.

I can't imagine it is bdsm without pain, submission, domination, etc. Isn't that like having suchi without fish? Otherwise, it's just, well, sex. Eewwwww.

Put it this way, if some hot dominatrix grabbed me in an alley and made me perform horrible sex acts while wielding a riding crop, then said: "How was that for BDSM?" I'd smile and say, "That all ya got?"
Seriously, I think it's all on a spectrum such that more "vanilla" types (and I use that term in a derogatory manner ) will perceive a little spanking and handcuffs as BDSM, whereas those into the more, well, non-vanilla practices will not consider it bdsm until the ball-gag and single-tail get brought out. I am surprised someone on the vanilla end would even buy a bdsm-related book, aren't there plenty of erotic-type spanking books out there?
I think someone wandered into the wrong campsite, frankly, and did not like what they found. Nothing wrong with the campsite, or the person who wandered into it, just one of those disconnects.

I agree with Mark totally.

When I'm searching for an erotica book (and I'm not just saying BDSM but all types), I purposely look for one with a warning on it ("This book contains possibly offensive material or something similiar.) because otherwise they tend to be a bit on the tame side for my taste. It's a trend I don't care for. If I pay good money for a book that is supposed to contain BDSM, I want some rough sex, damn it!

Hey now, nothing wrong with a little bit of light spanking now and again. With or without furry handcuffs (anyone actually tried using those?!).

pepperlandgirl said:

See, that's what I was thinking Mark. I was confused by the tone of the review, like she was shocked our BDSM erotica had, well, rough sex.

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Perhaps off topic, but something that is interesting in my opinion... I watched a doco once (Canadian I believe) that followed the first year of a woman in her job as film censor.

What was fascinating was the criteria by which films did or didn't make it past the censors. At times it seemed bizarre. Something that to me seemed quite innocuous would fail to meet standards, other very graphic and blatant sexual scenes were OK. But a major criteria was the whether the act appeared to devalue women. For example bukake, and watersports, were definite no-nos, being construed as objectifying women to an unacceptable degree.

I doubt that this is directly related to erotic literature, though I do wonder whether the context of pleasure/pain themes does affect how it is subsequently viewed. "Rough sex" could come across as erotic, or on the other had as gratuitous violence I guess, and perhaps depending on whose perspective we are talking. Talking in general mind.

It seem like a lot of what is in erotic romance is so light as BDSM it almost doesn't count--not real lifestyle stuff but something meant to add a little gratuitous 'naughty' to a story without being at all challenging to the norm.

pepperlandgirl said:

Well, I can't speak for all BDSM erotica, but our particular novel is M/M, so there are now women being objectified/devalued. And I don't believe our sub was being objectified/devalued, either. I could very much understand rough/violent sex to be shocking and a big turn-off if both partners weren't fully on board. And we do go to some slightly scary places--there's blood letting, whipping, gang bangs, chaining.....but our sub is always the one leading them to those places!

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Yes, I must emphasise that my post was a kind of general aside, and there are certainly lots of examples of literature that use objectification as the main theme.

I often get back to Story of O, I guess because I think it is a stand-out novel of its genre and one that quite frankly did it for me in a big way. The objectification of O is quite brutal, yet as you say of your own work, is as a consequence of her own choices. In fact everything that you are describing are favourite themes of my own.

Absolutely on the threesome too. I wrote a whole novel about how a threesome forms up to the point of the first sexual encounter. Reviewers have been very nice but some what confused by 'menage' that is not erotica.

As someone who writes BDSM that focuses on D/s, I'm curious as to why you would expect pain as an automatic element of something labelled BDSM rather than S/M -- if it's labelled S/M, that's another matter, but it's quite possible to write an intense D/s power exchange story that involves no sado-masochism at all.

JulesJones said:

As someone who writes BDSM that focuses on D/s, I'm curious as to why you would expect pain as an automatic element of something labelled BDSM rather than S/M -- if it's labelled S/M, that's another matter, but it's quite possible to write an intense D/s power exchange story that involves no sado-masochism at all.

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I'll take a stab, and you make a good point. I think, though, that what we're saying is not that pain or s&m have to be a part of a bdsm story, only that it is illogical to read a bdsm story and then be surprised by, or object to, a passage or two that deal with physical pain. In other words, while the mental element of a d/s relationship could take up an entire bdsm novel, I would suggest it altogether unlikely (or maybe unrealistic?) for such a relationship to be entirely devoid of some form of pain or corporal punishment.
Anyone else have views?

MarkEsq said:

In other words, while the mental element of a d/s relationship could take up an entire bdsm novel, I would suggest it altogether unlikely (or maybe unrealistic?) for such a relationship to be entirely devoid of some form of pain or corporal punishment.
Anyone else have views?

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I'm coming from the perspective of pretty well a rank beginner with no knowledge of how the publishing industry views these things. So rather my own intuitive feel...

Firstly, to me the generic sense of the term BDSM does definitely suggest to me a pain element.

Your comment on an entire novel with a d/s theme, but devoid of pain... I could definitely read such a book (my own reading is not extensive enough perhaps, wouldn't examples already exist?). My gut feeling is that it would take a quite high skill level to do it well for something so long. How you'd label the genre I've no idea.

But in terms of short work my greatest interest would tend to be in the exploration of the more subtle, psychological end of the d/s genre, and as I try to develop my own skills to where I feel comfortable sharing some of my work (why in terms of erotica do I find that scary, a bit like getting naked in public LOL ... something I need to get past) that psychological aspect is definitely what I'd personally love to explore, as I guess is the case with many of the folk here.

pepperlandgirl said:

But inherent in BDSM is sadomasochism. And sadomasochism is almost as much of an umbrella term as "BDSM" but, to me, that means an element of physical/emotional/mental pain. I'd expect a book that does not include S/M to be labeled D/s, just as I'd expect a book that does not include D/s to be labeled S/M.

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THat's what I was gonna say.

Looks like there's a terminology difference here. For me BDSM is an umbrella term covering the range of activities, but *not* necessarily including all of them at once. So I wouldn't be surprised by the absence of one of the elements.

Since my primary interest is D/s, I might be be less interested in something that had S/M or bondage without a clear D/s element, but I wouldn't think it had been mislabelled if it was labelled BDSM. I prefer my publisher to label my D/s books as D/s, because I think that makes it clearer what the specific focus of the book is, but I'd see "BDSM" as a catalogue label as a general broad category rather than "this one has S/M *and* bondage *and* D/s".

Akiwiguy -- I normally work at novella length, but some of mine are basically explorations of the psychology of D/s. Emily Veinglory reviewed one here: http://emilyveinglory.livejournal.com/33624.html

JulesJones said:

Akiwiguy -- I normally work at novella length, but some of mine are basically explorations of the psychology of D/s. Emily Veinglory reviewed one here: http://emilyveinglory.livejournal.com/33624.html

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Thanks for that JJ, and soon I must start actually reading these kinds of works from AW members to get a proper appreciation. Your novella sounds intriguing.

There was something in the review that caught my eye... without the standard trappings and roles of BDSM as they are commonly written in erotic romance ...because I'd been thinking a lot about something as this thread has evolved. I like that statement, and was thinking along similar lines, but more to do with real-world "trappings and roles". There are views held by some dom/sub life-stylists that to me appear almost snobby, as though it should be some arcane topic that only the truly initiated could ever understand.

I personally find the subtleties of a far broader spectrum of sexual behaviour far more fascinating, and almost all of my own imagery has some element of d/s whether it could be labelled so or not. In fact there are quite compelling arguments that all human sexual activity inherently and inevitably is based on power exchanges.

Probably I'm stating the obvious, but there's something about that phrase I've quoted from veinglory's review that I can really relate to. I guess labels are inevitable for marketing purposes, but they irk me in real life. That's all.

When you read something with BDSM in it, you would expcect rough sex...I certainly would

Aspiringwriter -- the thing is, I *don't* expect rough sex as a given just because it's labelled BDSM. Partly because some of the real-life BDSM relationships I know of don't involve rough sex. It's always an interesting experience going around a kitchenware shop with a domme who's in a "sensation play and giving orders" relationship...

Thank you JulesJones.
I'm much more interested in the power exchange. Pain doesn't interest me except in relation to the power exchange. Intense pain doesn't have to be there for the book to be gritty and hard core in other ways IMHO
A scene which sounds really excruciating and where I'm worried about mutilation is occasionally a turn off.

Ditto what Jules Jones says. Among other things, I write DS fiction - only DS, no pain or corporal punishment - so no, I don't assume that a BDSM novel will involve pain or rough sex. In fact, I don't even assume it will involve sex. And as a reader, I prefer DS fiction to bondage fiction or SM fiction.

But I also assume that most BDSM novels will involve heavy pain. It sounds to me as though the reviewer was simply expressing their personal preference, which I, personally, would want to know as an author. I mean, if I'm writing about World War II, and the reviewer finds all wars after the Civil War to be boring, I'd like to know that so that I can take their remarks into account accordingly.

Now, if I were a reviewer, I'd recuse myself if I found myself reading a genre (heavy BDSM fiction) that I didn't enjoy. But that's just me.

Veinglory wrote:

"It seem like a lot of what is in erotic romance is so light as BDSM it almost doesn't count--not real lifestyle stuff"

*Ahem* - I trust that you're not saying that nobody does light BDSM in real lifestyles?

I know what type of "flirting with radical without actually being radical" fiction you're condemning, but let's not get that mixed up with the issue of whether "real" or "heavy" always involves pain. I can imagine a BDSM couple who had no corporal punishment, no bondage, no SM - but they were a 24/7 master and slave to one another. How light is that?

pepperland wrote:

"But inherent in BDSM is sadomasochism."

The term BDSM arose as a collection of three abbreviations: BD, DS, and SM. These days, quite a few people leave out the DS when they think of BDSM, so there's a possibility for confusion.

I think what this thread reveals is that the term "BDSM fiction" is a general one that doesn't give regular BDSM readers enough information to make educated choices about their reading choices. I'd like to hope that the blurbs do.